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Balance whining will result in a ban |
On March 28 2011 08:03 gozima wrote:
50k+ viewers for an "online" tournament cast from replays? What the hell is going on? Is all this taking place in some sort of alternate reality?
Regardless, entertaining games and look forward to next weekend.
Because you have to make sure that nobody cheats. Having those games live could result in a guy geting infos from a stream.
And stop complaining about how the koreans got kicked out. The ones that got defeated were defeated because they played worse. Haypro managed to play a very entertaining series and it was almost not noticable that he suffered a bit more from lag. Why? Because he knows how to play with it and doesn't just go into the game thinking he has it. The ro 16 will be even better. Best tournament for sc2^^. Noone else brings the drama.
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On March 28 2011 08:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:06 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:
[quote]
So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game
It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that. Cheers, I always try to entertain. 3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it. 3 bases mining is optimal because of how many workers each base can support. To saturate four bases you'd need way too many probes and your army would suffer.
Thanks for this. This pretty much sums up everything rather eloquently. Protoss can only optimally mine from 3 bases and it's standard to expand to your fourth after 200/200 because that's about when your main should be drying up.
Also, don't get me wrong, I love Adelscott's play style. But if you've seen the TLOpens it definitely has weaknesses in PvT and I don't think it's really viable at all in PvZ. (mainly due to the strength of hydras against gateway units) I know everyone hates the colossus and the "deathball" but unfortunately it's really the only way to deal with zerg late game.
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On March 28 2011 08:03 gozima wrote:
50k+ viewers for an "online" tournament cast from replays? What the hell is going on? Is all this taking place in some sort of alternate reality?
I, for one, don't mind it being casted from replays. The player's histories are obscured so no one can history-cheat and find out who won, and even the casters are unaware of who won as though it were real time. Replays means that issues arising already have judgment passed, and smooth sailing for the tourney. It would be different if this was a LAN, but seeing as its an international tourney I don't mind.
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On March 28 2011 07:58 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:54 Disposition1989 wrote:
1 base all in used to be cheese, then 2 base all in was considered cheese. now 3 base all in is frowned upon. anyone see a problem with this trend? wowwwwwwwww If these 2 base 6gate builds are not cheese, then it does not look good for the future of this game. People WILL get tired of that shit, which if you read any of the GSL LR threads, people are already doing it very quickly. Games like Haypro vs Kas are interesting. Games where protoss makes sentries and stalkers and pushes are not. The protoss either destroys with force fields, or loses their gas heavy army and loses. It's "one big attack" syndrome, something that happens waaaaay too much in ZvP. If you watch SanZenith vs NesTea in last GSL, that is a game where a protoss does not sit and make a deathball. There is constant DT, archons, storms zealot harass, warp prisms, expansions, etc.
i think you're totally wrong there.
the protoss can win doing 4 gate or 6 gate or deathball, so why the hell should he do something else and 'maybe lose' ?
it doesn't make sense. if the zerg race doesn't have a good response, it's the game you have to blame. however, i'd argue that it's the player who couldn't find a response and deserved to lose.
also, BMing between games is shocking and i'd be suprised if idra isn't at least warned about it by the tournament admins. idra said after game 2 "sucks when its skill that matters"... hence the " " after game 3 win.
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Looks like Tyler was right again.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2011 05:34 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
cruncher is next
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Wow. Cruncher. Wow.
It's actually really funny that there is actually someone saying he did a 3 base all in. It's hilarious how someone can be so biased that a) they think having more bases entitles you to the win, somehow, and b) they think you can put 'all in' at the end of anything a player does and it's suddenly easy to do cheese. 3 base all in - hahahaha. For fucks sake, I would much rather Idra had won but get a grip, he lost, he was way overconfident and he lost, and now he looks a bit of a tit.
If a 200/200 push on 3 bases is all in, ANY FUCKING THING IS.
Haypro D:
TLO D:
Mondragon :D!!!
EDIT: Sounds like Idra was BMing between games, even though I'm a fan there's no call for that, come on man. There's being confident and then there's being an arrogant prick. Callin' it like I see it.
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I can't believe how much discussion is directed at lamenting the state of ZvP (which I must agree often shows boring games for spectators) when far bigger news should be on the presses: the return of the Mondragon. I can't wait to see Mondragon crush more face with his offbeat tempo-centric style. I will cry manly tears if we get to see another Nony vs Mondragon finals, though I can't deny they both have long, long roads ahead of them.
I'm also really glad that the Tornado Terran advanced. He read TLO's crazy plays with aplomb and reacted calmly and crisply in every circumstance. Still, his style in SC2 isn't quite as suave and sexy as some other Terrans' like qxc or Kas. Speaking of Kas, his no Medivac, heavy factory biomech play really impressed me. He really exploited terrain to the fullest to make his beefy tank pushes cost efficient, and never shirked opportunities to leverage combat efficiency into economic gain.
