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If you spoil the results of the tournament, you will be banned. |
On April 08 2011 22:19 Vul wrote:
Here's the problem--it comes off extremely poorly for you to try to argue that somehow the success of Starcraft is contingent on you casting these games. Your Youtube view counts doesn't make you the messiah of esports. I have a lot more respect for someone like Day9, who actually plays and was one of the best players on the scene, and provides analysis, not just casting, which actually helps people get better. You're comparing your view counts to Day9 as if you two do the same thing. Day9 can make the games entertaining, but he also helps people get better, every day. That's what his show is about, most aren't. I think that he's exponentially more important to the community because he's done exponentially more for the community. And therefore I support him as a caster. To me, the fact that you don't seem to have any respect for Day9's tremendous contributions, as evidenced by you trying to prove why you're the better choice, says all I need to know about your merits as a caster in the Sc2 community.
Holy shit...
Totalbiscuit isn't arguing about him being a better choice than Day9. Day9 can't cast this because he's a busy man, this has already been said. He's saying that popular youtube casters will bring in more viewers as they have more mainstream appeal, this is pretty much fact. Totalbiscuit even told people to donate to Day9 when he asked for it.
You're forgetting that the vast majority of all viewers don't watch tournaments to become better, they do it because they enjoy it.
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Excited to see how this turns out. Not 100% sold on all the players/casters chosen, but for something they're doing as a kind of trial run it looks like it could produce some interesting games. Always good to see another league show up in NA.
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On April 08 2011 22:19 Vul wrote:
Here's the problem--it comes off extremely poorly for you to try to argue that somehow the success of Starcraft is contingent on you casting these games. Your Youtube view counts doesn't make you the messiah of esports. I have a lot more respect for someone like Day9, who actually plays and was one of the best players on the scene, and provides analysis, not just casting, which actually helps people get better. You're comparing your view counts to Day9 as if you two do the same thing. Day9 can make the games entertaining, but he also helps people get better, every day. That's what his show is about, most aren't. I think that he's exponentially more important to the community because he's done exponentially more for the community. And therefore I support him as a caster. To me, the fact that you don't seem to have any respect for Day9's tremendous contributions, as evidenced by you trying to prove why you're the better choice, says all I need to know about your merits as a caster in the Sc2 community.
Wow ok, there really is no point arguing with you on this one, you have such a warped view of what I've said and no knowledge of who I am or what I think. Your opinion of me vs Day9 is so incredibly fucked up it beggers belief and anyone who knows a single fact about our relationship knows just how woefully inaccurate and downright delusional what you've just said is.
I give up, you're one of those who can't be helped.
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Personally, I will likely make a point of watching any of the games that TotalBiscuit is casting. I find him extremely entertaining. I seem to remember a huge amount of positive feedback on his casting of the IEM asia final, so I don't think I'm alone in this.
Considering that one of the goals of the IPL is to bring in fans who haven't normally followed starcraft, I think the choice of casters is fantastic!
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On April 08 2011 22:27 Sliver wrote:
Not really excited...over saturation of SC2 tournys and with TB casting this I think I may not watch.
Whoa....this is a very closed minded statement, I mean, over saturation? lol.
The more the merrier. SC2 is helping e-sports to really grow over the world and this kind of initiative is very needed. I am sorry but I cannot see how can this be bad.
About TB, I haven't heard him but I am willing to give him a chance. If IGN choose him it might be for a good reason.
You really don't sound like a real SC2 fan tbh.
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On April 09 2011 00:30 Juaks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 22:27 Sliver wrote:
Not really excited...over saturation of SC2 tournys and with TB casting this I think I may not watch. Whoa....this is a very closed minded statement, I mean, over saturation? lol. The more the merrier. SC2 is helping e-sports to really grow over the world and this kind of initiative is very needed. I am sorry but I cannot see how can this be bad. About TB, I haven't heard him but I am willing to give him a chance. If IGN choose him it might be for a good reason. You really don't sound like a real SC2 fan tbh.
