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This thread is for discussing the games, not crying about balance. Thanks. |
On March 01 2011 07:40 pokemeanddie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 02:19 Fa1nT wrote:On March 01 2011 01:18 Jayrod wrote:On February 28 2011 20:52 Essentia wrote:On February 28 2011 20:51 Begtse wrote:
LOL zerg!
Did any zerg managed to move up in code A and S?
Besides July winnning against MVP the "god know how" way.
Also ZvZ doesn't count :p
And the only way July won was by doing gimmicky baneling busts. You can't be serious... July completed outplayed MVP in game 1 and got kind of lucky in game 2, but it would have been anyones game if he didnt lift the rax. I'm not saying MVP played his best, but give credit where credit is due. Theres nothing gimicky about a baneling bust, its a viable strategy and July's baneling bust timing is different from any we've seen to date as he explains in his interview. In game 1, July lost a ton of drones to MVP's hellions, he was all-in. MVP did not have his base walled off for some reason, so he could not stop the resulting all in. Did July out play him? Yes. But not convincingly. In game 2, July sent the banelings up the ramp literally 5 seconds after MVP opened his wall to build add-ons. His attack would not have worked otherwise, as there was a bunker that he would not have had enough banelings to kill. Did July outplay mvp? Again, yes. But it was also incredibly lucky. I am not sure July will get such easy wins when he runs into MC or MKP or Jinro. Despite all that, Ret could of easily won both of the games last night, in the first game if he held those broods back after he killed off the terran 4th, and waited for ultras, in the mean time hold off at least 2 out of the 3 simultaneous drop done by MMA.
When he was killing the planetary he had already moved his BLs far enough forward that he was committed to the fight.
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On March 01 2011 07:51 DarkRise wrote:
i kinda expected Ret's defeat, I mean look at his group sangho, Jjub(GSTL) and jook (former S code).
I hope he will win but the odds are against him.
Maka has been playing really bad, one of a few terrans that I support but what happen.
I'm glad Sangho and Alive won.
Agreed. As much as I love ret, he is overrated too much by TL.
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Ret needs to learn what to do after he maxes out instead of waiting for the terran to push and bits of muta harass. He has way too many drones + queens. Over 100/200 of his supply was just for his economy. He needs to make a ton of spines all over the map to free up supply and defend against drops/pushes, this way he can make more T3 units and have more time to do so with his static defense.
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On March 01 2011 08:06 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 07:51 DarkRise wrote:
i kinda expected Ret's defeat, I mean look at his group sangho, Jjub(GSTL) and jook (former S code).
I hope he will win but the odds are against him.
Maka has been playing really bad, one of a few terrans that I support but what happen.
I'm glad Sangho and Alive won. Agreed. As much as I love ret, he is overrated too much by TL.
Or they just underrate the player that he is up against (which can be said for every time a TL member plays).
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On February 28 2011 20:09 Bommes wrote:
Oh come on, don't blame that loss on imbalance, Ret had every tool possible available to beat MMA in that game, he killed all the drops, he lost no drones, he had a maxed army, just DON'T FUCKING LET HIM SIEGE UP RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.
Seriously, that map is so big, Ret was so far ahead, just spend all your time on delaying that push until the broodlords are out and you will crush him easily. I'm 100% sure Ret knows why he lost that.
QFT. Ret looked under the weather there. Huge advantage and then he has like 100 lings and runs them into siege tanks and upgraded marines, prompting the terran to just stim up and rape his broodlords before they morphed. I think Ret should have countered earlier with all those lings to delay the push. I was pretty amazed he managed to lose that game after having such a huge advantage, happens to the best of us I guess.
