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Balance whining will result in a ban |
On March 28 2011 07:49 Demosthen3s wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:45 Suerte wrote:Does anyone know how long the VoD's tend to take to come out? I missed all of the games today  Tomorrow they will be up! Kudos to the TSL3 observer, who is doing the observing? Great job haven't seen anyone thank him yet. Pointing out lots of things calmy for the viewers, always listening to the casters and selecting everything they mention. Great work, underappreciated job! Looking forward to ro16.
It's Hot Bid observing and I'd like to tell him I'm willing to devote all my love to him as well for the amazing observing he has done so far.
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On March 28 2011 08:03 gozima wrote:
50k+ viewers for an "online" tournament cast from replays? What the hell is going on? Is all this taking place in some sort of alternate reality?
Regardless, entertaining games and look forward to next weekend.
I think it's just a testament to the great job TL is doing 
TSL's have always had the highest production values of any online tournament and I'm glad TSL3 is so successful so far.
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On March 28 2011 07:40 WhiteDog wrote:
You are mixing everything. Having 200/200 then pushing is not an all in, but going for a 200/200 void ray colossi on one robotics and two stargate is an all in. You push, but if you loose your army, you are never gonna be able to get your army fast enough to not die to the counter attack against a zerg on 7 bases, which means at least 7 hatch... Cruncher did not try to tech switch to templar, heavy gateway play, he did not even try to add on more stargate or more robo, why is that so? Because it was all in, his goal was to get that deathball out the faster possible, not delayed because he added more production facilities, not delayed because he would have taken one or two bases.
You're way too hypothetical. He doesn't need to be able to instantly reproduce his army because he's not going to lose it all at once. If you throw away your entire army you're not playing Protoss right, they're meant to keep their units alive. Zerg can throw units away and quickly rebuild them, but not Protoss. An all-in is typically defined by sacrificing economy or tech for one big attack, and that's not what the 200/200 deathball is at all. He didn't have to kill IdrA, he could've sat back and upgraded more, taken a 4th etc. but 1) he can easily kill IdrA, so why not do it and 2) IdrA threw all his Corruptors away to Void Rays in a lol-tastic manner so he had basically won already.
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All the Teamliquid members who received a free pass to TSL 3 eliminated. 1/2 of the legitimately qualified players, eliminated.
Ouch. At least it was Nada who eliminated TLO. Good game.
Let's hope Tyler can take it all home now, Tyler v MC, awesome.
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Wow, so much QQ on this thread. Haypro vs Kas was a TvZ, a completely different matchup."Turtling" is necessary in PvZ to an extent because protoss can't lose his gas heavy army too early in the game or he loses. If protoss wants to be super aggressive early he pretty much has to go all-in, in which case everyone would also complain. Seriously people, what do you want?
i'm personally not too frustrated with the way idra lost game 1, he made a few painful mistakes which i feel cost him the game (letting cruncher max when he was already maxed 30-40 food ahead, losing his initial corruptors to the void rays, then making lings after he lost his ground army) and ultimately the series. game 2 really showed the gap between the player skill, he was constantly in dominating control, and doubling cruncher's supply 10 minutes in is just...
my frustration was the fact that the force fields pushed and stacked 5 roaches into the space of 1. that just should not be possible.
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I actually finished 8/16 in my brackets... not too shabby I say.
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On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:On March 28 2011 07:22 Awesomeness wrote:On March 28 2011 07:16 WhiteDog wrote:
With the type of play Cruncher deliver he should not flame. Crushing through TSLOpen with four gates and 3 or so maccro game in the final, then giving us the joy to see a turtletoss on shakuras (and now I understand why they changed the map btw) and a six gate. That's the most boring playstyle of the universe.
Damn what have I done to see Zeerax and not cruncher advancing through, he seems more interesting. So if he plays a macro game it's boring and when he does a 2base-push it"s boring? What do you expect him to do? Play another race? People on this site are amazing at finding stuff to complain about. I found Idra to be much more bad mannered towards Cruncher than the other way around. He was also flaming Cloud at the FXOpen after he got destroyed 2:0. So yeah, I was really pleased to see him get knocked out today. So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that.
