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On May 24 2011 11:35 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:29 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:28 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 24 2011 11:18 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:14 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:09 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:06 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:04 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:02 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 10:55 iamahydralisk wrote:
[quote]
um, what? there's no logical way you can possibly draw that conclusion.
Also, Kas and Hasu have achieved way more than Moon and Lyn in SC2. Lyn was Code S for two seasons and got a Ro8, that's a bigger achievement than anything Kas or Hasu have managed. Moon got second at IEM which is better than 2nd in Copenhagen for Kas and obviously better than anything Hasu has managed. Hasu and Kas have done more in foreign tournaments than Moon and Lyn. Not to mention the fact that Kas and Hasu are better than Moon and Lyn (pretty sure most people would agree with this). Random foreign tournaments don't really mean much if anything. Like Dimaga has won a million little tournaments as opposed to Nestea who's won two GSL's or Idra's who's won an IPL and an MLG, which is more impressive? You're obviously completely biased towards the Korean scene. Seeing as how the final four of the TSL were all European, "random foreign tournaments" obviously mean something. Also, you're comparing apples (Nestea) to oranges (Moon and Lyn). To even imply that Moon and Lyn are anywhere near Nestea is lolable. TSL is not a random foreign tournament. But neither Hasu or Kas won it, or made the final and reaching the semis of the TSL is nowhere near as hard as making Code S and reaching the Ro8. If you were to say Thorzain or Naniwa has achieved more than Lyn or Moon I'd agree with you. Everyone should be biased towards the Korean scene as it is of a considerably higher standard than EU or NA, so of course doing well in Korea means more than doing well elsewhere. Naturally if you do very well in EU/NA it outweighs KOR achievements, so for example Naniwa has achieved more than HongUn but Hasu has not achieved more than Inca. It's not a difficult concept to understand. First of all, it's entirely debatable that the Korean scene is of "considerably higher standard." This isn't BW, and Koreans aren't owning every foreign tourney they play in. Secondly, Kas and Hasu have done very well in Europe, so you're pretty much contradicting yourself there. Ummm, what? Because a Korean player won the TSL, right? Online tournaments literally mean nothing.
Then please don't watch and comment in threads of them.
I'm sure you won't be missed.
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On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa.
Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else.
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On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else.
Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant.
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On May 24 2011 11:51 HeroHenry wrote:
CatZ's macro is so bad.
This is not the EG Master's Cup thread. :p
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On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record.
Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward.
Some GSL players appear quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and time spent practicing, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches.
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On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant.
Again, that's entirely debatable. It's impossible to know until we see the best foreigners play the best Koreans now (not two months ago, because SC2 is evolving at a very rapid pace).
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On May 24 2011 11:55 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record. Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward. Some GSL players are really quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and effort, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches.
Thorzain wouldn't even have won the TSL if Nani didn't completely choke in the final game and nothing about Thorzain's results outside of TSL suggests such a baseless theory.
Inca is also very good in PvT and he is literally the best PvPer in the world, which isn't a small accomplishment and besides Inca is not the only person Nestea had made look sub par, just look at Jinro this season.
They have competed with MC in the sense that he hasn't all killed them every time (although he has all killed foreigners 5 times across 8 games played, not including his game versus lesser known players), but overall he's rolled them pretty hard and won both of the European LANS he's attending, the evidence overwhelming suggests MC is a boss who is better than foreigners.
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On May 24 2011 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Again, that's entirely debatable. It's impossible to know until we see the best foreigners play the best Koreans now (not two months ago, because SC2 is evolving at a very rapid pace).
Dreamhack was 6 weeks ago and Copenhagen was only 1 month ago. You're clutching at straws here.
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On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant.
Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs.
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On May 24 2011 12:04 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Again, that's entirely debatable. It's impossible to know until we see the best foreigners play the best Koreans now (not two months ago, because SC2 is evolving at a very rapid pace). Dreamhack was 6 weeks ago and Copenhagen was only 1 month ago. You're clutching at straws here.
lol
No, you're being silly by acting like Koreans are absolutely better when we haven't seen the best foreigners play the best Koreans recently.
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On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs.
I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face.
I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss.
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On May 24 2011 12:05 iamahydralisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:04 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:56 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Again, that's entirely debatable. It's impossible to know until we see the best foreigners play the best Koreans now (not two months ago, because SC2 is evolving at a very rapid pace). Dreamhack was 6 weeks ago and Copenhagen was only 1 month ago. You're clutching at straws here. lol No, you're being silly by acting like Koreans are absolutely better when we haven't seen the best foreigners play the best Koreans recently.
The funny thing is that most of the best Koreans never actually play at foreign lans, MC has basically just been soloing them with occasional help from a Code B-ers.
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On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss.
Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will.
Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen, who manages to keep up by laddering on the Korean server) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame.
