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On May 24 2011 12:13 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:11 babylon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss. Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will. Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame. Idra is as good imo as any Korean Zerg bar Nestea, Nestea's quite a bit ahead of anyone else but I'd say Sen, Idra, July and Losira are about the same and players like Dimaga and Morrow aren't any worse than Zenio, Min and Kyrix.
Unfortunately, IdrA was convincingly 2-0'd by Zenio and 2-1'd by Sen recently, with his one victory over Sen being a cheese victory and one of his losses to Zenio being ... a game he really should not have lost. I'd love to back him up here as I'm a fan, but he hasn't been pulling in the results recently and has himself stated that he's at a distinct disadvantage when compared to those players who have access to the Korean ladder. All this without even covering the fact that ZvZ is supposed to be his best match-up.
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On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online.
....and Polt.prime 4:0 MC in the GSL.
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On May 24 2011 12:19 Blasphemi wrote:
Except Naniwa is a better player than Thorzain overall and his results certainly demonstrate it.
Any decent player can beat anyone in a single series, MC lost to Polt for example, Idra lost to Nazgul, Jinro lost to those zerg players in the up and down. Even Flash/Jaedong lose to far lesser players.
But overall the best players are consistant and more often than not they make the business end of tournaments. Which is why Naniwa is better than Thorzain and MC is better than everyone.
Consistency is certainly highly valued, but it could just as well speak to the strength of the competition. Naniwa is more successful from a tournaments point of view, but did he really face the same kind of competition in MLG that Thorzain faced in TSL?
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On May 24 2011 12:31 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:13 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:11 babylon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss. Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will. Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame. Idra is as good imo as any Korean Zerg bar Nestea, Nestea's quite a bit ahead of anyone else but I'd say Sen, Idra, July and Losira are about the same and players like Dimaga and Morrow aren't any worse than Zenio, Min and Kyrix. Unfortunately, IdrA was convincingly 2-0'd by Zenio and 2-1'd by Sen recently, with his one victory over Sen being a cheese victory and one of his losses to Zenio being ... a game he really should not have lost. I'd love to back him up here as I'm a fan, but he hasn't been pulling in the results recently and has himself stated that he's at a distinct disadvantage when compared to those players who have access to the Korean ladder. All this without even covering the fact that ZvZ is supposed to be his best match-up.
But at the same time he was 4-0 in the NASL before the ZvZ's and he won the IPL. I know that it wasn't rammed with amazing players but Kiwi and Select are definitely worth opponents.
Sen's never actualy won anything, July lost to anypro pretty badly and so did Losira to SC so I don't think it's too unreasonable to group them. I'm probably being kind to Sen really seen as he's never really had any success even though he always seem to play a really solid game.
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On May 24 2011 12:33 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:19 Blasphemi wrote:
Except Naniwa is a better player than Thorzain overall and his results certainly demonstrate it.
Any decent player can beat anyone in a single series, MC lost to Polt for example, Idra lost to Nazgul, Jinro lost to those zerg players in the up and down. Even Flash/Jaedong lose to far lesser players.
But overall the best players are consistant and more often than not they make the business end of tournaments. Which is why Naniwa is better than Thorzain and MC is better than everyone.
Consistency is certainly highly valued, but it could just as well speak to the strength of the competition. Naniwa is more successful from a tournaments point of view, but did he really face the same kind of competition in MLG that Thorzain faced in TSL?
Drewbie, Machine, Tyler, Agh, Kiwikaki(twice) and Select vs Fruitdealer (with lag), Naniwa, MC, Kas.
I don't think they're that different given the extra players Naniwa had to beat. Plus Naniwa still made the final of TSL which is an achievement too, Nani won the Gadget Show tournament as well and made the final of the Road to Korea.
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On May 24 2011 12:36 Blasphemi wrote:
But at the same time he was 4-0 in the NASL before the ZvZ's and he won the IPL. I know that it wasn't rammed with amazing players but Kiwi and Select are definitely worth opponents.
Sen's never actualy won anything, July lost to anypro pretty badly and so did Losira to SC so I don't think it's too unreasonable to group them. I'm probably being kind to Sen really seen as he's never really had any success even though he always seem to play a really solid game.
Waitasec. So all of a sudden you're saying major tournament winnings aren't the only way to judge player skill?