Cheers, I always try to entertain.
3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it.
If Protoss is only on 3 mining bases all game and the Zerg's on 10 then it really doesn't matter how cost effective that deathball is going to be because they're just going to crush you (eventually) because, after a while, due to the limited mining you have you simply can't afford to keep up (aka macro).
On March 28 2011 07:50 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:On March 28 2011 07:22 Awesomeness wrote:On March 28 2011 07:16 WhiteDog wrote:
With the type of play Cruncher deliver he should not flame. Crushing through TSLOpen with four gates and 3 or so maccro game in the final, then giving us the joy to see a turtletoss on shakuras (and now I understand why they changed the map btw) and a six gate. That's the most boring playstyle of the universe.
Damn what have I done to see Zeerax and not cruncher advancing through, he seems more interesting. So if he plays a macro game it's boring and when he does a 2base-push it"s boring? What do you expect him to do? Play another race? People on this site are amazing at finding stuff to complain about. I found Idra to be much more bad mannered towards Cruncher than the other way around. He was also flaming Cloud at the FXOpen after he got destroyed 2:0. So yeah, I was really pleased to see him get knocked out today. So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. You act as though all Protoss has to do is enter the game to their three bases established bases, turtle and win. Idra made two huge mistakes. 7 drones as the 6gate was incoming in game three and allowing Cruncher to establish his "protoss 1a death ball." in game one.
Turtling on 3 bases was all Cruncher had to do to win game 1 so, yeah, that's pretty much all they have to do (a point you seem to agree with with your comment of "and allowing Cruncher to establish his "protoss 1a death ball"").
Secondly, I wish people stop assuming I'm posting this because I'm sad/angry/annoyed/whatever that Idra lost. I hate him as a player and a person, hell I even got banned from TL when SC2 first got released for posting a comment about him.
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Why shouldn't we be allowed to 'exploit' map to our advantage. That's a basic of war...
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On March 28 2011 08:05 synfiction wrote:Show nested quote +Wow, so much QQ on this thread. Haypro vs Kas was a TvZ, a completely different matchup."Turtling" is necessary in PvZ to an extent because protoss can't lose his gas heavy army too early in the game or he loses. If protoss wants to be super aggressive early he pretty much has to go all-in, in which case everyone would also complain. Seriously people, what do you want? i'm personally not too frustrated with the way idra lost game 1, he made a few painful mistakes which i feel cost him the game (letting cruncher max when he was already maxed 30-40 food ahead, losing his initial corruptors to the void rays, then making lings after he lost his ground army) and ultimately the series. game 2 really showed the gap between the player skill, he was constantly in dominating control, and doubling cruncher's supply 10 minutes in is just... my frustration was the fact that the force fields pushed and stacked 5 roaches into the space of 1. that just should not be possible.
That's not really why he lost game 3 though. He was producing 7 drones when that was going down. Definitely a huge mistake - he was playing way too greedy in that situation.
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I can't wait for the VODs...stream was laggy for me today. LQ stream was laggier than HQ stream, too.
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Idras game bothered me because it showed zergs huge vulnerability to fakes. Idra had to choose between droning and making units. He didn't get to see all the gateways but did see the expo. Cruncher definitely had a good timing, it was a bit earlier than your normal 6th gate. I think idea thought cruncher was bluffing and so he made drones. Gg,
I think the main issue with pvp and zvp lies within how effective warpgates make allins and semi allins way too effective. There should be some benefit to normal gateways, like making units faster, compared to warpgates.
That said, it was a very strong mindgame from cruncher, and he hit idras weakness.
Bit sad that there are basically no benefits beyond having 3 mining bases, unlike brood war
My favs were tlo vs nasal tho. Just great exciting play,
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United States15275 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:58 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:54 Disposition1989 wrote:
1 base all in used to be cheese, then 2 base all in was considered cheese. now 3 base all in is frowned upon. anyone see a problem with this trend? wowwwwwwwww If these 2 base 6gate builds are not cheese, then it does not look good for the future of this game. People WILL get tired of that shit, which if you read any of the GSL LR threads, people are already doing it very quickly. Games like Haypro vs Kas are interesting. Games where protoss makes sentries and stalkers and pushes are not. The protoss either destroys with force fields, or loses their gas heavy army and loses. It's "one big attack" syndrome, something that happens waaaaay too much in ZvP. If you watch SanZenith vs NesTea in last GSL, that is a game where a protoss does not sit and make a deathball. There is constant DT, archons, storms zealot harass, warp prisms, expansions, etc.
