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On March 02 2011 04:04 Azarkon wrote:
It's worth realizing that part of the reason GSL players have better mechanics is because many if not most of them come from Korean BW backgrounds. As Ret, Tyler, and Idra - ie just about everyone who's been to Korea for BW - pointed out on many separate occasions, the mechanics possessed by Korean BW pro-gamers - be they A-teamers or B-teamers - are matched by very few foreigners, and are the result of years of training. It's no surprise that most foreigners, who have never attained mechanics comparable to Korean BW pro-gamers, are not up to par mechanics-wise in SC 2. You have to train, hard, for that kind of mechanics and most foreigners just aren't willing/able to do that.
I have a VERY hard time believing "mechanics" are what is separating Koreans from everyone else.
In BW, sure, there is a huge demand on a player mechanically because of the borked AI to everything else, but SC2 has been SO dumbed down compared to BW, I have a hard time buying the "Koreans have better mechanics" argument for the difference in skill.
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I may be blind but I only see two SC2 vods...?
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Had a great first day. I really appreciate the streaming in 21312309183 languages and the change to the HD event stream, surely a big invention. The minor problems should be solved tomorrow so I'm looking forward to an even better day 2.
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When you read about how an ordinary day of a Korean sc2 pro-gamer is and compare it to how it is for some of the top players in Europe, you can't really be surprised that the Koreans are getting better as a group.
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On March 02 2011 04:24 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:04 Azarkon wrote:
It's worth realizing that part of the reason GSL players have better mechanics is because many if not most of them come from Korean BW backgrounds. As Ret, Tyler, and Idra - ie just about everyone who's been to Korea for BW - pointed out on many separate occasions, the mechanics possessed by Korean BW pro-gamers - be they A-teamers or B-teamers - are matched by very few foreigners, and are the result of years of training. It's no surprise that most foreigners, who have never attained mechanics comparable to Korean BW pro-gamers, are not up to par mechanics-wise in SC 2. You have to train, hard, for that kind of mechanics and most foreigners just aren't willing/able to do that. I have a VERY hard time believing "mechanics" are what is separating Koreans from everyone else. In BW, sure, there is a huge demand on a player mechanically because of the borked AI to everything else, but SC2 has been SO dumbed down compared to BW, I have a hard time buying the "Koreans have better mechanics" argument for the difference in skill.
Oh come on, stop with the "SC2 is so easy compared to BW" argument. It's getting old.
Most important part of the argument you quoted wasn't "mechanics" but "training". Koreans live and train by a schedule most other progamers can only dream of (either in the positive or the nightmare sense of the word). And it shows. There's more to "mechanics" than finger speed and multitasking; it's the general routine and experience you get from hard, continuous training.
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I'd really be interested if Moon, who most people consider to be pretty much average in Korea, does well in the group stages tomorrow.
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The replays are in the results:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/hanover/sc2_groupstage/
klick on the "vs." between the gamers and you can download the replays... .
Ace played really nice. I watched every replay and he was just superior every time. He played whatever he wanted to play, no matter against T, Z or P. Even the stargate opening vs Tarson on shakuras was just lol wtf. It was a pure skill and micro based play. He was always 5 worker ahead and played with a good overview.
In this case not the tactic made the difference or the right unit choice. It was using every kind of unit in its best way.
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As a spectator I don't care who is better. Morrow played the most exciting games tonight. And QXC had some entertaining games eventhough he lost all matches.
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On March 02 2011 04:24 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:04 Azarkon wrote:
It's worth realizing that part of the reason GSL players have better mechanics is because many if not most of them come from Korean BW backgrounds. As Ret, Tyler, and Idra - ie just about everyone who's been to Korea for BW - pointed out on many separate occasions, the mechanics possessed by Korean BW pro-gamers - be they A-teamers or B-teamers - are matched by very few foreigners, and are the result of years of training. It's no surprise that most foreigners, who have never attained mechanics comparable to Korean BW pro-gamers, are not up to par mechanics-wise in SC 2. You have to train, hard, for that kind of mechanics and most foreigners just aren't willing/able to do that. I have a VERY hard time believing "mechanics" are what is separating Koreans from everyone else. In BW, sure, there is a huge demand on a player mechanically because of the borked AI to everything else, but SC2 has been SO dumbed down compared to BW, I have a hard time buying the "Koreans have better mechanics" argument for the difference in skill.
It's not just mechanics, however mechanics make a huge difference, with Protoss especially, given that every second you wait before warping in units is a massive loss of efficiency (since the gateways aren't 'producing'), and every chrono boost you don't use is also a huge loss of efficiency. With this efficiency the better players are going to always have 1 or 2 more units which they can turn into a huge advantage on the battlefield.
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Great, the only way to the replays is through spoiling the results..
horrible vod coverage for such a major event
I even tried to watch some CS vods because there was no SC2 left, and all the CS vods are labeled wrong, mostly downtime with music, and then fragments of CS and SC2 matches in spanish..
Reading complaints might get old quick, but i think it's bloody well justified in this situation..
**punches hole in wall 
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On March 02 2011 04:24 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:04 Azarkon wrote:
It's worth realizing that part of the reason GSL players have better mechanics is because many if not most of them come from Korean BW backgrounds. As Ret, Tyler, and Idra - ie just about everyone who's been to Korea for BW - pointed out on many separate occasions, the mechanics possessed by Korean BW pro-gamers - be they A-teamers or B-teamers - are matched by very few foreigners, and are the result of years of training. It's no surprise that most foreigners, who have never attained mechanics comparable to Korean BW pro-gamers, are not up to par mechanics-wise in SC 2. You have to train, hard, for that kind of mechanics and most foreigners just aren't willing/able to do that. I have a VERY hard time believing "mechanics" are what is separating Koreans from everyone else. In BW, sure, there is a huge demand on a player mechanically because of the borked AI to everything else, but SC2 has been SO dumbed down compared to BW, I have a hard time buying the "Koreans have better mechanics" argument for the difference in skill.
