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Protoss is the most powerful race ATM. Zerg was in the beta before the Roach nerf. Terran was pre GSL 5. The "OPness" fluctuates.
Just like Terran in BW, Zerg is no doubt the hardest race to play, but it is also the most rewarding, as indicated by 2 Zerg Champions and Losira, and the Terran dominance in BW (especially earlier on). Terran was the weakest race in the beginning of BW, but once people figured out how to play it well (Boxer) There was the three most dominant BW players in history (Nada, Boxer, Oov) and now Flash. That's why there are so little Zergs in the GSL right now, but I think a couple years from now, Zergs will be the most populous race, but for now, they suffer.
That said, I'm a Protoss player and the third game made me sad to watch : | IdrA totally had that
tl;dr- BW Terran=SC2 Zerg
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On March 14 2011 07:34 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:43 Raiznhell wrote:
IdrA loses a best of 3, 2-1 and the game is imbalanced this is dumb. If this minuscule series can dictate that then I say ZvZ Assembly finals,2 and possibly 3 GSL Zerg champions, Zerg Code A champion all dictate Zerg is OP. NOT.
IdrA did not play up to par and nobody can argue that.
lil' newbies like myself can tell that getting THAT many Corruptors for such few Collossi(and no Broodlords) and not getting the gas geysers at the bottom 3rd and 4rth bases means he didn't play up to the level of his opponent in this match. So many things can factor into this in that IdrA has been spending the past little while moving back to America and is in a bad mindset.
Regardless, Julyzerg has been crushing face and not even doing anything "right" by IdrAs standards like not having good creep spread and also doing fail banelings drops and so many things. It's obviously not stupidly broken. Having the majority of your army being corruptors is not a good army composition. Bad decision making is what lead to IdrA losing.
You really, really do not know what you are talking about. He only had about 10 corruptors for about 4-5 collosi. That is what you need to down the collissi. And as for Julyzerg i'm pretty sure most top level Zergs and many other pros agree that he is really over hyped. Sure he has a cool agressive style, but he really is gimmicky and did not deserve to win against MVP at all. He got lucky when mvp lifted his rax and it was gg. No skill involved.
So, he doesn't know what he is talking about but you do... interesting, what qualifies you to be right and him to be wrong? And the fact that you are saying July is over-hyped and plays really gimmicky just shows that you know less than the person you were saying the same about.
This game is a jokie
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On March 14 2011 09:43 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 09:17 bkrow wrote:Well he is playing in the SGL Playoffs soon against ROOT and they have 2 Protoss in their line up .. so i hope he can figure something out and get an All Kill hehe  On March 14 2011 09:16 imbs wrote:On March 14 2011 07:12 bkrow wrote:On March 14 2011 07:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 14 2011 06:23 BigBoy22 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:21 Skyze wrote:On March 14 2011 06:13 Tachion wrote:On March 14 2011 06:11 Skyze wrote:
Not to mention ragequitting at first sight of a voidray in game 1 when he was still ahead???
I would really love to hear the thought that went into this comment. Please please show me how he was ahead when he gg'd out. He had map control, enough roaches to hold off any kind of warp counter attack.. had lair and even tho he didnt have a hydra den started, 3 queens EASILY takes out one voidray, esp one that still has half the map to travel. The game was very even at that point, and as I said I think idra was ahead even, he had better drone saturation and more units on the map, along with a solid tech tree up. Of course game could of went either way, but NO WAY should he of ragequit the game at that point, it was at least 50/50 at that point in the game.. and to the kid saying why dont I "prove it"... uh, go watch July in GSL. Hes not playing european protoss players, hes playing Top level GSL Protoss in AnyPro and just 3-1'd him. If Protoss was so much better than zerg, how did July win? Youre talking about 1 zerg in the world getting into the final, let me ask you- where are the other zergs? Why are the better players right now all protosses? Why can Jinro not figure out a way to beat toss effectively? Why cant a zerg do the same? .. right. Most of my TvPs make it look worse than it actually is because im bad vs protoss. I love how IdrA goes down in a Bo3 against a seriously good Protoss and the game is imbalance, Protoss is invincible and all of "us" are retarded for not coddling to all the zerg QQ .. the reason why people take idra whine more seriously than others is because idra is one of the best macro players in the game and one of the best zergs aswell, and he lost in a macro game pretty handily to a mid-tier foreign protoss. no offense intended - i personally think idra played beneath his best in the final game, and naniwa is obviously good - but yea. I am unsure but did you just reference Naniwa as a "mid-tier foreign Protoss" .. that is a pretty silly statement to make.. Naniwa is a solid contender and if not for some immature controversy on his part; he would be a household name (if he isn't already..) IdrA is one of the best zergs in the game without a doubt; but believe it or not he is capable of making mistakes.. Hive Tech units? I'm not saying ZvP is or isn't broken or any comment on balance; but because IdrA is so vocal - everytime he loses a game, the zerg army unites in a massive "Zerg so UP" posting bananza.. IdrA is capable of being one of the best macro zergs; but he is also one of the worst at adapting and can be incredibly predictable.. It's just frustrating to see the amount of crap posts that one Bo3 loss for a zerg can accrue.. i agree mostly, i didnt mean that naniwa is just another foreigner or anything like that, i just meant that hes seen as "lesser" than idra so yea people will unquestioningly put it down to imba.