6-gate is not a all-in.
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On March 28 2011 08:06 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:On March 28 2011 07:22 Awesomeness wrote:
[quote]
So if he plays a macro game it's boring and when he does a 2base-push it"s boring? What do you expect him to do? Play another race?
People on this site are amazing at finding stuff to complain about. I found Idra to be much more bad mannered towards Cruncher than the other way around. He was also flaming Cloud at the FXOpen after he got destroyed 2:0. So yeah, I was really pleased to see him get knocked out today. So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that. Cheers, I always try to entertain. 3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it.
3 bases mining is optimal because of how many workers each base can support. To saturate four bases you'd need way too many probes and your army would suffer.
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On March 28 2011 08:07 exhumator wrote:
I can't wait for the VODs...stream was laggy for me today. LQ stream was laggier than HQ stream, too.
Do you happen to live in the UK? I had 2 friends who live in the UK telling me it was unbearable to watch Ustream, while both streams were great for me.
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On March 28 2011 07:58 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:54 Disposition1989 wrote:
1 base all in used to be cheese, then 2 base all in was considered cheese. now 3 base all in is frowned upon. anyone see a problem with this trend? wowwwwwwwww If these 2 base 6gate builds are not cheese, then it does not look good for the future of this game. People WILL get tired of that shit, which if you read any of the GSL LR threads, people are already doing it very quickly. Games like Haypro vs Kas are interesting. Games where protoss makes sentries and stalkers and pushes are not. The protoss either destroys with force fields, or loses their gas heavy army and loses. It's "one big attack" syndrome, something that happens waaaaay too much in ZvP. If you watch SanZenith vs NesTea in last GSL, that is a game where a protoss does not sit and make a deathball. There is constant DT, archons, storms zealot harass, warp prisms, expansions, etc.
Like they have a choice - sit down and compare how weak toss GW units are to RH/MM for what they cost. Your only choice is gate rushes with FF before the other races get critical mass because you can't keep up due to cost or turtle and go tier 3 w/col/VR. Dynamics were made worse with HT nerf and you won't see a sen nestea game again with that nerf. Carriers are not viable and now HT's arnt either. I'm afraid you'll be seeing more of the same.
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I loved Idra's play in game 2 verse Cruncher. It was the same strat July used to break MC in the GSL when he went forge fast expand straight to starport.
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Well idra's arrogance backfired pretty damn hard.
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On March 28 2011 08:06 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:On March 28 2011 07:22 Awesomeness wrote:
[quote]
So if he plays a macro game it's boring and when he does a 2base-push it"s boring? What do you expect him to do? Play another race?
People on this site are amazing at finding stuff to complain about. I found Idra to be much more bad mannered towards Cruncher than the other way around. He was also flaming Cloud at the FXOpen after he got destroyed 2:0. So yeah, I was really pleased to see him get knocked out today. So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that. Cheers, I always try to entertain. 3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it. If Protoss is only on 3 mining bases all game and the Zerg's on 10 then it really doesn't matter how cost effective that deathball is going to be because they're just going to crush you (eventually) because, after a while, due to the limited mining you have you simply can't afford to keep up (aka macro). Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:50 jenzebubble wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:On March 28 2011 07:22 Awesomeness wrote:
[quote]
So if he plays a macro game it's boring and when he does a 2base-push it"s boring? What do you expect him to do? Play another race?
