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[TSL] Ro32 Day 4 - Page 408

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Balance whining will result in a ban
Reptarem
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
155 Posts
March 28 2011 00:21 GMT
#8141
On March 28 2011 09:13 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 09:11 skycaptain wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:54 craz3d wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:53 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:49 craz3d wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:33 skycaptain wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:
[quote]
You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already.

No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi.
Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray...
Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash.

And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs.


Do *you* play the game? Honestly, please tell us how protoss should play so that you can be entertained. I can't wait to hear.

Adelscott ? Incontrol is much more interesting to see than cruncher imo. MC too, with his baller muscletoss play.

At least you see units dying all game long, you see army composition / attack timings changing from one game to another.


Have you tried going only Gateway units against Zerg? MC pretty much did 5-6 gate timing pushes in his games against July. In the TSL MC did a VR rush into a timing push win in game 2. The thing is, in PvZ, the safest way to play is to try to take out Z in one hit, because of the fact that they can re-max their army.

Cruncher followed this very same philosophy against Idra. In game 1 he expanded and turtled, until he went on the offensive and won the game. In game 2 he went for the same strat except he tried to snag a 3rd, but got dismantled by Idra's drops. In game 3 he went for a 6 gate push and once again won the game with one attack.

So let's review: the best way to beat Zerg is to win with one good attack, be it with a deathball or with a warpgate rush. If Adelscott was facing a Zerg player he would definitely not be playing the same Gateway-only unit style that he did against MVP.

Yes and so ? There is a difference between having a certain army composition, and going for the well known abusive build of the day. MC added dark templar to most of his games against July, that's interesting. That was not pure 6 gate.
Adel always add a forge and get some upgrades, that's a deviation. That's in these tiny things that starcraft gets interesting. Having 500 games that looks the same and that get absolutly decided in one go are useless.
MC and Adelscott both prepare for the later stage of the game, not cruncher, period.

When you're at 200/200 with a godly composition, you're AT the "later stage of the game."

With 1 robo, 2 stargate, and what 6 gateways ? So you are at the later stage of the game and all in.
Loose 10 void ray, build 2 to replenish your army, loose to 200/200 7 base untouched and unharassed zerg.
Sorry that players try to win their games instead of trying their hardest solely to impress you.

This has nothing to do with me, I'm pretty sure a lot of players feel the same. Uninteresting play. This does not get anything away from cruncher's wins, it's just boring to see.


Really? Cause it seemed like this whole time you were criticizing Cruncher but now it's the state of the game that you don't like? Make up your mind.

It's the state of the game, but cruncher is responsible for not digging the game and only using abusive style ? He still won, this has nothing to do with it.


People need to get off CrunCher's balls seriously. He won fair and square. Your definition of all-in seems to define every attack in SC2. Don't hate the player.
shappens
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)137 Posts
March 28 2011 00:21 GMT
#8142
wow more than 400 postings .. sounds like hell of a night.
somebody summarize the result??

have a good starting of new week ^^
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 01:45:10
March 28 2011 00:21 GMT
#8143


mods when will the VODs be up? I missed this plaing day :/

User was warned for this post
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
MrSexington
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1768 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 00:23:33
March 28 2011 00:22 GMT
#8144
deleted
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
March 28 2011 00:22 GMT
#8145
On March 28 2011 09:10 Mailing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 08:58 Oscatron wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:54 craz3d wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:53 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:49 craz3d wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:33 skycaptain wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:
[quote]
You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already.

No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi.
Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray...
Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash.

And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs.


Do *you* play the game? Honestly, please tell us how protoss should play so that you can be entertained. I can't wait to hear.

Adelscott ? Incontrol is much more interesting to see than cruncher imo. MC too, with his baller muscletoss play.

At least you see units dying all game long, you see army composition / attack timings changing from one game to another.


Have you tried going only Gateway units against Zerg? MC pretty much did 5-6 gate timing pushes in his games against July. In the TSL MC did a VR rush into a timing push win in game 2. The thing is, in PvZ, the safest way to play is to try to take out Z in one hit, because of the fact that they can re-max their army.