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I would have lol in game 2 if ChunCher typed "Ventral Sacs is a useful skill toi have"
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Where is the CrunCher fan club??? He is now my favourite player by far. The most epic SMILEY FACE of all time! Wow!
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im soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy idra got roflstomped. lil cocky to be talking about a walkover and then getting run over by cruncher.
idra should stfu or step it up instead of being the BM nerd. pretty pathetic showing considering he was in korea for a few years. no excuses for losing except that he got what he deserved.
gg gj cruncher.
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On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:40 WhiteDog wrote:
You are mixing everything. Having 200/200 then pushing is not an all in, but going for a 200/200 void ray colossi on one robotics and two stargate is an all in. You push, but if you loose your army, you are never gonna be able to get your army fast enough to not die to the counter attack against a zerg on 7 bases, which means at least 7 hatch... Cruncher did not try to tech switch to templar, heavy gateway play, he did not even try to add on more stargate or more robo, why is that so? Because it was all in, his goal was to get that deathball out the faster possible, not delayed because he added more production facilities, not delayed because he would have taken one or two bases. You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already.
No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi.
Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray...
Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash.
And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs.
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On March 28 2011 08:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:06 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:
[quote]
So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game
It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that. Cheers, I always try to entertain. 3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it. 3 bases mining is optimal because of how many workers each base can support. To saturate four bases you'd need way too many probes and your army would suffer.
Well to get decent saturation on a normal expo of say 8 patches 2 gas. You only need 2 per patch and 3 for gas so 16+6=22. So you could easily go 4 base and keep 16 workers mining minerals at each base I think would get more income than 3 base 3 workers per patch.
3 workers per patch = 3*8+3*2=30 * 3 bases = 90 workers.
2 workers per patch = 2*8+3*2=22 * 4 bases = 88 workers.
I believe this way you get more gas and more minerals if your main isn't dry already.
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I got twitter spammed with halfway through work, so pumped to see the vods. I just saw this on twitter, haha:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bk3lD.png)
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United States1981 Posts
On March 28 2011 08:26 needmoreMicro wrote:
im soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy idra got roflstomped. lil cocky to be talking about a walkover and then getting run over by cruncher.
idra should stfu or step it up instead of being the BM nerd. pretty pathetic showing considering he was in korea for a few years. no excuses for losing except that he got what he deserved.
gg gj cruncher.
I have split opinions about Idra losing.
He did kinda deserve it for getting so cocky, but we need as many Zergs as we can get at this point  (7 toss, 5 terrans, and 3 zergs right now)
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United States15275 Posts
On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:
Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray...
Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army.
Every competent Protoss gets extra robos and gateways when he expands.
No such thing as a 7-hatch zerg unless you're in bronze.
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On March 28 2011 08:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:
Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray...
Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Every competent Protoss gets extra robos and gateways when he expands. No such thing as a 7-hatch zerg unless you're in bronze.
Are you serious or are you trolling ? Cruncher was on 2 stargate 1 robo all game in game 1, and IdrA had 7 expand thus 7 hatch.
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On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:On March 28 2011 07:40 WhiteDog wrote:
You are mixing everything. Having 200/200 then pushing is not an all in, but going for a 200/200 void ray colossi on one robotics and two stargate is an all in. You push, but if you loose your army, you are never gonna be able to get your army fast enough to not die to the counter attack against a zerg on 7 bases, which means at least 7 hatch... Cruncher did not try to tech switch to templar, heavy gateway play, he did not even try to add on more stargate or more robo, why is that so? Because it was all in, his goal was to get that deathball out the faster possible, not delayed because he added more production facilities, not delayed because he would have taken one or two bases. You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already. No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi. Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray... Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash. And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs.
Do *you* play the game? Honestly, please tell us how protoss should play so that you can be entertained. I can't wait to hear.
