Nonetheless, the match-up just feels unfair. It's a gut feeling. It felt as if Ret was doing a good job scouting and denying drops, teching, transitioning, droning--he was playing very well indeed. In spite of this, jjob can just tank push and roll him. Yes, ret played this specific engagement imperfectly. But is it not an indication of imbalance when zerg has to play perfect (or nearly perfect) whereas Terran has more leeway?
I can't help but feel like something needs to change. I think raising the food cap would really help zerg, for the following reason: by the time Zerg has their economy rolling, they are already nearly maxed, as is the terran. If Zerg had more room (time) to capitalize on their economic advantage, they could get away with weaker mass units.
In the end, this is just idle theory crafting. Yes, I'm a liquid/westerner/ret fan, so I'm biased. But when I'm watching, I do try to be evenhanded. As of right now, it just feels wrong. I can't pin it to one thing, and raising the supply cap is pure conjecture--it may very well benefit terran or protoss more. But something needs to change. I can only hope that 1.3 improves the situation.
nice to see talent from slayers team. sorry for ret but you will do well in nasl! ret got the best practice possible in korea and ogs house so he should make it far in nasl.
On March 01 2011 04:37 NeonPeon wrote: Does anyone know if any terrans use landing buildings as baneling detectors. I don't play Terran but was wondering as TSL alive scanned effectively every time, whether some players hot key a lifted off building, and then just mouse the landing position over where their army is advancing. Would this work? Is this already done?
On March 01 2011 04:37 NeonPeon wrote: Does anyone know if any terrans use landing buildings as baneling detectors. I don't play Terran but was wondering as TSL alive scanned effectively every time, whether some players hot key a lifted off building, and then just mouse the landing position over where their army is advancing. Would this work? Is this already done?
Wow, good thought.
Does this work? If it did...
It doesn't. It shows up as landable, then when the building tries to land it just stops over the burrowed units with no alert.
On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
On March 01 2011 04:49 ssxsilver wrote: In other words, was Ret not essentially fighting a higher supply tank/thor/medivac/marine army with just ling muta?
Pretty much, I think the few banes he did have were slaughtered by siege, but he had about ninety zerglings and some miutas. I wish we could have gotten a drone count right before he lost his army, because I wouldn't be surprised if he had in excess of eighty drones.
On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
I'm sorry to nitpick here, but I'm really tired of people disregarding non-Korean Asians when they discuss foreigners. So many times now I've seen people count out/forget about Sen/Loner when the topic of foreigners in the GSL arises. Are all Asians the same to you guys or something? >_>
On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
I'm sorry to nitpick here, but I'm really tired of people disregarding non-Korean Asians when they discuss foreigners. So many times now I've seen people count out/forget about Sen/Loner when the topic of foreigners in the GSL arises. Are all Asians the same to you guys or something? >_>
On March 01 2011 05:53 namedplayer wrote: It is time to go back to US, Ret. you are not able to beat decent Kr gamers but you can still dominate everyone in US,EU. go for NASL!
Ret has it good in Korea. He's training with the best players, participating in GSL, and taking Korean classes. Plus, Team Liquid sends its players to the different major tournaments around the world like MLG. Once the FXO tournament gets in gear in Malaysia, Ret will have more opportunities to compete. I don't think he should leave.
On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
I'm sorry to nitpick here, but I'm really tired of people disregarding non-Korean Asians when they discuss foreigners. So many times now I've seen people count out/forget about Sen/Loner when the topic of foreigners in the GSL arises. Are all Asians the same to you guys or something? >_>
To quote Chris Tucker: "All yall look alike"
I might be reading too much into this, but the fact that so many people forget about non-Korean Asian players when talking about foreigners makes me think that many people simply consider only Caucasians to be foreigners (Haypro can be explained by how he's a member of TL and also Swedish. From the trends I've observed here, if he wasn't either of those things but was still as good as he is and had the same GSL runs, people would be forgetting about him too).
Obviously I don't mean that everyone on here thinks like that - I've seen plenty of people correct others when they leave out people like Sen/Loner in the foreigner list, but it's kind of annoying that so many people on TL still think that way. The community here is so insensitive to stuff like that, but when I crack a joke about Koreans being better than everyone else, I get temp banned.
Anyway, sorry for derailing the topic a bit but I felt it necessary to point that out.
On March 01 2011 04:37 NeonPeon wrote: Does anyone know if any terrans use landing buildings as baneling detectors. I don't play Terran but was wondering as TSL alive scanned effectively every time, whether some players hot key a lifted off building, and then just mouse the landing position over where their army is advancing. Would this work? Is this already done?
Wow, good thought.
Blew my mind actually, great idea. Not sure if it's used, but I sure as hell will remember this tip.
On March 01 2011 03:42 Mephiztopheles1 wrote: Hmmmm I do feel there's two important things people are missing:
1. Three out four foreigners lost, yes. However, there are still two alive as one withdrew. What do these two have in common that the others don't? They don't play zerg. It doesn't matter that at any other skill level you can six pool your way to victory 60% of the time, at GSL/IEM/MLG level of competition you just can't. That means playing standard and at their level, it is not as much as an impossible task to play and win with zerg, is just that while your opponent gets to set up a third so easily in Xel'naga Caverns, a map with a 1-4 score thus far in GSL (Code S+A) in ZvT, Zerg struggles the time of his life just to get a half assed decent spot to pick a fight at. ZvT at this point, as July vs MVP showed is more about your opponent defeating himself and punishing that rather than winning.
