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This thread is for discussing the games, not crying about balance. Thanks. |
On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much.
i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are.
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On March 01 2011 03:49 xZiGGY wrote:
zerg massacre :'( ret to nasl? o.O
Its going to be really interesting in the next coming months to see what will happen with the foreigners in Korea. As more announcements are made in NA/EU of upcoming leagues and prize pools get bigger, I'm sure we are going to see more foreigners leave GSL if they continue to fail at qualifying/advancing. Korea is really becoming less attractive as time goes on for the SC2 pro foreigner scene.
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From everything I've seen, Korea have the better players. So just going to Korea and stay there will be worth it for the skill gain, if nothing else, I'd say. Unless you are already consistently winning tournaments and making money.
After all, they have committed to having 4 foreigners try out for code A every season, correct? So I'd think it would be worth it to try to get to the foreigner house and train on the most skilled ladder in the world, if nothing else.
From Ret's play, I felt he deserved to lose because he failed to engage when he chose to, he always let Terran have the advantage and chose when to engage, when to retreat, and did really nothing much except defend defend defend - quite well at that, but never really rocked the terrans world and made him uncomfortable.
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"Quite ahead" doesn't just mean ahead in econ, and that's almost the only thing Ret was ahead in for the majority of the games. Ret never really punished the Terran for moving around the map- it was the opposite most of the time.
Game 2 Killer vs Jookto is my nightmare. If you don't already have Storm it's already GG, and that should show a lot of people how good mass Mutas are against Protoss even with Stalkers/Phoenix.
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Gj Ret you played really well! I was very impressed through both games with your play. Sorry man, imo you lost to a unit, not a player.
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On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are.
What mistakes? The ones where he dropped 3 bases of Ret simultaneously? To me Ret is far too passive of a player. Yes he was ahead in bases but that's not what this game is all about. He couldn't handle being attacked at multiple places at once and that's what killed him. Zerg is supposed to have map control in zvt but instead, the terran had map control the entire time. What good is it to have 6 bases if you can't even defend them?
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On February 28 2011 20:06 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 20:04 Geo.Rion wrote:wtf.... 2 base Terran Marine+tank >>> 5 base zerg with hive so sad for Ret  Terran had 3 bases, and Ret had zero hive units.
NO, he didn't. your not thinking properly. Sure he had 3 orbitals but not 3 bases. The 3rd for Terran was late, and Ret made the main useless with his harass. He was effectively only gathering eco from 2 bases.
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I like that Artosis talks about how Jookto didn't make spine crawlers instead of complaining about the close positions. I prefer to hear professional comments rather than complaints -_- . Granted, he's a TV commentator and better behavior is expected.
Loved the high five dodge, the Ret vs MMA (SlayerS_Jjob or w/e in GSTL) game 1 was epic, and game 2 was kind of a letdown in comparison, but still one of the better games. TSL_Alive on Xel'Naga Caverns was great as well, those baneling mine scans were unbelievable. Was there a Sensor tower I didn't notice?
The Killer series wasn't as good when Killer won, but that game Jookto took on Terminus was pretty good after a slow start.
Oh and Noblesse was surprisingly strong. Not a good day for oGs, and a good day for TSL.
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On March 01 2011 04:10 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are. What mistakes? The ones where he dropped 3 bases of Ret simultaneously? To me Ret is far too passive of a player. Yes he was ahead in bases but that's not what this game is all about. He couldn't handle being attacked at multiple places at once and that's what killed him. Zerg is supposed to have map control in zvt but instead, the terran had map control the entire time. What good is it to have 6 bases if you can't even defend them?
what game were you watching? ret had map control for huge portions of the game. terran failed with simple things like turret timings v mutas. terran left his siege tanks undefended too often. terran made hellions that did nothing. terrans first marine/tank push was ill-advised to say the least. and how many drops did the terran lose that didnt do a thing? you know why ret was able to kill them so easily? he had map control which apparently you missed somehow. i dont know if u just had ur eyes closed for most of the game but yea. you mention ret's passiveness yet the terran just sat on 3 bases for the majority of the game doing nothing but random drops. yet somehow you even big that up, even though its generally accepted that defending drops as zerg is far harder than pulling them off.
terran made tons of other smaller specific mistakes like not sieging tanks on defense vs ling counter attacks but i dont have time to look thru the vod again for them to list them for you.