Cruncher followed this very same philosophy against Idra. In game 1 he expanded and turtled, until he went on the offensive and won the game. In game 2 he went for the same strat except he tried to snag a 3rd, but got dismantled by Idra's drops. In game 3 he went for a 6 gate push and once again won the game with one attack.

So let's review: the best way to beat Zerg is to win with one good attack, be it with a deathball or with a warpgate rush. If Adelscott was facing a Zerg player he would definitely not be playing the same Gateway-only unit style that he did against MVP.

Yes and so ? There is a difference between having a certain army composition, and going for the well known abusive build of the day. MC added dark templar to most of his games against July, that's interesting. That was not pure 6 gate.
Adel always add a forge and get some upgrades, that's a deviation. That's in these tiny things that starcraft gets interesting. Having 500 games that looks the same and that get absolutly decided in one go are useless.
MC and Adelscott both prepare for the later stage of the game, not cruncher, period.

When you're at 200/200 with a godly composition, you're AT the "later stage of the game."

With 1 robo, 2 stargate, and what 6 gateways ? So you are at the later stage of the game and all in.
Loose 10 void ray, build 2 to replenish your army, loose to 200/200 7 base untouched and unharassed zerg.
Sorry that players try to win their games instead of trying their hardest solely to impress you.

This has nothing to do with me, I'm pretty sure a lot of players feel the same. Uninteresting play.


Answer this, what is Cruncher's goal in his matches vs idra?


That's completely flawed logic. Everyones goal is to win. Does that mean that maphacking should be used by everyone, because everyone should play to win?

Is using an abusive build the same as cheating? Most people would say absolutely not, but when the " i " word that is forbidden comes into play, that mentality changes in people.

Take a MMO for example. Say there is a sword, that is absurdly overpowered. They then nerf it, but someone retained a bugged one (by chance, not hacking) and used it to win a PvP tourney. Does he not deserve praise for using everything in his arsenal to win? Play to win right? No. In most games he would be DQ'ed or banned.


It's possible this constitutes balance whining, but I'll forget that and just say - you are entirely wrong. Exploiting a glitch and playing a certain way are such insanely seperate concepts. Would you like Cruncher to promise at the start of every game not to turtle, 6 gate, 4 gate, cannon rush or anything else that doesn't involve warp prisms, archons, carriers, crazy micro and multi tasking? Or, aha, would you like Cruncher to apologise for playing that race?
JayZz
Profile Joined October 2010
56 Posts
March 28 2011 00:25 GMT
#8146
When will the most recent vods be posted?
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
March 28 2011 00:26 GMT
#8147
All I have to say is that the matches were extremely entertaining and i thoroughly enjoyed watching them. Thanks to TL for putting on an awesome tourney.
time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
shappens
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)137 Posts
March 28 2011 00:28 GMT
#8148
did nada owned white dude or not??
susySquark
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1692 Posts
March 28 2011 00:28 GMT
#8149
It's a real time STRATEGY game. Idra may have more "skill" in that his macro, multitasking, and micro (?) are better, but when it comes down to it, he's playing a strategy game. And his strategy was to make 7 drones after scouting a 6 gate. Same goes for the first game, Idra just got outplayed.
Tef
Profile Joined April 2008
Sweden443 Posts
March 28 2011 00:29 GMT
#8150
I don't get all the whine about the Crusher vs. IdrA games and I am Zerg myself. You can go all-in when ever you want in a game. It's just not an all-in rush anymore if you do it 45 min into the game. It doesn't matter if you go all-in on the flop or river in Poker, you are still all-in.

Yes, it is really difficult to beat a defensive protoss who builds a ball on 2-3 bases. If they loose the ball they usually die not long after so it can be considered all-in. But come on, even I get tired of seeing such uninspiring Zerg play. Please, do something unpredictable for once.
Dont fuck up, dont fuck yourself
iokke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 00:34:28
March 28 2011 00:30 GMT
#8151
disturbing how as soon as Idra looses a huge balance discussion is under way. Really ruined the thread and it hurts the spirit of the tournament. Blizzard better listen and revolve the balance around this guy until he wins all the games.

