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On January 16 2011 07:11 Dionyseus wrote:
MC getting eliminated could be very bad for SC2's chances in Korea.
I wouldn't be so sure  . The studio errupted with each of Jinro's games (vs MC) when with a large number of other ones it's just another day in SC2 (not to mention excitement for Nada games, etc that day as well). SC2 is growing and with the number of all-ins in previous seasons, this is quite frankly the best one yet the all-ins we have seen aside. I tried to go to sleep last night, I really did but I was absolutely glued to the stream from midnight (EST) to 4am (following Jinro's interview) whereas with previous seasons I would stay up, watch a few games, get antsy and go to sleep.
This is the first season I have re-watched VODs more than twice. I don't think MC getting eliminated is going to hurt it at all. In fact, if the same player kept winning over and over, it would get dull, especially with most of MC's games being a face smashing push that while impressive ends the games relatively quickly. What it NEEDS is more macro based, longer games (Jinro, Idra, Nada, etc) to maintain/build interest. Like I said, you could see the excitement in the studio following both of the Jinro/MC games....it's been a while since there was that much energy in that studio .
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the guys making the brackets at gomtv are truly assholes putting the only 2 foreign players against each other AGAIN in ro8....
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On January 16 2011 09:09 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 08:16 Zarahtra wrote:On January 16 2011 05:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have a question about people talking about MC's FF decision versus Jinro in their first game versus his usage of FF against Rainbow. Now I don't actually have access to the VOD so I will try to base this on memory so correct me if I am wrong.
Rainbow had 4 bunkers all filled with marines with little to no mech back up and SCV's inbound as the push was commenced.
Jinro had 2-3 bunks with 1-2 actually containing marines, but also had siege tanks on both high and low ground giving support. Plus sent a considerable amount of SCV's for follow up repair. MC I believe chose to spend energy on Guardian Shield.
Retrospective is always 20/20, but in the heat of the moment GS wouldn't have been such a bad decision considering his was mainly zealot/sentry with a few immortals. trying to marginalize the damage the marines could do to the immortals in the few bunkers that were able to be complete and defend at least some of the tank damage to the sentry's and zealots wouldn't have been such a bad thing. Especially if the immortals (and future backup) could come back to clean up the tanks.
Spending FF to block bunker repair would have left the sentries and zealots vulnerable to raw tanking and Jinro could have chosen to repair tanks anyway.
Again, if I am WAY off in my recollection I apologize. He had 1 bunker with rines in it and 2 or 3 tanks, I believe only 1(the highground one) not being lifted. He also had enough sentries to both GS and FF, given the choice between the two, obviously FF is by far more important, since what's 33% mitigation if you can't break the front anyway. It was horrible play, followed by probably a more devastating play when jinro hellion dropped him. It was bad on semi-pro level, on MC level... He *cough* choked hard. Yes, it was a really bad play, uncharacteristic of MC we seen and loved before. But since hopefully they all played straight this is the only other explanation left to us no matter how funny it sounds. Anyways, to me both MC games looked bad, and I cannot say Jinro won because he was better but he won because MC played bad against him. I can see Idra winning against Jinro easily if random maps do not turn out to be terran favored like in their bo1 earlier.
Lol, by that standard Jinro will roll over anyone in the world once he starts playing "good"...
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I dont know why so many are saying that MC played badly, when he almost won on the 4Gate rush. Those immortals getting blocked in allowed Jinro to target fire on them and take them out. I thought Jinro was dead when the Carriers were coming, but Jinro had teched up the Thors, and was ready.
I know its a shock to many, but Jinro BEAT MC, it was not so much a matter of how MC played, but how JINRO played. Lets be happy?