That's completely different from what you've been preaching all along in the last few pages when you expressed skepticism about the Chinese players and said you wouldn't really consider them world-class until they participate in and win more tournaments.
Though I guess you can be forgiven there. Sen's a fucking hilarious baller. 
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On May 24 2011 12:31 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:13 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:11 babylon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss. Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will. Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame. Idra is as good imo as any Korean Zerg bar Nestea, Nestea's quite a bit ahead of anyone else but I'd say Sen, Idra, July and Losira are about the same and players like Dimaga and Morrow aren't any worse than Zenio, Min and Kyrix. Unfortunately, IdrA was convincingly 2-0'd by Zenio and 2-1'd by Sen recently, with his one victory over Sen being a cheese victory and one of his losses to Zenio being ... a game he really should not have lost. I'd love to back him up here as I'm a fan, but he hasn't been pulling in the results recently and has himself stated that he's at a distinct disadvantage when compared to those players who have access to the Korean ladder. All this without even covering the fact that ZvZ is supposed to be his best match-up.
Zenio has AWFUL (>40%) results for ZvP and ZvT, Sen has AWFUL results in ZvT and has good ZvP results.
IdrA may not be amazing at ZvZ, but all those games with sen and zenio were pretty close. A lot of them he was actually ahead and points and dropped it because he didn't understand late game ZvZ, something that is easily remedied over time.
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Yea, Sen's big weakness is his ZvT. It's stopped him cold in most of the tournaments he's participated in - against Boxer in TSL, Strelok in HDWT, Loner in Blizzcon. He looks visibly weaker playing against Terran as he does against the other two MUs, though for a time he also had trouble with ZvZ. With Sen, you really have to look at his MUs as he's really good at ZvP, perhaps because he off-races as Protoss and does very well with it. Maybe he should consider off-racing as Terran as well 
But yes, you can't judge a player's skill solely by their tournament results or many of the players we hold up as ballers wouldn't quality. I can see Thorzain play and know how good he is, whether he's won as much as Naniwa or not. I can do the same for Sen and XiaoT.
Though, results do still matter.
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On May 24 2011 12:32 TDN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. ....and Polt.prime 4:0 MC in the GSL.
Not unless you're counting the games from GSL2...
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On May 24 2011 13:16 blah_blah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:32 TDN wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. ....and Polt.prime 4:0 MC in the GSL. Not unless you're counting the games from GSL2...
That fits completely with what he said. They all have GSL in the name, right?
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Just like to say that a direct matchup between two players doesn't determine who the overall better player is.
Example, IdrA lost to Sen and Zenio. Is he a better player overall? Tough to say. Is he worse at ZvZ? Yea, looks like it. I would think IdrA is definately better than both of them at ZvT. Even while in Korea he played the only ZvTs he ever lost were against Jinro (when he arguably one of the top 2 or 3 terrans in the world) and MVP (which was an awesome series that was extremely close).
ZvP Sen is probably the best of the bunch. But IdrA has really started to figure it out lately. Zenio has never really impressed much in ZvP.
I don't know, I think its fair to say that IdrA, July, LosirA, are probably about the same level. I don't think any of are capable of winning a GSL right now, but all of them can go deep in Code S. You might be able to include Sen in that group, but I don't think you can include Zenio (well, he certainly hasn't shown the potential to go deep in the GSL).
Although it is pretty clear Nestea is baller good and way better than any other zerg on the planet.
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great an all toss final.
Gonna be interestin to watch
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On May 24 2011 11:22 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:46 TeWy wrote:On May 24 2011 10:43 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 10:34 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 10:32 Blasphemi wrote:
I expect MC to take this now. He's a master of PvP and seems to excel in the LAN enviroment. He's only a master of PvP because of his micro but I think the Chinese players have micro that rivals his. And since these players are ex-WC3 pros, they should be pretty comfortable in a LAN environment especially in their own home country. PvP is basically 95% micro so I'd say that's fine. MC has sick macro, game sense and decision making too. Grubby, Moon and Lyn have showed that WC3 skills don't translate too well into Sc2 but we'll see. Top 4 TSL beg to differ. I'd like to have someone answer this for me because I'm genuinely not trying to be ignorant here - when we say so and so was a WC3 player, at what level are we using that term. I know Moon/Grubby/Lyn were the mega-pros, but saying someone like Thorzain or Hasu is a War3 player, is that something along the lines of very casual clan/team playing, no actual tournament wins? I personally believe that much of the community is throwing or using the term former-BW/WC3 player very loosely here and it doesn't mean much if they were a blatant amateur or less in that respective game.