Anyone who pays attention to the eu scene would consider naniwas pvz one of the best outside of korea tbh
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Wouldn't a logical response to the cross positions/Protoss completely walling off simply be to expand away from the top and the corridor/plateau of death? Or is that too much of a gamble?
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On March 14 2011 06:52 Skyze wrote:
Not only did zerg win 3 of the 6 GSL tournies so far (Code A included).. they also won the GSL All-Stars in November, 16 invited best in the world, a zerg won. (Kyrix)..
So, out of 7 GSL hosted events so far in Korea, Zerg has won 4 of them. AND in the next one right now, there is a zerg in the finals.
Yeah.. I think zerg is fine. Protoss is 1/7.
that is not how you measure balance... omg... isn't it obvious?
first of all, small sample size. secondly, you are talking about GSL, the tournament with the best players where talent overcome small balance issues.
it is sad that I have to come here to explain something so obvious to someone...
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On March 14 2011 11:37 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:52 Skyze wrote:
Not only did zerg win 3 of the 6 GSL tournies so far (Code A included).. they also won the GSL All-Stars in November, 16 invited best in the world, a zerg won. (Kyrix)..
So, out of 7 GSL hosted events so far in Korea, Zerg has won 4 of them. AND in the next one right now, there is a zerg in the finals.
Yeah.. I think zerg is fine. Protoss is 1/7. that is not how you measure balance... omg... isn't it obvious? first of all, small sample size. secondly, you are talking about GSL, the tournament with the best players where talent overcome small balance issues. it is sad that I have to come here to explain something so obvious to someone...
It's more sad that you think you you're the only one with this knowledge...
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On March 14 2011 06:51 vdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:23 Gowa wrote:
When Naniwa began to snipe Idra's third the supplies were 110 against 170.
Everyone who understands the game should /facepalm seeing how easily protoss can be ukillable. The natural is safe thanks to the wall, the army is shooting and is invincible thanks to forcefields. The only way zerg could have cleaned this attack is by having randomly built a nydus network then made a way out at the top right corner (or is it ?)
And didn't we sene him moving an overlord to check the rocks hp? I think he was aware of that,
It's not about Idra "making excuses" or just bitching around, it is about a player who has more game knowledge than any of us calling for justice after a game he should have won.
everyone who understands the game knows that zerg is supposed to have more supply, if they build roaches. 150/50 in Roaches -> 4 supply 125/50 in Stalker -> 2 supply Stop pointing at supply in ZvP, that doesn't show anything.
Sooo what you're saying is that Zerg's maxed army is SUPPOSED to be equal to a 140/200 protoss army? What the fuck, then, is Zerg supposed to do against a 200/200 protoss army, especially considering the Zerg has almost definitely had to invest 20-30 supply in corruptors to stop either phoenix or colossus? Roaches feel like they're a rather necessary component of a Zerg's army merely for their ability to soak damage. The alternative to fill their role is Ultralisks, which get comically annihalated by immortals, as well as take forever to build and are extremely gas-heavy.
Because there is a maximum supply in SC2, pointing to supply counts is fully relevant. If a 150 supply zerg army/economy is not supposed to be able to take on and beat a protoss supply and economy that is a full 40 food shorter, what is the advantage to Zerg? Why play Zerg when your "advantage" is a lower effective food cap?
-that said- I don't think Zerg is underpowered, and I believe there are things Zerg can do to beat protoss consistently... but I do acknowledge that there's something funky going on with the viability of Zerg's T3 units, and the total uselessness of corruptors after they've done their task. If there was an advantage to give in ZvP, I'd find it hard to claim it was Zerg at the advantage. It's not insurmountable, but it does come across as entering a boxing ring with one arm three inches shorter than the other.
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On March 14 2011 11:37 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:52 Skyze wrote:
Not only did zerg win 3 of the 6 GSL tournies so far (Code A included).. they also won the GSL All-Stars in November, 16 invited best in the world, a zerg won. (Kyrix)..