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i just had the time to watch the replay and noticed whenever observer switched to mc, he was supply blocked.. never saw mc like this nervous
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On January 16 2011 09:20 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
the guys making the brackets at gomtv are truly assholes putting the only 2 foreign players against each other AGAIN in ro8....
hey those games will be epic as well ^.<
just watched the games, amazing, seems like the first time Tastosis got louder and more exited than the korean commentators <3
+ Show Spoiler +
Seems building carriers is not that good of a talent to have anymore xD, but seriously, we are used to the protoss deathball (air hovers over colossi standing on gatewayunits backed up by templars), but thors surrounded by marines backed by tanks with vikings over them just dont seem to be very approachable by air because of the long range, maybe HT would have served him better, by hitting the meatmarines and viking+ thors at once
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On January 16 2011 09:24 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:09 -Archangel- wrote:On January 16 2011 08:16 Zarahtra wrote:On January 16 2011 05:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have a question about people talking about MC's FF decision versus Jinro in their first game versus his usage of FF against Rainbow. Now I don't actually have access to the VOD so I will try to base this on memory so correct me if I am wrong.
Rainbow had 4 bunkers all filled with marines with little to no mech back up and SCV's inbound as the push was commenced.
Jinro had 2-3 bunks with 1-2 actually containing marines, but also had siege tanks on both high and low ground giving support. Plus sent a considerable amount of SCV's for follow up repair. MC I believe chose to spend energy on Guardian Shield.
Retrospective is always 20/20, but in the heat of the moment GS wouldn't have been such a bad decision considering his was mainly zealot/sentry with a few immortals. trying to marginalize the damage the marines could do to the immortals in the few bunkers that were able to be complete and defend at least some of the tank damage to the sentry's and zealots wouldn't have been such a bad thing. Especially if the immortals (and future backup) could come back to clean up the tanks.
Spending FF to block bunker repair would have left the sentries and zealots vulnerable to raw tanking and Jinro could have chosen to repair tanks anyway.
Again, if I am WAY off in my recollection I apologize. He had 1 bunker with rines in it and 2 or 3 tanks, I believe only 1(the highground one) not being lifted. He also had enough sentries to both GS and FF, given the choice between the two, obviously FF is by far more important, since what's 33% mitigation if you can't break the front anyway. It was horrible play, followed by probably a more devastating play when jinro hellion dropped him. It was bad on semi-pro level, on MC level... He *cough* choked hard. Yes, it was a really bad play, uncharacteristic of MC we seen and loved before. But since hopefully they all played straight this is the only other explanation left to us no matter how funny it sounds. Anyways, to me both MC games looked bad, and I cannot say Jinro won because he was better but he won because MC played bad against him. I can see Idra winning against Jinro easily if random maps do not turn out to be terran favored like in their bo1 earlier. Lol, by that standard Jinro will roll over anyone in the world once he starts playing "good"...
No, Jinro was playing his best. MC was not.
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On January 16 2011 09:26 PukinDog wrote:
I dont know why so many are saying that MC played badly, when he almost won on the 4Gate rush. Those immortals getting blocked in allowed Jinro to target fire on them and take them out. I thought Jinro was dead when the Carriers were coming, but Jinro had teched up the Thors, and was ready.
I know its a shock to many, but Jinro BEAT MC, it was not so much a matter of how MC played, but how JINRO played. Lets be happy?
If you are talking about Scrap Station, for some reason MC didn't have a single sentry in that attack. If he had two he could have separated the bunkers from the scvs.
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On January 16 2011 07:11 Dionyseus wrote:
MC getting eliminated could be very bad for SC2's chances in Korea.
Nup, that would only occur if foreigners began winning all the SC2 tournaments in Korea.
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I'm so fkn happy for chinro and how much he has improved. I also like the fact that he doesn't put up a front. I remember watching a video in Artosis' youtube page where TLO tells Jinro "Hey man, be more confident say you're going to win..."
In hindsight, I never expected Jinro to accomplish so much more than the always confident TLO.
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On January 16 2011 09:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:26 PukinDog wrote:
I dont know why so many are saying that MC played badly, when he almost won on the 4Gate rush. Those immortals getting blocked in allowed Jinro to target fire on them and take them out. I thought Jinro was dead when the Carriers were coming, but Jinro had teched up the Thors, and was ready.