The more the merrier but it's true that there is gonna be oversaturation in the next few weeks when nasl starts.. there is need of a website like sc2casts but better to filter out the most entertaining games to watch.
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On April 09 2011 00:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 22:19 Vul wrote:
Here's the problem--it comes off extremely poorly for you to try to argue that somehow the success of Starcraft is contingent on you casting these games. Your Youtube view counts doesn't make you the messiah of esports. I have a lot more respect for someone like Day9, who actually plays and was one of the best players on the scene, and provides analysis, not just casting, which actually helps people get better. You're comparing your view counts to Day9 as if you two do the same thing. Day9 can make the games entertaining, but he also helps people get better, every day. That's what his show is about, most aren't. I think that he's exponentially more important to the community because he's done exponentially more for the community. And therefore I support him as a caster. To me, the fact that you don't seem to have any respect for Day9's tremendous contributions, as evidenced by you trying to prove why you're the better choice, says all I need to know about your merits as a caster in the Sc2 community.
I give up, you're one of those who can't be helped.
On April 08 2011 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Have I once during this thread took offence to anything said, regardless of less than tactful insinuations and occassionally downright insults of my work?
less than tactful insinuations eh? personally i think you lack the knowledge and gaming experience to commentate starcraft properly. on top of that you come off as an extremely artificial commentator. my advice would be start working on your gaming and stop worrying about things like your accent. do you really want to be seen as the caster who doesn't say anything interesting or insightful, but says it in a nice way?
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TB's problem is he fakes excitement to cover up for his lack of insight. He never says anything worth hearing. He's either describing what we can see on screen or getting loud for something insignificant. It feels like he has this idea of what a sports commentator is suppose to sound like and is trying his best to emulate it when he should just be himself. It gets old, but at least he's not Husky.
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On April 09 2011 01:21 trashcan wrote:
TB's problem is he fakes excitement
No he doesn't.
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On April 09 2011 01:21 trashcan wrote:
TB's problem is he fakes excitement to cover up for his lack of insight. He never says anything worth hearing. He's either describing what we can see on screen or getting loud for something insignificant. It feels like he has this idea of what a sports commentator is suppose to sound like and is trying his best to emulate it when he should just be himself. It gets old, but at least he's not Husky.
he has a lack of insight, which bothers someone like me who is basically a day9 fanboy. but you cant claim hes ever lied about his position in starcraft, or that he lies about how excited he gets. alot of people like what he does but i dont think he would need to fake a persona when loads of people also like other casters who are completely different.
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On April 08 2011 09:28 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 08:17 Pants10 wrote:
I don't wanna sound like a troll but I think saying you won't watch because you don't like a certain caster is totally valid criticism of the tournament. If they dislike your commentary so much that the only way they'll watch the tournament is if you're not involved with it then they should be able to say that in a topic about said tournament. It is not constructive criticism because the subject of the choice of casters has already been addressed and dealt with in detail several times, nor are they suddenly going to turn around and revoke my, HD's or anyone elses contract because a few people on Teamliquid prefer different commentators.
For what it's worth I don't think this is a sensible point. A wave of negative community feedback is a good indicator for Edward and Alex that this(hiring you) is something they need to take extremely seriously and possibly not do at all next time.
It's unclear to me just how many people, people like you and Husky pull in. All we really have are anecdotes and a few statistics, which may or may not be indicative of anything. Your claim is that you serve as an introduction to Starcraft, and your citation is the viewer counts on your videos. There are GSL VODs with more views than any of your videos, as far as I know, and same with Day9 videos(although we don't actually have his blip.tv numbers). The implication so far in this thread is that a style of casting that is generally hated on Team Liquid - yours - is better for drawing in new viewers, but you have to have more evidence than viewer numbers in order to make that claim.