So, out of 7 GSL hosted events so far in Korea, Zerg has won 4 of them. AND in the next one right now, there is a zerg in the finals.
Yeah.. I think zerg is fine. Protoss is 1/7. that is not how you measure balance... omg... isn't it obvious? first of all, small sample size. secondly, you are talking about GSL, the tournament with the best players where talent overcome small balance issues. it is sad that I have to come here to explain something so obvious to someone...
but isnt that what a lot of the zergs use to complain about their race? they too bring up similar small sample sizes too "prove" imbalance, and often call tournaments where zerg players win just a fluke. leave balance to the designers, they know what they are doing.
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On March 14 2011 09:17 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 09:11 kNyTTyM wrote:
Meh I've stopped following Idra as much as I did before. His style just doesn't suit zerg at the moment and I doubt a patch is going to help. idras "style" is arguably the way zerg was meant to be played. julys style is extremely risky all-in stuff most of the time.
IdrA's style is not the way zerg is meant to be played. He lacks the multi-tasking and the APM to play it at its full potential (and dare I say, his decision-making is questionable). If Jaedong was playing SC2, he would be macroing better than IdrA, attacking better than July and make decisions better than NesTea. He would make zerg ridiculously imbalanced.
If you want to call July's style "all-in", then I just pity your self-righteous limitation on strategy. July senses an opportunity and responds accordingly like any good RTS player. July proactively scouts for these opportunities whilst IdrA only looks for moments to drone up, take an extra expo, or end the game right there. He lacks the brutal decisiveness to seize every single advantage he can get, which is the trademark of every single great zerg player in the history of BW.
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On March 14 2011 11:50 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 11:37 ilbh wrote:On March 14 2011 06:52 Skyze wrote:
Not only did zerg win 3 of the 6 GSL tournies so far (Code A included).. they also won the GSL All-Stars in November, 16 invited best in the world, a zerg won. (Kyrix)..
So, out of 7 GSL hosted events so far in Korea, Zerg has won 4 of them. AND in the next one right now, there is a zerg in the finals.
Yeah.. I think zerg is fine. Protoss is 1/7. that is not how you measure balance... omg... isn't it obvious? first of all, small sample size. secondly, you are talking about GSL, the tournament with the best players where talent overcome small balance issues. it is sad that I have to come here to explain something so obvious to someone... but isnt that what a lot of the zergs use to complain about their race? they too bring up similar small sample sizes too "prove" imbalance, and often call tournaments where zerg players win just a fluke. leave balance to the designers, they know what they are doing.
Some were invoking several THOUSANDS of games in the TL Opens.
Just saying...
I think there IS imbalance in the game. But that is not meant for this topic.
I'm sad Idra lost, I really like he guy and really think he is good. And EG is one of my favorite clans.
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On March 14 2011 12:32 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 09:17 imbs wrote:On March 14 2011 09:11 kNyTTyM wrote:
Meh I've stopped following IdrA as much as I did before. His style just doesn't suit zerg at the moment and I doubt a patch is going to help. idras "style" is arguably the Way zerg was meant to be played. julys style is extremely risky all-in stuff most of the time. If you WanT to call July's style "all-in", then I just pity your self-righteous limitation on strategy. July senses an opportunity and responds accordingly like any good RTS player. July proactively scouts for these opportunities whilst IdrA Only looks for moments to drone up, take an extra expo, or End the game right there. He lacks the brutal decisiveness to seize every single advantage he can get, Which is the trademark of every single great zerg player in the HistOry of BW.
Yeh, July is Way better imo, he'd be much harder to prepare against because you just don't know what he will do. It's Not like he only allins.
Anyway, congrats to Dignitas, was Really hoping they won. Happy Birthday to NaNiwa, this was Nice birthday present for you Love it how every time IdrA loses the thread spirals out of control with Lots of tears flowing.
This game is a jokie!
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Damn Naniwa is good. Thanks for posting this.
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On March 14 2011 12:32 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 09:17 imbs wrote:On March 14 2011 09:11 kNyTTyM wrote:
Meh I've stopped following Idra as much as I did before. His style just doesn't suit zerg at the moment and I doubt a patch is going to help. idras "style" is arguably the way zerg was meant to be played. julys style is extremely risky all-in stuff most of the time. IdrA's style is not the way zerg is meant to be played. He lacks the multi-tasking and the APM to play it at its full potential (and dare I say, his decision-making is questionable). If Jaedong was playing SC2, he would be macroing better than IdrA, attacking better than July and make decisions better than NesTea. He would make zerg ridiculously imbalanced. If you want to call July's style "all-in", then I just pity your self-righteous limitation on strategy. July senses an opportunity and responds accordingly like any good RTS player. July proactively scouts for these opportunities whilst IdrA only looks for moments to drone up, take an extra expo, or end the game right there. He lacks the brutal decisiveness to seize every single advantage he can get, which is the trademark of every single great zerg player in the history of BW.