I know its a shock to many, but Jinro BEAT MC, it was not so much a matter of how MC played, but how JINRO played. Lets be happy? If you are talking about Scrap Station, for some reason MC didn't have a single sentry in that attack. If he had two he could have separated the bunkers from the scvs.
He needed the minerals and the little gas he could gather for Zealot/Stalker army. Don't forget that the power of 4 gate is in the sick amount of damage it could do in a small amount of time, during a small window of opportunity. If MC wanted to include sentries his attack would either come too late or it wouldn't include any stalkers (which he needed). The mass sentry strategy is for when he is expanding, not 4 gating and I doubt it would work vs one-base terran (which Jinro was at the time).
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On January 16 2011 09:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:26 PukinDog wrote:
I dont know why so many are saying that MC played badly, when he almost won on the 4Gate rush. Those immortals getting blocked in allowed Jinro to target fire on them and take them out. I thought Jinro was dead when the Carriers were coming, but Jinro had teched up the Thors, and was ready.
I know its a shock to many, but Jinro BEAT MC, it was not so much a matter of how MC played, but how JINRO played. Lets be happy? If you are talking about Scrap Station, for some reason MC didn't have a single sentry in that attack. If he had two he could have separated the bunkers from the scvs.
True, but nobody though Jinro was going to hold that rush. Artosis and Tasteless were sure it was going to end badly for Jinro. Those moments leading up to the rush were so much fucking fun, I must have watched it 10 times now.
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On January 16 2011 09:38 Crabby wrote:
In hindsight, I never expected Jinro to accomplish so much more than the always confident TLO.
Don't forget that TLO's games were put on hold due to medical reasons. I hope we can see him back in the GSL soon.
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Damn, these games are just getting better than better.
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On January 16 2011 09:20 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
the guys making the brackets at gomtv are truly assholes putting the only 2 foreign players against each other AGAIN in ro8....
If you don't know where you are talking about you can better be quiet. The rules are player who ended first on group A play 2nd placed group B. First player on group B plays 2nd player group A. And the same goes on C and D. So please know the rules first, and second of all at least there is 1 foreigner in the ro4.
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On January 16 2011 09:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:26 PukinDog wrote:
I dont know why so many are saying that MC played badly, when he almost won on the 4Gate rush. Those immortals getting blocked in allowed Jinro to target fire on them and take them out. I thought Jinro was dead when the Carriers were coming, but Jinro had teched up the Thors, and was ready.
I know its a shock to many, but Jinro BEAT MC, it was not so much a matter of how MC played, but how JINRO played. Lets be happy? If you are talking about Scrap Station, for some reason MC didn't have a single sentry in that attack. If he had two he could have separated the bunkers from the scvs.
Since MC went for a very fast 4gate (not the same kind as he did with Rainbow), I don't think he felt he needed to lose DPS by getting sentries on Scrap since the ramp is huge anyway PLUS Jinro only brought about 4-5 scvs out to repair 2 bunkers and MC just did a run-by, FF would have made MC do even less damage in that situation.
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On January 16 2011 09:20 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
the guys making the brackets at gomtv are truly assholes putting the only 2 foreign players against each other AGAIN in ro8....
Hey its a good thing because were guaranteed a foreigner in the Semis right?
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On January 16 2011 08:50 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 07:45 MrCon wrote:
And about MC not FFing the bunker in game 1, it would have done more harm than good, if he FF the bunker he traps himself in a choke and he can't go up the ramp anymore, and there are tanks and marines on the cliff. Bingo.
I re-watched the controversial portion many times over and analyzed it.
Those who seriously think that MC threw the game against Jinro, please read what I have to say.
The answer is that even if MC FF the back of the bunker, Jinro would have been able to successfully defended against it with minimum loss.
MC's push was zealot heavy, with only two immortal and five sentries for range units. He had enough sentries for both GS and as many FF as he wishes.