Especially if you watch the VODs. Ace didn't win because of his mechanics
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On March 02 2011 04:43 teacash wrote:Great, the only way to the replays is through spoiling the results.. horrible vod coverage for such a major event I even tried to watch some CS vods because there was no SC2 left, and all the CS vods are labeled wrong, mostly downtime with music, and then fragments of CS and SC2 matches in spanish.. Reading complaints might get old quick, but i think it's bloody well justified in this situation.. **punches hole in wall
yeah probably i should spoil the link too, sorry.
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Fact is foreigners try to hard to believe their own fairytale about skill balance S-Korea vs Westerners.
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On March 02 2011 04:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Fact is foreigners try to hard to believe their own fairytale about skill balance S-Korea vs Westerners.
It's not a fairy tale. When you see 2 great Koreans (TOP and InCa) at dreamhack perform less than stellar and 2 foreigners in the ro8 in GSL you realize it's not too big a skill difference. sc2 is really random right now, just look at this GSL. I'm sick of these incredibly shortsighted people make giant assumptions based on a tiny bit of data.
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Mechanics translate strategy into reality. It is a means to harmonize intent and outcome. One way in which mechanics shine through is by minimizing mistakes, and since SC 2 is a game of seconds - as Day9 put it - minimizing mistakes is of utmost importance.
Consider Ace's game against Idra on Shakuras. When Idra attacked Ace through the backdoor, he had all of 1 sentry (with a single force field) and a half-finished void ray. Idra had something like 10 roaches and 20 zerglings. This is a very difficult situation to be in. Any lapse in judgment and execution - for example, misplacing one force field, chrono boosting one too many probe, moving workers too late, or just panicking outright is going to lead to a lost game.
Yet, Ace defended just about perfectly. He FF'd the ramp just as Idra's units were about to rush in. He then pulled all his workers from the main to the natural. He chrono boosted out another two sentries. Sent his void ray to attack the roaches. Sacrificed the nexus in his main (and had the foresight to not build his tech structures there), instantly started pumping out phoenixes after getting two void rays, and transformed what seemed like a BO loss into a win.
Imagine if a player with lesser mechanics was at the helm. Could he have made exactly the moves necessary to save himself? Just imagine - one less chrono boost, one less FF, a phoenix instead of a void ray first, or even just a slower void ray, would've been game breaking. To some this is just Ace being fortunate - "blind countering" Idra, to others, however, it is an uncanny testament to how solid he is, mechanically.
Watching the foreigner games, by contrast, you see a lot of mechanics mistakes being made. White-Ra storming air units incorrectly. Morrow forgetting to research Hydra range. Qxc (or was it Tarson?) floating thousands of minerals and gas due to insufficient numbers of production buildings. All of these add up in the game of seconds, and this is why Ace seemed to always be one step ahead.
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On March 02 2011 04:43 teacash wrote:Great, the only way to the replays is through spoiling the results.. horrible vod coverage for such a major event I even tried to watch some CS vods because there was no SC2 left, and all the CS vods are labeled wrong, mostly downtime with music, and then fragments of CS and SC2 matches in spanish.. Reading complaints might get old quick, but i think it's bloody well justified in this situation.. **punches hole in wall
TRUE THAT! what a pain in the ass to try to watch all the VODS. half off half on and mislabeled.
i'd expect more from the ESL. They should take a look at the GOMTV setup 
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On March 02 2011 03:55 entlassen wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not saying I agree with the Korean view of things, but I totally feel that many foreign fans are just ITCHING for the day to dethrone Koreans and laugh in their faces. Sad to say, but judging from the last week's tournament games it's not gonna happen anytime soon. Ret knocked out of Code A first round Haypro knocked out of Code A first round Loner knocked out of Code A first round IdrA realized he couldn't hang with the big boys and retreated back to the west Ace, a medicore korean player who can't even advance in Code A, kills the world's top foreign players Although Jinro and Huk are still alive, it's clear that the world is not catching up to Korea. In fact it's just the opposite: Whatever small amount of ground foreigners had, they are quickly losing it and getting phased out.
II don't think Idra is leaving because he can’t "hang". I believe he is coming back because he can make more money in US and Euro scene, EG as a western based organization gains more from him being in the US, and he gets to be home. Why play in a foreign country, and potentially make less money when he can come home, be a star, make more money, and travel around the world…
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On March 02 2011 04:56 FrostShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Fact is foreigners try to hard to believe their own fairytale about skill balance S-Korea vs Westerners. It's not a fairy tale. When you see 2 great Koreans (TOP and InCa) at dreamhack perform less than stellar and 2 foreigners in the ro8 in GSL you realize it's not too big a skill difference. sc2 is really random right now, just look at this GSL. I'm sick of these incredibly shortsighted people make giant assumptions based on a tiny bit of data.
Yeah the disparity definitely isn't as great as it used to be in Brood War and we actually have players with a chance of challenging them now. However this was all when the game was young, I think that over time the team houses and dedicated training will push Koreans further and further past the foreigner scene unless foreigner teams start mimicing their practice regimes and team house concept.
Of course it's too early to tell with only 10 months or so of tourney results, time will tell what will happen with SC2.
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Sounds like a sick day 1 !
Too bad there are only 2 VODs on ESL website  .
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really was hoping there was more sc2 content. got home from class and am very disapointed. although i did stay up to watch idra vs qxc live. oh well atleast there is a ton of gsl content i gotta watch still.
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EPT