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On May 24 2011 12:11 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:07 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:04 kheldorin wrote:On May 24 2011 11:53 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:50 iamahydralisk wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. Nobody's claiming that foreigners are better than Koreans. The fact that the arguably best Korean lost a legit ("legit" as in, no lag) set to a foreigner is proof enough that this isn't BW and the Korean players aren't head and shoulders above everyone else. Nor is anyone claiming that the difference is as big as it was in BW, but the difference is there it is noticable and it is significant. Considering that even MC said that the EU Terrans are better or on par with the Korean Terrans, I don't think the gap is as significant as you think. For other races, it probably is true especially for Zergs as both MC and now XiaoT has mentioned that they both have played against better Zergs than the NA/EU Zergs. I personally think Bomber/MVP/MKP is a pretty ridiculous combo of KOR Terrans not to mention you've also got MMA, Supernova, Clide, Nada, Ryung, Boxer, Polt in the second tier of KOR Terrans, if people really think Kas, Thorzain, Strelok are as good then I guess that's their call but I can't think anyone can say that with a straight face. I'd say Protoss is the area where foreigners are closest to Koreans with only MC being clearly better than any foreign Protoss. Well, MC clearly said it with a straight face. Make of that what you will. Most foreign Zergs (minus Sen) are really lagging behind Korean Zergs though, which is a shame.
Idra is as good imo as any Korean Zerg bar Nestea, Nestea's quite a bit ahead of anyone else but I'd say Sen, Idra, July and Losira are about the same and players like Dimaga and Morrow aren't any worse than Zenio, Min and Kyrix.
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On May 24 2011 12:02 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:55 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record. Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward. Some GSL players are really quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and effort, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches. Thorzain wouldn't even have won the TSL if Nani didn't completely choke in the final game and nothing about Thorzain's results outside of TSL suggests such a baseless theory. Inca is also very good in PvT and he is literally the best PvPer in the world, which isn't a small accomplishment and besides Inca is not the only person Nestea had made look sub par, just look at Jinro this season. They have competed with MC in the sense that he hasn't all killed them every time (although he has all killed foreigners 5 times across 8 games played, not including his game versus lesser known players), but overall he's rolled them pretty hard and won both of the European LANS he's attending, the evidence overwhelming suggests MC is a boss who is better than foreigners.
The point is not why Naniwa choked, but why Thorzain didn't choke. That's what makes him a better player, and explains why he has the best results out of all the foreigners vs. MC in latency-less environments: he doesn't panic just because it's MC.
Excusing Inca for his poor PvZ really isn't the point, since the GSL is full of poor games amidst good ones. The lesson here is that the meta-game is so unstable, at the moment, that a player with a better strategy can well beat a player with better mechanics, and that's what makes SC 2 rankings much harder to establish, since strategies are changing all the time.
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Updated results for today? OP not updated per usual..
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On May 24 2011 12:14 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:02 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:55 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record. Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward. Some GSL players are really quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and effort, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches. Thorzain wouldn't even have won the TSL if Nani didn't completely choke in the final game and nothing about Thorzain's results outside of TSL suggests such a baseless theory. Inca is also very good in PvT and he is literally the best PvPer in the world, which isn't a small accomplishment and besides Inca is not the only person Nestea had made look sub par, just look at Jinro this season. They have competed with MC in the sense that he hasn't all killed them every time (although he has all killed foreigners 5 times across 8 games played, not including his game versus lesser known players), but overall he's rolled them pretty hard and won both of the European LANS he's attending, the evidence overwhelming suggests MC is a boss who is better than foreigners. The point is not why Naniwa choked, but why Thorzain didn't choke. That's what makes him a better player, and explains why he has the best results out of all the foreigners vs. MC in latency-less environments: he doesn't panic just because it's MC. Excusing Inca for his poor PvZ really isn't the point, since the GSL is full of poor games amidst brilliant ones. The lesson here is that the meta-game is so unstable, at the moment, that a player with a better strategy can well beat a player with better mechanics, and that's what makes SC 2 rankings much harder to establish, since strategies are changing all the time.
Except Naniwa is a better player than Thorzain overall and his results certainly demonstrate it.
Any decent player can beat anyone in a single series, MC lost to Polt for example, Idra lost to Nazgul, Jinro lost to those zerg players in the up and down. Even Flash/Jaedong lose to far lesser players.
But overall the best players are consistant and more often than not they make the business end of tournaments. Which is why Naniwa is better than Thorzain and MC is better than everyone.