It seems to me that if there can be popular casters who cast in a style that is seriously disliked by much of the community(anecdotally, you can find no shortage of people willing to rip on HD, Husky, and TB even on the battle.net forums), and popular casters who cast in a style that is either liked or at least lukewarm to most of the community, we should be trying to foster the latter style, and part of that is letting them cast events. We have a problem right now because there don't seem to be "enough" casters, but I think IPL has an opportunity to at least try to invest in getting a new caster next season who will be liked by the community and has the potential to appeal to outsiders. Part of that process may be training someone who has some aspect of casting down(they are charismatic but ignorant or vice versa) in the aspects they are missing. If there's zero talent in the pool, esports is in trouble.
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TB, I for one love your casts, and am real excited to get a chance to hear you cast some more games. I'd love to see some more SC2 games on your youtube channel too
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On April 09 2011 01:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:No he doesn't.
Honestly I think the problem is you are exciting and fun to listen to even though you hardly offer any real deep game knowledge. Somehow people are offended by that or by that fact that not everyone wants casters that analyse the game.
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On April 09 2011 02:19 Turgid wrote:
For what it's worth I don't think this is a sensible point. A wave of negative community feedback is a good indicator for Edward and Alex that this(hiring you) is something they need to take extremely seriously and possibly not do at all next time.
It's unclear to me just how many people, people like you and Husky pull in. All we really have are anecdotes and a few statistics, which may or may not be indicative of anything. Your claim is that you serve as an introduction to Starcraft, and your citation is the viewer counts on your videos. There are GSL VODs with more views than any of your videos, as far as I know, and same with Day9 videos(although we don't actually have his blip.tv numbers). The implication so far in this thread is that a style of casting that is generally hated on Team Liquid - yours - is better for drawing in new viewers, but you have to have more evidence than viewer numbers in order to make that claim.
It seems to me that if there can be popular casters who cast in a style that is seriously disliked by much of the community(anecdotally, you can find no shortage of people willing to rip on HD, Husky, and TB even on the battle.net forums), and popular casters who cast in a style that is either liked or at least lukewarm to most of the community, we should be trying to foster the latter style, and part of that is letting them cast events. We have a problem right now because there don't seem to be "enough" casters, but I think IPL has an opportunity to at least try to invest in getting a new caster next season who will be liked by the community and has the potential to appeal to outsiders. Part of that process may be training someone who has some aspect of casting down(they are charismatic but ignorant or vice versa) in the aspects they are missing. If there's zero talent in the pool, esports is in trouble.
The tone of this discussion has become more and more aggresive from both sides. I think this last post is a good example:
" hiring you... is something they need to take extremely seriously and possibly not do at all next time."
"a style of casting that is generally hated on Team Liquid - yours"
"casters who cast in a style that is seriously disliked by much of the community(anecdotally, you can find no shortage of people willing to rip on HD, Husky, and TB even on the battle.net forums)"
Ironically enough, Turgid then rips into TB for not providing statistics when much of his post is based on personal impressions. (Again, I've got nothing personal against Turgid. Just using his post as an example.)
It's obvious people have preferences for certain casters and they should be allowed to express them. However, everyone should stop short of generalizing their own opinion or trying to impose a particular point of view on someone else (the tournament organizers).
In short, say "I like this. I don't like this". Don't say: "Everyone like this. Everyone doesn't like that." or "Do this".
In all honesty, it also feels like this discussion has ran its course and will just degenerate from now on. I think we should stop with the caster talk and move on to other topics, but the event hasn't started yet so I guess there aren't many things to talk about.
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On April 09 2011 02:19 Turgid wrote:
For what it's worth I don't think this is a sensible point. A wave of negative community feedback is a good indicator for Edward and Alex that this(hiring you) is something they need to take extremely seriously and possibly not do at all next time.