Thorzain and Kas were the best European Humans after ToD stopped playing.
HasuObs has been a pro Undead playing for Mouz for several years (at his peak he was the best, in the end he was TOP3, just below XLord and Happy).
Naniwa has been a very talented Undead player (top 5 European UD) who even bet Grubby (best Orc in Europe) in a MU reputed for its imbalance (Orc vs UD).
But anyway, it's really stupid right now to keep tracks on what game were all these guys playing before....
It's logical that War3 players are doing better in Europe/China where they are a dominant demographic while in South Korea it's the absolute contrary.
And I can bet that in 2-3 years, at least 50% of the semi pros/pro will have no serious War3/Starcraft background.
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On May 24 2011 12:31 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:13 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:11 babylon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss. Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will. Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame. Idra is as good imo as any Korean Zerg bar Nestea, Nestea's quite a bit ahead of anyone else but I'd say Sen, Idra, July and Losira are about the same and players like Dimaga and Morrow aren't any worse than Zenio, Min and Kyrix. Unfortunately, IdrA was convincingly 2-0'd by Zenio and 2-1'd by Sen recently, with his one victory over Sen being a cheese victory and one of his losses to Zenio being ... a game he really should not have lost. I'd love to back him up here as I'm a fan, but he hasn't been pulling in the results recently and has himself stated that he's at a distinct disadvantage when compared to those players who have access to the Korean ladder. All this without even covering the fact that ZvZ is supposed to be his best match-up.
"he hasnt been pulling in the results recently" LOL
so Idra dominates kiwkaki and select and takes 1st in IPL, wins nearly every NASL game until he verses code s caliber players like sen and zenio, then you say he hasnt been pulling results..
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the sc2 community is a pretty crazy place, my initial reaction is to yell and scream about how idra is on top of the world and how toss is op etc etc.
but then I think of all the sports talk (hockey where I live) and peoples thoughts/speculations on players/teams and I start to realize how far e-sports has come.
I hope that pros don't get upset about false things said about them, because it's pretty cool that people passionately care about their performances.
/random thoughts from a Canadian at 4am.
in other news, I absolutely love the chinese players' interviews lol. I take it that Loner is no longer the best chinese player? Because he did not seem all that good in the GSL, and now we've got other chinese players talking about how bad EU and NA is >_<.
pretty crazy stuff in the world of starcraft.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
So did morrow and idra both lose? Cant see the results :o
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On May 24 2011 17:01 Beyonder wrote:
So did morrow and idra both lose? Cant see the results :o
yep 
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On May 24 2011 17:01 Beyonder wrote:
So did morrow and idra both lose? Cant see the results :o
Day 2 Ro8:
+ Show Spoiler +Nv.xiaOt 2 - 0 EG.IdrA
WE.Gigabyte.Lovett 2 - 0 mouz.MorroW
Semi-final match-ups in Shanghai:
+ Show Spoiler +WE.2012.Lovecd vs WE.Gigabyte.Lovett
oGs.MC vs Nv.xiaOt
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
He he, saw that one coming. Especially Xiaot is just the better player. Too bad about the stack of protosses tho TT
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in other news, I absolutely love the chinese players' interviews lol. I take it that Loner is no longer the best chinese player? Because he did not seem all that good in the GSL, and now we've got other chinese players talking about how bad EU and NA is >_<.
Not even close. He hasn't been the best player since 2011 started. He really hit his peak at BlizzCon when he went head to head with Genius in the finals (and that was when Terran was seriously overpowered).
If you guys want to watch out for a Chinese Terran player, keep your eye on TylooInfi. He's a top 5 WC3 player who is currently ranked #1 on the SC2 grandmaster ladder despite still not officially switching yet. If you look at Tyloo's webpage, he isn't even listed on their SC2 roster. That's because he's just laddering right now, and is only playing WC3 competitively. If he switches, it'd make him the best WC3 player to switch so far. And before you bring up Grubby, Moon, and Lyn, those guys are more like historical legends, the Boxers of WC3 if you will, whereas Infi is top 5 RIGHT NOW.
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EPT