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On May 24 2011 12:19 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:14 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:02 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:55 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record. Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward. Some GSL players are really quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and effort, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches. Thorzain wouldn't even have won the TSL if Nani didn't completely choke in the final game and nothing about Thorzain's results outside of TSL suggests such a baseless theory. Inca is also very good in PvT and he is literally the best PvPer in the world, which isn't a small accomplishment and besides Inca is not the only person Nestea had made look sub par, just look at Jinro this season. They have competed with MC in the sense that he hasn't all killed them every time (although he has all killed foreigners 5 times across 8 games played, not including his game versus lesser known players), but overall he's rolled them pretty hard and won both of the European LANS he's attending, the evidence overwhelming suggests MC is a boss who is better than foreigners. The point is not why Naniwa choked, but why Thorzain didn't choke. That's what makes him a better player, and explains why he has the best results out of all the foreigners vs. MC in latency-less environments: he doesn't panic just because it's MC. Excusing Inca for his poor PvZ really isn't the point, since the GSL is full of poor games amidst brilliant ones. The lesson here is that the meta-game is so unstable, at the moment, that a player with a better strategy can well beat a player with better mechanics, and that's what makes SC 2 rankings much harder to establish, since strategies are changing all the time. Except Naniwa is a better player than Thorzain overall and his results certainly demonstrate it. Any decent player can beat anyone in a single series, MC lost to Polt for example, Idra lost to Nazgul, Jinro lost to those zerg players in the up and down. Even Flash/Jaedong lose to far lesser players. But overall the best players are consistant and more often than not they make the business end of tournaments. Which is why Naniwa is better than Thorzain and MC is better than everyone.
If that's the case, why then do you rate Idra so highly? He has a consistent history of losing to people he really should be beating.
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On May 24 2011 12:24 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:19 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 12:14 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 12:02 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:55 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2011 11:44 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 11:37 Azarkon wrote:
White-Ra almost defeated MC at Dreamhack IIRC.
And Thorzain beat MC while both were playing from Europe, so latency is not really an excuse.
LAN isn't everything, especially in SC 2 where most of the big leagues outside of Korea are played online. This always makes me laugh, why do people point to that one game where MC lost 3-2 to Thorzain to a strat that was so op Blizzard immediately nerfed it (very rare for them). Why does that game matter so much when people completely ignore that MC has beaten: Morrow 2-0, 2-0, 3-1 across three differrent tournaments White Ra 3-2, 3-0. Idra 2-0 Kas 4-0 Why does that one 3-2 match matter more than the combined efforts of the 7 games I listed? MC's record versus foreigners is massively in favour of the theory that Koreans are a cut above foreigners not vice versa. His record while playing on the same server as top foreigners is 21 wins and 6 losses. That is an insane good record. Or maybe Thorzain is simply a cut above other foreigners when he prepares for a match? MC lost because his PvT understanding at the time was worse than Thorzain's, and he even realized it afterward. Some GSL players are really quite mediocre despite getting very far. Inca is an example - great PvP, terrible PvZ. Koreans have the edge in practice environment and effort, but SC 2 isn't all about mechanics. Foreigners can, and have, competed with the best Koreans (ie MC) under equal latency and showed close matches. Thorzain wouldn't even have won the TSL if Nani didn't completely choke in the final game and nothing about Thorzain's results outside of TSL suggests such a baseless theory. Inca is also very good in PvT and he is literally the best PvPer in the world, which isn't a small accomplishment and besides Inca is not the only person Nestea had made look sub par, just look at Jinro this season. They have competed with MC in the sense that he hasn't all killed them every time (although he has all killed foreigners 5 times across 8 games played, not including his game versus lesser known players), but overall he's rolled them pretty hard and won both of the European LANS he's attending, the evidence overwhelming suggests MC is a boss who is better than foreigners. The point is not why Naniwa choked, but why Thorzain didn't choke. That's what makes him a better player, and explains why he has the best results out of all the foreigners vs. MC in latency-less environments: he doesn't panic just because it's MC. Excusing Inca for his poor PvZ really isn't the point, since the GSL is full of poor games amidst brilliant ones. The lesson here is that the meta-game is so unstable, at the moment, that a player with a better strategy can well beat a player with better mechanics, and that's what makes SC 2 rankings much harder to establish, since strategies are changing all the time. Except Naniwa is a better player than Thorzain overall and his results certainly demonstrate it. Any decent player can beat anyone in a single series, MC lost to Polt for example, Idra lost to Nazgul, Jinro lost to those zerg players in the up and down. Even Flash/Jaedong lose to far lesser players. But overall the best players are consistant and more often than not they make the business end of tournaments. Which is why Naniwa is better than Thorzain and MC is better than everyone. If that's the case, why then do you rate Idra so highly? He has a consistent history of losing to people he really should be beating.
MLG DC, IPL, GSL Ro8, Silver at that really early IEM.
Idra obviously slumped really hard when he left Korea but he's placed well at most of the MLG's, he made Code S twice and is doing well in NASL. You can't play in as many tournaments as Idra has and not have lost of plenty of games but to go with that he's also done well at a lot of tournaments, which Thorzain hasn't, he's done well at one tournament.
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EPT