Jinro has two tanks behind the bunker AND more importantly, TWO TANKS (and an auto-turret) ON HIGH GROUND. He also has 3 vikings. In addition, Jinro has a group of marines standing in front of the bunker, delaying MC's army just long enough for the SCVs to reach the bunker before the zealots.
MC's two immortals were force fired upon by the tanks. They were taken out fast enough that by the time the bunker is dead (should he have force fielded), both immortals would have fallen regardless of force field usage.
MC had full vision of Jinro's defense, EXCEPT FOR THE TWO TANKS ON THE HIGHGROUND, prior to engagement due to his phoenix. He had enough time to decide whether he should use force field.
Now MC had couple of options:
1. Heavy FF usage, creating a complete wall between the bunker and the rest of Jinro's defense line. It is not an option as the zealots would be blocked off. He must be able to reach both the bunker and the four tanks, not to mention he needed to go up the ramp. The number of phoenix was insufficient for taking out the tanks as they were being shot down by marines and vikings.
2. Low FF usage, alternatively, he could have created only two force field behind the bunker to deny SCV repair. HOWEVER, Jinro had a group of marines blocking the zealots from the bunker. The SCVs reached the bunker before the zealots did. The SCVs would have instead surrounded the front part of the bunker, blocking zealots from dealing damage to the Bunker.
3. Fast FF usage. This method actually does do some damage. If MC is able to react fast enough, and put two forcefields behind the bunker the moment SCV reached it, then he would have been mess up the SCV AI for long enough to pull a zealot surround around the bunker and deny SCV from being able to repair the bunker at all.
The issue with option 3 is that if he placed the force field(s) imperfectly, it could have counterproductively limited the zealot movement.
Furthermore, MC had good reason to believe that the bunker can be destroyed through focus firing alone, as the bunker nearly died despite repairing. However immortals were taken out too quickly, the bunker lived.
Hence, after reviewing his options, MC weighted the pros and cons PRIOR TO ENGAGEMENT and decided NOT to use force fields.
![[image loading]](http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5728/jinro.png)
Note that one of the immortals is about to die before the bunker is even damaged. Also that SCVs reached bunker before the zealots
Now, let's take a step back for a second and ASSUME.
Assuming MC went with option 3 and destroyed the bunker. By that point, the tanks on the highground would have taken out the two immortals regardless. At the same time, the two lifted off tanks were dropped back onto the ground as the spell worn off.
Let's take a look what MC and Jinro have respectively by the time when the bunker is theoretically destroyed:
MC: 8 to 9 zealots, at most 4 sentries, two to three phoenixes (red to yellow health and used up energy). No reinforcement according to the mini-map.
Jinro: 4 tanks (two on unreachable highground, one in yellow health), constant reinforcement, 3 vikings that can land and a control group of SCVs to block the zealots from the tanks.
With only 4 sentries for range support, MC relies on zealots to kill the tanks. However, zealots must be able to breach the SCV wall first.
With a full control group of SCV, MC would have lost every single unit in his army before he can even kill the SCVs.
That's more than 1000 mineral plus gas in exchange for some SCVs that Jinro can replace quickly with two CC and double mule.
In conclusion: MC fully scouted Jinro's entire defense prior to engagement. His decision to not use FF was not on the spot, but rather after careful deliberation. There is enough cons to outweight the pros. Even if MC's FF usage is miraculously accurate, Jinro would have been able to defend regardless and may even come out ahead.
Keep in mind that MC's poke was by no means an end of the game move, as there was NO PROXY PYLON, AND NO REINFORCEMENT COMING. It is just that because Rainbow died to a somewhat similar push, that TL all think it was an end of the game move. MC was fully prepared to retreat.
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He had a ton of senties there. Why not FF the bunkers? It was clearly a mistake and it cost him a lot of units. I don't know if he could have won the game right there, but it was a big mistake.
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Big grats to Jinro, that was awesome!
Oh, and I just registered after reading this entire marathon thread, do I get cake ?
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EPT
