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Balance whining will result in a ban |
On March 28 2011 09:42 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:40 mints wrote:idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG.  i do not understand this attitude at all. idra lost because he didnt harass... the 3 bases the protoss had? compared to the toss who >actually< has the means to harass as idra was spread out all over the map.
my point was game 1 cruncher was comfortably building up the deathball. he faced no opposition during the whole game accept for that one attack up his ramp.
if idra maybe hits the 12o clock expansion with a couple of roaches then at the same time hit the natural ramp cruncher would have to be all over the place just like he was in game 2. idra clearly has the better micro/macro but he didnt even put it to use in game 1. he made one attack to the front and then lost his corruptors to a bunch of voidrays and never really posed a threat after that.
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funny results seeing after seeing idra's interview. xD
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On March 28 2011 09:51 mints wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:42 imbs wrote:On March 28 2011 09:40 mints wrote:idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG. i do not understand this attitude at all. idra lost because he didnt harass... the 3 bases the protoss had? compared to the toss who >actually< has the means to harass as idra was spread out all over the map. my point was game 1 cruncher was comfortably building up the deathball. he faced no opposition during the whole game accept for that one attack up his ramp. if idra maybe hits the 12o clock expansion with a couple of roaches then at the same time hit the natural ramp cruncher would have to be all over the place just like he was in game 2. idra clearly has the better micro/macro but he didnt even put it to use in game 1. he made one attack to the front and then lost his corruptors to a bunch of voidrays and never really posed a threat after that.
To be fair, IdrA broke the ramp multiple times, much more than once and did do continuous damage. He attempted to throw up a nydus at 12 o clock, but that was denied. I think people are severely underestimating the difficulty in breaking someone who is almost at double digit voidrays with about 3 collosus.
The 3 bases Cruncher chose are also extremely close in air position, it's very easy to defend the those 3 bases until he hits a critical mass of voids. I don't see where/how IdrA could have made this miracle harrassment - this is completely different from Terminus which has huge exposure almost all around the main and multiple points of entry (it's also a straight line for the 3 bases, which is harder to reach than the concave given at Shakuras).
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On March 28 2011 09:10 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:58 Oscatron wrote:On March 28 2011 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:On March 28 2011 08:54 craz3d wrote:On March 28 2011 08:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 28 2011 08:49 craz3d wrote:On March 28 2011 08:34 WhiteDog wrote:On March 28 2011 08:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:
[quote]
You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already. No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi. Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray... Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash. And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs. Do *you* play the game? Honestly, please tell us how protoss should play so that you can be entertained. I can't wait to hear. Adelscott ? Incontrol is much more interesting to see than cruncher imo. MC too, with his baller muscletoss play. At least you see units dying all game long, you see army composition / attack timings changing from one game to another. Have you tried going only Gateway units against Zerg? MC pretty much did 5-6 gate timing pushes in his games against July. In the TSL MC did a VR rush into a timing push win in game 2. The thing is, in PvZ, the safest way to play is to try to take out Z in one hit, because of the fact that they can re-max their army. Cruncher followed this very same philosophy against Idra. In game 1 he expanded and turtled, until he went on the offensive and won the game. In game 2 he went for the same strat except he tried to snag a 3rd, but got dismantled by Idra's drops. In game 3 he went for a 6 gate push and once again won the game with one attack. So let's review: the best way to beat Zerg is to win with one good attack, be it with a deathball or with a warpgate rush. If Adelscott was facing a Zerg player he would definitely not be playing the same Gateway-only unit style that he did against MVP. Yes and so ? There is a difference between having a certain army composition, and going for the well known abusive build of the day. MC added dark templar to most of his games against July, that's interesting. That was not pure 6 gate. Adel always add a forge and get some upgrades, that's a deviation. That's in these tiny things that starcraft gets interesting. Having 500 games that looks the same and that get absolutly decided in one go are useless. MC and Adelscott both prepare for the later stage of the game, not cruncher, period. When you're at 200/200 with a godly composition, you're AT the "later stage of the game." With 1 robo, 2 stargate, and what 6 gateways ? So you are at the later stage of the game and all in. Loose 10 void ray, build 2 to replenish your army, loose to 200/200 7 base untouched and unharassed zerg. Sorry that players try to win their games instead of trying their hardest solely to impress you. This has nothing to do with me, I'm pretty sure a lot of players feel the same. Uninteresting play. Answer this, what is Cruncher's goal in his matches vs idra? That's completely flawed logic. Everyones goal is to win. Does that mean that maphacking should be used by everyone, because everyone should play to win? Is using an abusive build the same as cheating? Most people would say absolutely not, but when the " i " word that is forbidden comes into play, that mentality changes in people. Take a MMO for example. Say there is a sword, that is absurdly overpowered. They then nerf it, but someone retained a bugged one (by chance, not hacking) and used it to win a PvP tourney. Does he not deserve praise for using everything in his arsenal to win? Play to win right? No. In most games he would be DQ'ed or banned.