People on this site are amazing at finding stuff to complain about. I found Idra to be much more bad mannered towards Cruncher than the other way around. He was also flaming Cloud at the FXOpen after he got destroyed 2:0. So yeah, I was really pleased to see him get knocked out today. So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. You act as though all Protoss has to do is enter the game to their three bases established bases, turtle and win. Idra made two huge mistakes. 7 drones as the 6gate was incoming in game three and allowing Cruncher to establish his "protoss 1a death ball." in game one. Turtling on 3 bases was all Cruncher had to do to win game 1 so, yeah, that's pretty much all they have to do (a point you seem to agree with with your comment of "and allowing Cruncher to establish his "protoss 1a death ball""). Secondly, I wish people stop assuming I'm posting this because I'm sad/angry/annoyed/whatever that Idra lost. I hate him as a player and a person, hell I even got banned from TL when SC2 first got released for posting a comment about him.
Oh boy, lots of hate out of nowhere. Dont really get it.
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On March 28 2011 07:51 Primadog wrote:
Regarding lag, this is the comparison between players on EU or NA servers versus Korea or Asian servers:
Server 7:5 (17:14) - 55%
EU\NA : Korean\Asia
Goody 2:1 NesTea
Adelscott 2:0 MVP
Ciara 0:2 MC
NightEnD 1:2 BoxeR
ThorZaIN 2:0 FruitDealer
TLO 1:2 NaDa
QXC 2:0 Genius
HasuObs 2:1 Huk
Fenix 0:2 Sen
Loner 1:2 White-Ra
MorroW 2:1 Jinro
Kas 2:1 HayprO
Wow. You screwed this up pretty bad. Counted White-Ra as being in Korea, even though his games were played from EU, counted Fenix vs Sen even though that was played equally on both servers. It really looks like this. EU 18 vs KR 10 with only Boxer, Nada, and MC winning for an 8-3 series record for the EU side of the EU-NA-KR connection. With the exception of Haypro vs Kas all were upsets.
Yes there's nothing TSL could do about this, and yes Nada/Huk/MC/Jinro all have experience with the lag and were able to deal with it better proving that to some degree it is possible to overcome with proper preparation, but coming out and posting flat out wrong information does the issue no favors.
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On March 28 2011 08:10 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:06 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:49 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:38 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:36 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:33 skycaptain wrote:On March 28 2011 07:30 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:27 Tyree wrote:On March 28 2011 07:25 Conversion wrote:
[quote]
So I heard being outbased 7:3 is a "macro" game
It was a macro game, what are you even trying to debate here? Are you telling us it was a 3 base allin or something? Essentially, it basically was. his entire plan was to turtle to 200/200 colossi/void ray and then push. If the push failed, he'd of lost the game because Idra would have had a stupid amount of bases. Sounds like an all-in to me. Not really. Protoss macros up to 200/200 and then pushes while taking his fourth base. It's very standard and not all in at all. Hurtling to 200/200 -> Taking 4th = Macro game? Good to know. Yes. It is a macro game. Sorry if you want to see protoss take 8 bases before they max out every game. That's not how Starcraft 2 works. Your hyperbole is pretty good. I didn't say anything about Protoss taking 8 bases before max, I said that taking your 4th once you're maxed is definitely not a macro oriented play style. I'm sorry that you're a Protoss player who assumes that 3 bases = macro. Thanks, I find your smug and all-knowing demeanor entertaining as well. If that's not a macro oriented play-style, then you'll have to enlighten me as to what is. Because 3-mining bases is pretty much optimal for protoss. And I really haven't seen any professional protoss player play much differently than that. Cheers, I always try to entertain. 3 mining bases is only optimal for Protoss' "deathball" style of play and only because, generally, the current maps allow you to turtle on 3 bases pretty effectively. If it was possible to turtle on 4 bases with one big army (since the deathball relies on not being split) then that would become the "optimal" number for Protoss. If you're going pure gateway units all game long (see Adell vs MVP, I know it's a different matchup) then you need to a lot more bases because your stuff's going to die a lot so you need to be able to replenish it. 3 bases mining is optimal because of how many workers each base can support. To saturate four bases you'd need way too many probes and your army would suffer.
This assumes that you even want to saturate a 4th base. Just having an extra base for the gas alone is huge and something Zerg players have been doing for ages (admittedly their race is more suited for it though). But since Protoss rely so heavily on gas heavy units (sentry, colossus, high templar, void ray etc.) it's not infeasible for Protoss to start taking extra bases purely for gas.
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