So what you are saying is that IdrA is a macro player, and Zerg is, surprisingly, not really a macro race. There is some sense in this, especially as we recall that IdrA's original reason for picking Zerg was because everyone thought Zerg was the macro race. It turns out, however, that other races are actually more macro-friendly while Zerg is left with the task of stopping Protoss and Terran before they reach "critical mass." Ironically Protoss and Terran are the two races that would favor IdrA's defensive macro-oriented play more in the current meta-game.
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On March 14 2011 11:37 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:52 Skyze wrote:
Not only did zerg win 3 of the 6 GSL tournies so far (Code A included).. they also won the GSL All-Stars in November, 16 invited best in the world, a zerg won. (Kyrix)..
So, out of 7 GSL hosted events so far in Korea, Zerg has won 4 of them. AND in the next one right now, there is a zerg in the finals.
Yeah.. I think zerg is fine. Protoss is 1/7. that is not how you measure balance... omg... isn't it obvious? first of all, small sample size. secondly, you are talking about GSL, the tournament with the best players where talent overcome small balance issues. it is sad that I have to come here to explain something so obvious to someone...
small sample size? LOL
Yea lets add in some bronze leaguers map statistics!
The reason why the top 30~ players in the world are a good sample size is b/c you can say they are playing their race to their maximum potential. You cant balance a game based off shitty players, blizzard already does that, its called WoW.
Hopefully they wont do it for SC2. If someone is bad at their race, then you should help them by buffing their race? That doesnt make sense... Idra made some bad decisions in Game3 and deserved to lose.
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On March 14 2011 11:45 GreEny K wrote:
It's more sad that you think you you're the only one with this knowledge...
never said I'm the only one LOL
On March 14 2011 14:11 LumberJack wrote:
small sample size? LOL
Yea lets add in some bronze leaguers map statistics!
The reason why the top 30~ players in the world are a good sample size is b/c you can say they are playing their race to their maximum potential. You cant balance a game based off shitty players, blizzard already does that, its called WoW.
Hopefully they wont do it for SC2. If someone is bad at their race, then you should help them by buffing their race? That doesnt make sense... Idra made some bad decisions in Game3 and deserved to lose.
I didn't say that you should balance around bronze level. I just said that the number of GSL wins of each race isn't the way to measure balance.
you got to remember that we had a lot of patches since the first GSL too, it is not only the small sample size... maps have changed, etc.
I have also said that idra made a lot of mistakes, I'm not saying the game is or is not balanced.
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IdrA just doesn't have any strategy except droning up. Sad to say his decision making is terrible.
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After all, good job Dignitas, good job Naniwa. And you guys,,, don't be such an Idra funboy.... he is one of the best, that doesn't, mean he needs to win all of his matches...
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i think if your comparing these two players and who played better by comparing supply numbers you have an even lower understanding of the game then me -.-
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Good games
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On March 14 2011 07:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 06:23 BigBoy22 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:21 Skyze wrote:On March 14 2011 06:13 Tachion wrote:On March 14 2011 06:11 Skyze wrote:
Not to mention ragequitting at first sight of a voidray in game 1 when he was still ahead???
I would really love to hear the thought that went into this comment. Please please show me how he was ahead when he gg'd out. He had map control, enough roaches to hold off any kind of warp counter attack.. had lair and even tho he didnt have a hydra den started, 3 queens EASILY takes out one voidray, esp one that still has half the map to travel. The game was very even at that point, and as I said I think idra was ahead even, he had better drone saturation and more units on the map, along with a solid tech tree up. Of course game could of went either way, but NO WAY should he of ragequit the game at that point, it was at least 50/50 at that point in the game.. and to the kid saying why dont I "prove it"... uh, go watch July in GSL. Hes not playing european protoss players, hes playing Top level GSL Protoss in AnyPro and just 3-1'd him. If Protoss was so much better than zerg, how did July win? Youre talking about 1 zerg in the world getting into the final, let me ask you- where are the other zergs? Why are the better players right now all protosses? Why can Jinro not figure out a way to beat toss effectively? Why cant a zerg do the same? .. right. Most of my TvPs make it look worse than it actually is because im bad vs protoss.
Every terran (and zerg) are bad vs protoss I fear :o
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EPT