Just to clarify, you're actually comparing maphacking and using bugged items in an MMO to using a legitimate strategy in Sc2.
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On March 28 2011 09:36 Metanoia wrote:
i think there is an obvious counter to protoss 200/200 ball... don't allow them to get to 200/200. zerg are harassment kings of SC2 and if you utilize that as a Z (like Idra did in game 2) then you're in good shape.
Idra lost the 3rd game all by himself.
Zerg are harassment kings of sc2? When did this happen? Game 2 requires 3 or 4 different upgrades before he can do what he did, that in no way makes zerg a better harassment race.
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On March 28 2011 09:57 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:51 mints wrote:On March 28 2011 09:42 imbs wrote:On March 28 2011 09:40 mints wrote:idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG. i do not understand this attitude at all. idra lost because he didnt harass... the 3 bases the protoss had? compared to the toss who >actually< has the means to harass as idra was spread out all over the map. my point was game 1 cruncher was comfortably building up the deathball. he faced no opposition during the whole game accept for that one attack up his ramp. if idra maybe hits the 12o clock expansion with a couple of roaches then at the same time hit the natural ramp cruncher would have to be all over the place just like he was in game 2. idra clearly has the better micro/macro but he didnt even put it to use in game 1. he made one attack to the front and then lost his corruptors to a bunch of voidrays and never really posed a threat after that. To be fair, IdrA broke the ramp multiple times, much more than once and did do continuous damage. He attempted to throw up a nydus at 12 o clock, but that was denied. I think people are severely underestimating the difficulty in breaking someone who is almost at double digit voidrays with about 3 collosus. The 3 bases Cruncher chose are also extremely close in air position, it's very easy to defend the those 3 bases until he hits a critical mass of voids. I don't see where/how IdrA could have made this miracle harrassment - this is completely different from Terminus which has huge exposure almost all around the main and multiple points of entry (it's also a straight line for the 3 bases, which is harder to reach than the concave given at Shakuras).
It's funny because Cruncher and Zeerax both played very similar styles of protoss (open with phoenix/voidray and transition to colossi with gateway units while maintaining a high vr count). Yet I think Mondragon showed a very solid way for zerg to respond to this play style. I think we should be praising Mondi for the two awesome games he played today.
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![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/2i974tc.jpg)
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
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On March 28 2011 10:05 JimSocks wrote:
lulz
<3
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I think that ZvP is pretty damn tough, what with the 'death ball' and the fake expands etc. But to be honest nothing justifys iDra's BMing between games. Seems damn unsporting to me. And while Cruncher's smile may have been 'BM', I think if you dish it out then it's perfectly reasonable to expect a little in return.
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On March 28 2011 09:21 LemOn wrote:![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/351v8l2.png) hah sorry if repost. mods when will the VODs be up? I missed this plaing day :/
You can put Crunchers other recent opponents there too:
4-1 vs PainUser
4-1 vs Sjow
4-1 vs LzGamer
4-0 vs StrifeCro
And finally Greggy "Walkover" Fields.
Cruncher is way underrated.
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On March 28 2011 10:13 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:21 LemOn wrote:hah sorry if repost. mods when will the VODs be up? I missed this plaing day :/ You can put Crunchers other recent opponents there too: 4-1 vs PainUser 4-1 vs Sjow 4-1 vs LzGamer 4-0 vs StrifeCro And finally Greggy "Walkover" Fields. Cruncher is way underrated.