No, they don't. Why is it that people on the internet think that literally 10s of complaints some how constitutes 'a wave of negative community feedback' that should be taken 'extremely seriously'. Once again, let's go back to numbers. Let's say there's around 30 people in this thread who have expressed their dislike for my casting style, which would be about accurate. Teamliquid has over 85,000 active community members, I have about 50,000 regular Starcraft 2 viewers. In comparison, the number of people complaining is insignificant. It is a tiny vocal minority. Say anything on the internet and you can generate a 'wave of negative community feedback', more often than not even larger than this against it. That's how the internet works, it's a bunch of people with a bunch of opinions and they most of the time there's little point in taking them seriously, particularly when their complaints boil down to 'this doesn't match up to my personal preferences'.
It is totally ok to despise my casting style and not watch it, that's entire up to you. It is not ok to pretend that a few people on TL constitutes a serious market force that should sway future IGN policy. That is amazingly presumptuous and not grounded in reality.
It's unclear to me just how many people, people like you and Husky pull in. All we really have are anecdotes and a few statistics, which may or may not be indicative of anything. Your claim is that you serve as an introduction to Starcraft, and your citation is the viewer counts on your videos. There are GSL VODs with more views than any of your videos, as far as I know, and same with Day9 videos(although we don't actually have his blip.tv numbers). The implication so far in this thread is that a style of casting that is generally hated on Team Liquid - yours - is better for drawing in new viewers, but you have to have more evidence than viewer numbers in order to make that claim.
You ask for the impossible. You have been given statistics and supporting arguments, you have been given anecdotal evidence, you still want more. In this case, the burden of proof should be on the accuser, it's up to you to prove that Husky/HD/TotalBiscuit style casting is NOT good entry-level commentary that can bring people into the scene. Since IGN obviously believes this, you are in the position where you must defeat that point of view, which so far you have failed to do.
It seems to me that if there can be popular casters who cast in a style that is seriously disliked by much of the community(anecdotally, you can find no shortage of people willing to rip on HD, Husky, and TB even on the battle.net forums), and popular casters who cast in a style that is either liked or at least lukewarm to most of the community, we should be trying to foster the latter style, and part of that is letting them cast events. We have a problem right now because there don't seem to be "enough" casters, but I think IPL has an opportunity to at least try to invest in getting a new caster next season who will be liked by the community and has the potential to appeal to outsiders. Part of that process may be training someone who has some aspect of casting down(they are charismatic but ignorant or vice versa) in the aspects they are missing. If there's zero talent in the pool, esports is in trouble.
The idea that one caster should 'have it all' is unrealistic. Nobody and I do mean nobody in this community is a perfect caster. Every single one of them has strengths and weaknesses. There is a reason sports operates a play-by-play/analysis/colour team and doesn't give jobs to a single commentator. I'm the first to admit that putting in a play-by-play with no analysis guy to support him is not optimal for the vast majority of tournaments. In this case however, since the target demographic is IGN viewers, not TL, it's fine, arguably even advantageous.
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Wow... what the hell happened to simply watching the game because of the love for StarCraft? If you think the caster is bad, don't watch his casts.
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On April 09 2011 02:48 ZenDeX wrote:
Wow... what the hell happened to simply watching the game because of the love for StarCraft? If you think the caster is bad, don't watch his casts.
Which is totally within their rights. What I object to are those that believe that somehow constitutes a boycott that IGN should take seriously and can be used to influence their decisions. It's a gross exaggeration of how the community feels, based on a vocal minority.
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Its good to see IGN hosting a tournament. And good to see TB casting in one of the big ones too. GL HF
And if you don't like a particular caster mute him - especially if you think he doesn't bring much on an analytical stand point - surely you must know better than him so just mute him and stop with the incredible whining and raging and insults and just enjoy the game.
Whatever.
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Would just like to add that as a hardcore player and viewer of SC2 it is my opinion TB makes for a great caster. Analytical casters have their own style and its in no way mandatory to cast games this way. Play by play is 100% fine and has its own place entirely, and TB makes for one of the best casters in this role.
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I'm starting to feel concerned that all of the huge NA tournaments are invite only.
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EPT