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Lalush's article on worker saturation coming to fruition. Only 2-3 bases max are needed in SC2 and so far the [current] gsl has proved that. 2-3 base can go toe to toe against 4-5 base. Maybe Zerg should learn to timing push like the other 2 races? (as in, not need more than 70~ workers to support an army) it would save Zerg about 10-20 supply worth of troops (ie 20-40 more banelings)
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On March 01 2011 08:49 lorkac wrote:
Lalush's article on worker saturation coming to fruition. Only 2-3 bases max are needed in SC2 and so far the [current] gsl has proved that. 2-3 base can go toe to toe against 4-5 base. Maybe Zerg should learn to timing push like the other 2 races? (as in, not need more than 70~ workers to support an army) it would save Zerg about 10-20 supply worth of troops (ie 20-40 more banelings)
Yea theres no point banking so many minerals after you're past 2-3 bases. At that point gas becomes the important resource and you just worry about gas since you have sooo many minerals.
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anyone saying ret is overrated is clueless about the game, really.
the guy just won the finnish tournament, give him some more time
there were a shitload of jerks who said jinro was overrated and that he didn't belong to korea back then when he failed to qualify to gsl a couple of times.
think about what you are about to type, really.
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On March 01 2011 08:49 lorkac wrote:
Lalush's article on worker saturation coming to fruition. Only 2-3 bases max are needed in SC2 and so far the [current] gsl has proved that. 2-3 base can go toe to toe against 4-5 base. Maybe Zerg should learn to timing push like the other 2 races? (as in, not need more than 70~ workers to support an army) it would save Zerg about 10-20 supply worth of troops (ie 20-40 more banelings)
Timing pushes as Zerg are pretty stupid. Trying to throw all your weaker units, down a choked area vs the longer ranged units of the Terran and toss shelling your army from behind a wall, isn't an ideal way to win.
However i agree with your sentiment, just not your solution to it.
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Maybe Zerg should go back to BW days and have 5drones per queen/hatch lol
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On March 01 2011 09:12 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:49 lorkac wrote:
Lalush's article on worker saturation coming to fruition. Only 2-3 bases max are needed in SC2 and so far the [current] gsl has proved that. 2-3 base can go toe to toe against 4-5 base. Maybe Zerg should learn to timing push like the other 2 races? (as in, not need more than 70~ workers to support an army) it would save Zerg about 10-20 supply worth of troops (ie 20-40 more banelings) Timing pushes as Zerg are pretty stupid. Trying to throw all your weaker units, down a choked area vs the longer ranged units of the Terran and toss shelling your army from behind a wall, isn't an ideal way to win. However i agree with your sentiment, just not your solution to it.
I guess what I mean by timing push is forcing an engagement to occur instead of letting minerals build up because you're maxed out. Heck, fill 2-4 excess overlords with banelings and bomb some
clumped supply depots, harass with small groups of throw away units and replacing them as you lose them.
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On March 01 2011 08:28 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 20:09 Bommes wrote:
Oh come on, don't blame that loss on imbalance, Ret had every tool possible available to beat MMA in that game, he killed all the drops, he lost no drones, he had a maxed army, just DON'T FUCKING LET HIM SIEGE UP RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.
Seriously, that map is so big, Ret was so far ahead, just spend all your time on delaying that push until the broodlords are out and you will crush him easily. I'm 100% sure Ret knows why he lost that. QFT. Ret looked under the weather there. Huge advantage and then he has like 100 lings and runs them into siege tanks and upgraded marines, prompting the terran to just stim up and rape his broodlords before they morphed. I think Ret should have countered earlier with all those lings to delay the push. I was pretty amazed he managed to lose that game after having such a huge advantage, happens to the best of us I guess.
The thing is that it is incredibly difficult (as we are seeing more now especially) when Terran late game has 3/3 marines with medivac seige and slow pushes towards the Zerg. If done well enough, there are very few ways (that I've seen so far) where Zerg can break it unless it is with absolutely overwhelming numbers (but at that point it is extremely cost in-efficient). You also might suggest some other builds (i.e. more roach heavy comps to tank), but to be fair - Muta/Bling is the one of the more effective builds against Terran for a good portion of the game until it gets to late-end game.
That being said, I do believe if Ret's BLs remaining had attacked the unprotected seige tanks he would have had some more luck, also his BLs morphed a bit late on the defense I think.