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On March 01 2011 04:24 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 04:10 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are. What mistakes? The ones where he dropped 3 bases of Ret simultaneously? To me Ret is far too passive of a player. Yes he was ahead in bases but that's not what this game is all about. He couldn't handle being attacked at multiple places at once and that's what killed him. Zerg is supposed to have map control in zvt but instead, the terran had map control the entire time. What good is it to have 6 bases if you can't even defend them? what game were you watching? ret had map control for huge portions of the game. terran failed with simple things like turret timings v mutas. terran left his siege tanks undefended too often. terran made hellions that did nothing. terrans first marine/tank push was ill-advised to say the least. and how many drops did the terran lose that didnt do a thing? you know why ret was able to kill them so easily? he had map control which apparently you missed somehow. i dont know if u just had ur eyes closed for most of the game but yea. you mention ret's passiveness yet the terran just sat on 3 bases for the majority of the game doing nothing but random drops. yet somehow you even big that up, even though its generally accepted that defending drops as zerg is far harder than pulling them off. terran made tons of other smaller specific mistakes like not sieging tanks on defense vs ling counter attacks but i dont have time to look thru the vod again for them to list them for you.
The drops late game were what destroyed Ret. He lost all his hatches. Don't know how you can say his drops failed.
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Hah, zerg got wiped out. Not surprised in the slightest.
I honestly just liqui-bet against every zerg, and end up with a fantastic correct rate because of it.
Sad to see Ret out, he played very well but it only takes half a mistake and you're out. Too high level of play to allow anything else.
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On March 01 2011 04:28 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 04:24 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 04:10 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are. What mistakes? The ones where he dropped 3 bases of Ret simultaneously? To me Ret is far too passive of a player. Yes he was ahead in bases but that's not what this game is all about. He couldn't handle being attacked at multiple places at once and that's what killed him. Zerg is supposed to have map control in zvt but instead, the terran had map control the entire time. What good is it to have 6 bases if you can't even defend them? what game were you watching? ret had map control for huge portions of the game. terran failed with simple things like turret timings v mutas. terran left his siege tanks undefended too often. terran made hellions that did nothing. terrans first marine/tank push was ill-advised to say the least. and how many drops did the terran lose that didnt do a thing? you know why ret was able to kill them so easily? he had map control which apparently you missed somehow. i dont know if u just had ur eyes closed for most of the game but yea. you mention ret's passiveness yet the terran just sat on 3 bases for the majority of the game doing nothing but random drops. yet somehow you even big that up, even though its generally accepted that defending drops as zerg is far harder than pulling them off. terran made tons of other smaller specific mistakes like not sieging tanks on defense vs ling counter attacks but i dont have time to look thru the vod again for them to list them for you. The drops late game were what destroyed Ret. He lost all his hatches. Don't know how you can say his drops failed.
for most of early and mid game his drops didnt do anything but yea eventually they started workin.
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Does anyone know if any terrans use landing buildings as baneling detectors. I don't play Terran but was wondering as TSL alive scanned effectively every time, whether some players hot key a lifted off building, and then just mouse the landing position over where their army is advancing. Would this work? Is this already done?
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On March 01 2011 04:37 NeonPeon wrote:
Does anyone know if any terrans use landing buildings as baneling detectors. I don't play Terran but was wondering as TSL alive scanned effectively every time, whether some players hot key a lifted off building, and then just mouse the landing position over where their army is advancing. Would this work? Is this already done?
Wow, good thought.
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On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:
Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
Idra. Oops, I broke your argument.
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On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are.
Losing one or two dropships and a tank here and there versus losing all your broodlords and ground army while getting your drones taken out. I don't see how you think they should have the same consequences.. If terran A clicked into zerg and Ret wiped his entire army out and the Terran came back to win then you might have a point. But since we don't live in lalaland you're simply just wrong.