2. The zerg representatives are out, and perhaps for a greater good, as now, both Jinro and HuK will get to show how strong foreigners can be when not handicapped by their race. I think we can all agree the former has already proven foreigners can compete and be really, really strong. So I strongly believe that it is not a matter of foreigners sucking ass but a matter of race. Not saying balance, it could be maps, it could be the mentality of the zerg player, don't know. But with Jinro as proof and HuK advancing, I'm not going to fall into the skill gap void just yet.
I'm sorry to nitpick here, but I'm really tired of people disregarding non-Korean Asians when they discuss foreigners. So many times now I've seen people count out/forget about Sen/Loner when the topic of foreigners in the GSL arises. Are all Asians the same to you guys or something? >_>
To quote Chris Tucker: "All yall look alike"
I might be reading too much into this, but the fact that so many people forget about non-Korean Asian players when talking about foreigners makes me think that many people simply consider only Caucasians to be foreigners (Haypro can be explained by how he's a member of TL and also Swedish. From the trends I've observed here, if he wasn't either of those things but was still as good as he is and had the same GSL runs, people would be forgetting about him too).
Obviously I don't mean that everyone on here thinks like that - I've seen plenty of people correct others when they leave out people like Sen/Loner in the foreigner list, but it's kind of annoying that so many people on TL still think that way. The community here is so insensitive to stuff like that, but when I crack a joke about Koreans being better than everyone else, I get temp banned.
Anyway, sorry for derailing the topic a bit but I felt it necessary to point that out.
Did any zerg managed to move up in code A and S? Besides July winnning against MVP the "god know how" way.
Also ZvZ doesn't count :p
And the only way July won was by doing gimmicky baneling busts.
You can't be serious... July completed outplayed MVP in game 1 and got kind of lucky in game 2, but it would have been anyones game if he didnt lift the rax. I'm not saying MVP played his best, but give credit where credit is due. Theres nothing gimicky about a baneling bust, its a viable strategy and July's baneling bust timing is different from any we've seen to date as he explains in his interview.
In game 1, July lost a ton of drones to MVP's hellions, he was all-in. MVP did not have his base walled off for some reason, so he could not stop the resulting all in. Did July out play him? Yes. But not convincingly.
In game 2, July sent the banelings up the ramp literally 5 seconds after MVP opened his wall to build add-ons. His attack would not have worked otherwise, as there was a bunker that he would not have had enough banelings to kill. Did July outplay mvp? Again, yes. But it was also incredibly lucky.
I am not sure July will get such easy wins when he runs into MC or MKP or Jinro.
Please watch game 1 between July and MVP again, July lost only 1 drone to the 7 blue flame hellion + 20ish marine timing attack from MVP, he purposely cut drone production to perform his baneling bust earlier in the game, which ironically enough didn't kill any scv from MVP either. But despite the economic setback July was still able to bank larva and resources for 11 muta right as his spire finishes which was the reason he held the timing from MVP and went on to win the first game.
I love watching Ret macro up as much as the next guy. But there is more to the game than that, he needs to be able to react to situations like Nestea did against SlayerS_BoxeR, I'm almost 100% sure Ret would of lost that game if he was in Nestea's position. Also take a page from July's aggressive style, especially against Terrans who are very capable late game. Despite all that, Ret could of easily won both of the games last night, in the first game if he held those broods back after he killed off the terran 4th, and waited for ultras, in the mean time hold off at least 2 out of the 3 simultaneous drop done by MMA. He would of been in a great position to take the game. In game 2 he was in an even better spot after he denied the hellion drop as well as picking off almost all MMA's scv in his main. At the final battle Ret made quite a few crucial mistake that cost him the game. He was maxed out with an army made up of 60-70% lings, 10-15 muta and like 5 baneling on his ramp. Also he had 3000 mineral almost 2000 gas banked up as well as broodlord tech but he had no supply to make corruptor/broods in time to hold the marine ball down. The turning point in the game was when Ret overreacted to the single dropship that was threatening his 7 o'clock by sending his entire muta/ling army over to kill off 1 dropship w/ 8 marines, which allowed MMA to march straight down and siege up right by the zerg ramp. MMA also reacted perfectly by pulling all his scv and lifting the orbital when he realized Ret was about to counter his 3rd.
It was a pleasure to watch the first half of both games, as Ret's macro was second to none, he held off the multi-pronged drops brilliantly for most of the games. I do believe that Ret was under the weather as kelly said (lets all blame Artosis and his bromance xD), and his late game decisions showed that he wasn't 100%. But I'm confident in Ret's ability to come back stronger next season and make it into code S~!
i kinda expected Ret's defeat, I mean look at his group sangho, Jjub(GSTL) and jook (former S code). I hope he will win but the odds are against him. Maka has been playing really bad, one of a few terrans that I support but what happen. I'm glad Sangho and Alive won.
EPT