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I might be reading too much into this, but the fact that so many people forget about non-Korean Asian players when talking about foreigners makes me think that many people simply consider only Caucasians to be foreigners (Haypro can be explained by how he's a member of TL and also Swedish. From the trends I've observed here, if he wasn't either of those things but was still as good as he is and had the same GSL runs, people would be forgetting about him too).
Obviously I don't mean that everyone on here thinks like that - I've seen plenty of people correct others when they leave out people like Sen/Loner in the foreigner list, but it's kind of annoying that so many people on TL still think that way. The community here is so insensitive to stuff like that, but when I crack a joke about Koreans being better than everyone else, I get temp banned.
Anyway, sorry for derailing the topic a bit but I felt it necessary to point that out.
Uh you forget that they listed Loner (chinese) and Sen (taiwenese) as foreigners?
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Ret kept his army too clustered. He had to keep 1-2 banelings at each expansion with a few zerglings to deal with the constant drops instead of clumping his entire army together. I guess he was fearing more of a frontal assault, but he definitely lost both games when he was unable to defend his 3rd or 4th expansions. 1/4 for today as well. 
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On March 01 2011 09:10 Raidern wrote:
anyone saying ret is overrated is clueless about the game, really.
the guy just won the finnish tournament, give him some more time
there were a shitload of jerks who said jinro was overrated and that he didn't belong to korea back then when he failed to qualify to gsl a couple of times.
think about what you are about to type, really.
Thats stupid. No one is saying Ret is bad. He is one of the best foriegner zergs and one of my favorite players. But when TL people say he is guranteed to get into Code S/etc, then it is overrating him. Just because Jinro did it does not necessarily mean Ret, Huk, Haypro or anybody will.
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Nobody, not even a top Korean, would be guaranteed to make code S. We've seen every player lose to a gimmicky strategy at least once. We've seen every player make a mistake that cost them the game.
There really isn't an invincible player in SC2 yet.
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I fear zerg is officially broken to the point to where u cant fix it lol.....
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 01 2011 08:06 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 07:51 DarkRise wrote:
i kinda expected Ret's defeat, I mean look at his group sangho, Jjub(GSTL) and jook (former S code).
I hope he will win but the odds are against him.
Maka has been playing really bad, one of a few terrans that I support but what happen.
I'm glad Sangho and Alive won. Agreed. As much as I love ret, he is overrated too much by TL.
How much of Ret have you actually watched? He is definately a "pro" gamer in every sense of the word..
Even CatZ said he has more skill than someone like IdrA just not enough experience (IdrA has played more) .. Plus, he just won Assembly -that has to say something..
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Ret deserves to lose he was ahead and lost his lead, if your ahead and you lose your lead you deserves to lose the way Ret did.
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On March 01 2011 10:19 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:06 1Eris1 wrote:On March 01 2011 07:51 DarkRise wrote:
i kinda expected Ret's defeat, I mean look at his group sangho, Jjub(GSTL) and jook (former S code).
I hope he will win but the odds are against him.
Maka has been playing really bad, one of a few terrans that I support but what happen.
I'm glad Sangho and Alive won. Agreed. As much as I love ret, he is overrated too much by TL. How much of Ret have you actually watched? He is definately a "pro" gamer in every sense of the word.. Even CatZ said he has more skill than someone like IdrA just not enough experience (IdrA has played more) .. Plus, he just won Assembly -that has to say something..
Can you read my posts? I do not think Ret is bad. I think he is great. But I don't think he is Code S material yet, sorry. You guys can speculate all you want, but when it comes down to it, this is the 2nd time in a row he has been knocked out in ro.32 in Code A. It doesn't even matter if they were two good players because he would have ended up playing other good players if he got deep in Code A.
And you know what, if he stays around for another month or so I don't think that will help him much. I hope I'm wrong though, I'd love to see him get deep, as I have said before, HE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLAYERS, but I just don't see it happening. Maybe you should watch more of his games, and think about why he lost, instead of just being biased because he is on TL.
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EPT