Btw thx for the great tourney Pokerstrategy
Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time
Aranaukin
Profile Joined April 2010
United States60 Posts
March 28 2011 00:33 GMT
#8152
I thought some of these matches were entertaining, the Zeerax vs Mondragon series was a joke, Zeerax obviously forgot how to play the game, Idra's decision making in game 1 was questionable, he was idle and maxed for too long which allowed cruncher to get that stupid death ball. Game 2 showed some sick play... Game 3... forcefields anyone ?
halvorg
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Norway717 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 00:35:55
March 28 2011 00:35 GMT
#8153
Very disappointed in Zeeraxs play today, didnt forcefield his ramp when roaches were attacking his wall in, in G2. And totally fell apart against 2 pronged attack in G1. + floating loads of minerals in both games.

Idra vs. Cruncher was pretty much the worst series in TSL3 Id say, G1 Shakuras Plateau death ball mass on 3 base vs. the map... Not gonna claim imbalance or anything, but lets just say thats something zergs have a hard time with. G2 was pretty much Idra owning Cruncher with some drops and G3 was won by some very nice forcefields, and like 4 too many drones.

I liked Kas vs haypro, but i lagged for much of TLO v Nada : (
Metanoia
Profile Joined March 2011
United States16 Posts
March 28 2011 00:36 GMT
#8154
i think there is an obvious counter to protoss 200/200 ball... don't allow them to get to 200/200. zerg are harassment kings of SC2 and if you utilize that as a Z (like Idra did in game 2) then you're in good shape.

Idra lost the 3rd game all by himself.
mints
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States120 Posts
March 28 2011 00:40 GMT
#8155
idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG.
imbs
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom320 Posts
March 28 2011 00:41 GMT
#8156
On March 28 2011 09:36 Metanoia wrote:
i think there is an obvious counter to protoss 200/200 ball... don't allow them to get to 200/200. zerg are harassment kings of SC2 and if you utilize that as a Z (like Idra did in game 2) then you're in good shape.

Idra lost the 3rd game all by himself.

sry but wat? zerg harrassment kings? all you need to do to realize that is not true at all is take a look at the units each race has. not to mention how ineffective harrass is when ur opponent is on so few bases and has no need to move out.
StarcraftMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada507 Posts
March 28 2011 00:42 GMT
#8157
On March 28 2011 08:58 Sanitarium14 wrote:
I think this is worth a post.

Lol Idra

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2689991&postcount=152


Nice find! LOL, so funny
imbs
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom320 Posts
March 28 2011 00:42 GMT
#8158
On March 28 2011 09:40 mints wrote:
idra lost game 1 because he did no harassment at all and just let protoss build up comfortably. his fault. game 2 he constantly did multiple prong attacks. he wins. game 3 idra takes a risk and goes for the expansion with 2 gas and is punished for it. cruncher out plays idra. GG.

i do not understand this attitude at all. idra lost because he didnt harass... the 3 bases the protoss had? compared to the toss who >actually< has the means to harass as idra was spread out all over the map.
Nukm_
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany104 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 00:46:15
March 28 2011 00:44 GMT
#8159
On March 28 2011 07:49 Demosthen3s wrote:
Kudos to the TSL3 observer, who is doing the observing? Great job haven't seen anyone thank him yet. Pointing out lots of things calmy for the viewers, always listening to the casters and selecting everything they mention. Great work, underappreciated job!

Looking forward to ro16.


seconded, gj hot_bid (afaik)
WArped
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom4845 Posts
March 28 2011 00:44 GMT
#8160
On March 28 2011 09:42 StarcraftMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 08:58 Sanitarium14 wrote:
I think this is worth a post.

Lol Idra

http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2689991&postcount=152


Nice find! LOL, so funny


Was just about to post this. Still laughing so hard at IdrA's loss.
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