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On March 28 2011 08:33 skycaptain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:26 WhiteDog wrote:On March 28 2011 08:05 hugman wrote:On March 28 2011 07:40 WhiteDog wrote:
You are mixing everything. Having 200/200 then pushing is not an all in, but going for a 200/200 void ray colossi on one robotics and two stargate is an all in. You push, but if you loose your army, you are never gonna be able to get your army fast enough to not die to the counter attack against a zerg on 7 bases, which means at least 7 hatch... Cruncher did not try to tech switch to templar, heavy gateway play, he did not even try to add on more stargate or more robo, why is that so? Because it was all in, his goal was to get that deathball out the faster possible, not delayed because he added more production facilities, not delayed because he would have taken one or two bases. You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already. No I'm not hypothetical, you are. You are basically saying "if he is not loosing his army fast enough... blabla". It doesn't matter whever he is or not going to loose his army because it's simple: if he loose, he will first loose his big units then get swarmed and loose everything. The stalker/ray don't count it's all about the colossi. Going T3 late was certainly not a mistake from IdrA unlike so many naive viewers here seems to think. T3 for what ? Ultra and broodlord against void ray is certainly good... LOL. Going for +2 air attack and not great spire was also a good idea, what your broodlord can do against void ray... Do you play the game. Those types of games are legion on the server. If you crush the ball, you win unless the protoss the protoss has made enough production facilities or has already switch tech. At some point you just can't fight head on a 7 hatch zerg unless you are betting everything on your FF/Colossi or you have a good amount of gateway/robo/stargate to actually replenish your army. Cruncher never did try to harass, deny expo, kill drones, kill important structure... He was letting IdrA doing everything he wanted. That's all in, betting everything into one clash. And again, that's pretty funny to see all those protoss fanboys claiming it's all about IdrA. I could not careless about IdrA loosing, he can be such a BM player at time, but I'm here to entertain myself, not to see boring playstyle with no attack except timing push, turtling and shit. There is nothing off the chart with cruncher, he is always just playing standard protoss cheese / timing attacks. Of course Kas vs Haypro is a ZvT, but I'm not talking about the mu, I'm talking about the entertaining value of these matchs. Do *you* play the game? Honestly, please tell us how protoss should play so that you can be entertained. I can't wait to hear.
Adelscott ? Incontrol is much more interesting to see than cruncher imo. MC too, with his baller muscletoss play.
At least you see units dying all game long, you see army composition / attack timings changing from one game to another.
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The games of today, my review: in one word anticlimactic
1. IdrA vs Cruncher
Game 1: Totally abusive play by Cruncher turtling into deathball push making us all wonder about where is the action in an action driven game. Really hard for IdrA to punish him too ( he tried with a Nydus and an attack to the front but the architecture of the map made it so that the Protoss was quite defended).
Its the kind of game that makes us wonder about the actual game design. Its not that IdrA lost. Its not even a balance issue. When a matchup favores passive play and turtling from one side with very few downsides (read: IdrA had 8 bases at the end and couldnt stop the push) the game is utter crap.
No watchability, no excitement, no e-sports.
Game 2: Really nice Z drop harrass. Its rare that we see Zerg harrass with drops, this made a quite nice game.
Game 3: IdrA drones when the push comes and loses. The problem here is again with the scouting. IdrA had no idea that there was a 5 gate incoming. The build looks and feels exactly like a 3 gate-expand.
This game shows exactly another major flaw of SC2: limited scouting options to deal with an ever increasing pace of aggression. This leads to volatility of the match-ups and many dumb losses by better players. It also encourages cheesy and all-in plays, a little too much in my opinion.
And then there is the question of the forcefields: kinda frustrating to be on the receiving end of that thing, and again from a spectator point of view, casters screaming Beautiful Forcefields gets old quite quickly once you realize that forcefields are kind of always beautiful. Once the false hype goes off, all its left is the realization of the fact that the receiving end of the forcefields gets manhandled with very limited options in return.
2. Haypro vs Kas
These were really mediocre games. I am sorry about Haypro as he was promising with his GSL participations but he showed nothing interesting. Lots of micro failures from both sides as well as macro slip-ups.
Nothing much to comment.
3. Mondragon vs Zeerax
Thumbs up to Day9 and DJWheat for trying to make those games more exciting that they really were. All that "the counter to protoss air is just more roach" talk was quite funny but in the end it just hid the sad fact that the protoss played really badly and got punished for it.
Good micromanagement by Mondragon, would wish to see him against a better player going for those builds.
One last remark was again the lack of scouting from the Zerg. In game 1, Mondragon had absolutely no idea air play was coming. WIth such large bases and really slow overlords the timing window between the Protoss wall-in and the air-pressure is too small to get any info.
Especially as the alternative build: 6 gates requires a completely different response (queens/hydras vs roaches, spores vs spines). Again really hit or miss kind of thing, really toxic for a skill-based "sport"
4. TLO vs Nada
Really gimmicky play from TLO, I'm not surprised he lost. Nada dominated games 1 and 3 with solid play.
The only reason Nada lost game 2 is the fact that he forgot to research siege mode on his tanks before pushing out. That deadly push through the rocks would have been impossible to stop by TLO with battlecruisers so far away.
Conclusion: really dull and anticlimactic games for such promising names.
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EPT