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Yes Ret was ahead most of the game, but he did nothing with his eco lead and got out multitasked in the late game, but of course the fanbois don't want to hear that to them jjob just got lucky rather than doing anything right and zerg is just so under powered that it's completely unplayable.
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On March 01 2011 04:30 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 04:28 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 04:24 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 04:10 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:55 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:44 rysecake wrote:On March 01 2011 03:28 imbs wrote:On March 01 2011 03:25 eviltomahawk wrote:
Keep in mind that Ret had recently been very sick and had very little practice for his match, yet throughout the series he was still quite ahead at many points of the game.
What we saw last night was essentially Ret's worst play against one of the best Terrans of Code A, though even a sick and out of shape Ret can still be a formidable opponent. regardless of how much practise he had he still completely outplayed the terran in the second game for the vast majority of it. denying every drop, bad turret timing and leaving tanks undefended all contributed to a big lead for ret. he was great in that game and certainly did not deserve to lose it. Didn't deserve to lose it? He made huge mistakes towards the end that cost him the game. He definitely deserved to lose it even if he was ahead during the beginning. Honestly it's pathetic how everyone on here suck up to foreigners so much. i think its more pathetic that you do not see how many more mistakes the korean made. the terran played far worse than ret did it doesnt matter how biased towards either side you are. What mistakes? The ones where he dropped 3 bases of Ret simultaneously? To me Ret is far too passive of a player. Yes he was ahead in bases but that's not what this game is all about. He couldn't handle being attacked at multiple places at once and that's what killed him. Zerg is supposed to have map control in zvt but instead, the terran had map control the entire time. What good is it to have 6 bases if you can't even defend them? what game were you watching? ret had map control for huge portions of the game. terran failed with simple things like turret timings v mutas. terran left his siege tanks undefended too often. terran made hellions that did nothing. terrans first marine/tank push was ill-advised to say the least. and how many drops did the terran lose that didnt do a thing? you know why ret was able to kill them so easily? he had map control which apparently you missed somehow. i dont know if u just had ur eyes closed for most of the game but yea. you mention ret's passiveness yet the terran just sat on 3 bases for the majority of the game doing nothing but random drops. yet somehow you even big that up, even though its generally accepted that defending drops as zerg is far harder than pulling them off. terran made tons of other smaller specific mistakes like not sieging tanks on defense vs ling counter attacks but i dont have time to look thru the vod again for them to list them for you. The drops late game were what destroyed Ret. He lost all his hatches. Don't know how you can say his drops failed. for most of early and mid game his drops didnt do anything but yea eventually they started workin.
Well considering how agressively Ret goes about macroing an economy, those drops go a very long way in stalling any potential harass Ret can do seeing as the entirety of his defense was the muta/ling ball.
I think you're underrating how smart CchapSeungEu went about playing that game. It's not like he overcommitted in any one fight early-mid game. He poked out early to clear creep tumors and quickly pulled back. The drops set him behind, but there was nothing of great investment lost. I felt the most critical moment in the game was him sacing the marine drop to left (which pulled Ret's entire army) as a diversion to pick off the infestors. I don't have VOD access but I'm curious to know the army value at that point in time when infestors fell. BLs were also morphing at some point during the exchange.
In other words, was Ret not essentially fighting a higher supply tank/thor/medivac/marine army with just ling muta?
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On March 01 2011 04:45 Irrelevant wrote:
Yes Ret was ahead most of the game, but he did nothing with his eco lead and got out multitasked in the late game, but of course the fanbois don't want to hear that to them jjob just got lucky rather than doing anything right and zerg is just so under powered that it's completely unplayable.
Starcraft 2 should have multiple conditions for winning and one would be 'take more bases then your opponent'. Then Zerg players would be happy.
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Like Artosis said, Ret's strength is also his downfall. He drones too hard and takes expos which he can't defend. Not that hard to understand.
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EPT