He also 2-0'd my hero, MarineKingPrime
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On March 28 2011 10:13 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:21 LemOn wrote:hah sorry if repost. mods when will the VODs be up? I missed this plaing day :/ You can put Crunchers other recent opponents there too: 4-1 vs PainUser 4-1 vs Sjow 4-1 vs LzGamer 4-0 vs StrifeCro And finally Greggy "Walkover" Fields. Cruncher is way underrated.
And 2-0 vs what is considered the best PvPer in the world oGsInca.
2-0 vs CheckPrime
2-0 vs MarineKingPrime (the games weren't even close he basically stomped him really hard)
That's just from the last couple of days!
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On March 28 2011 10:02 skycaptain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 09:57 PartyBiscuit wrote:On March 28 2011 09:51 mints wrote:On March 28 2011 09:42 imbs wrote:On March 28 2011 09:40 mints wrote:idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG. i do not understand this attitude at all. idra lost because he didnt harass... the 3 bases the protoss had? compared to the toss who >actually< has the means to harass as idra was spread out all over the map. my point was game 1 cruncher was comfortably building up the deathball. he faced no opposition during the whole game accept for that one attack up his ramp. if idra maybe hits the 12o clock expansion with a couple of roaches then at the same time hit the natural ramp cruncher would have to be all over the place just like he was in game 2. idra clearly has the better micro/macro but he didnt even put it to use in game 1. he made one attack to the front and then lost his corruptors to a bunch of voidrays and never really posed a threat after that. To be fair, IdrA broke the ramp multiple times, much more than once and did do continuous damage. He attempted to throw up a nydus at 12 o clock, but that was denied. I think people are severely underestimating the difficulty in breaking someone who is almost at double digit voidrays with about 3 collosus. The 3 bases Cruncher chose are also extremely close in air position, it's very easy to defend the those 3 bases until he hits a critical mass of voids. I don't see where/how IdrA could have made this miracle harrassment - this is completely different from Terminus which has huge exposure almost all around the main and multiple points of entry (it's also a straight line for the 3 bases, which is harder to reach than the concave given at Shakuras). It's funny because Cruncher and Zeerax both played very similar styles of protoss (open with phoenix/voidray and transition to colossi with gateway units while maintaining a high vr count). Yet I think Mondragon showed a very solid way for zerg to respond to this play style. I think we should be praising Mondi for the two awesome games he played today.
This is exactly what I thought as well.
After Idra experienced the bitterness from game 1, he decided to go aggressive in game 2, which turned out well. However he thought Cruncher is going similar style in game 3 after spotted his inner expo, I think that have leaded to his dismiss.
Joyfulness from crashing Cruncher in game 2 as well as victory over his rival might have clouded his judgement. And his usual overconfident or underestimate doesn't help either. Maybe this is one of the reason why Idra's often lose game 1, do well at game 2, and crumble at game 3 like Day9 has pointed out?
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On March 28 2011 10:17 Ezze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 10:13 tdt wrote:On March 28 2011 09:21 LemOn wrote:hah sorry if repost. mods when will the VODs be up? I missed this plaing day :/ You can put Crunchers other recent opponents there too: 4-1 vs PainUser 4-1 vs Sjow 4-1 vs LzGamer 4-0 vs StrifeCro And finally Greggy "Walkover" Fields. Cruncher is way underrated. And 2-0 vs what is considered the best PvPer in the world oGsInca. 2-0 vs CheckPrime 2-0 vs MarineKingPrime (the games weren't even close he basically stomped him really hard) That's just from the last couple of days!
Yea this is what I said earlier in the thread. Just because cruncher is entered later to the sc2 scene than others, people give him 0 credit. If you look at his recent victories over a bunch of very high level players, you can see he's only getting better by the day and shouldn't be taken lightly. Seems that a lot of the "favorites" in the tourney are just too overconfident against their relatively unknown opponents and lose this way.
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Ahhh I can't wait for day 3 and 4 Interviews. Such awesome coverage<3
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Tyler talked a lot of shit on CrunCher getting into NASL on the last SOTG. I wonder if he has changed his mind after this performance?
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So did TLO play as terran, and not random?
edit: tried searching this thread, 75% of the posts seemingly related to Idra 
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EPT
