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If terran can't play at an equal level without imba reaper harass winning them matches in the first 10 minutes, then that is a flaw with the terran mid-end game, not Zerg being OP.
go cry on blizzard forum I guess :/
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On October 25 2010 22:02 raidmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:57 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:55 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:53 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:50 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:47 KingRajesh wrote:On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot. Terran needs to do something NEW. The same tired strategies aren't going to work. QXC's Raven play was good enough to take a game off Idra. Put it like this: Terran right now is in Zerg's position with the Mutalisk before discovering the Magic Box. Every Terran was like "LOL THORS ARE SUPPOSED TO HARD COUNTER MUTAS, L2P"... Well, Terrans... It's your turn to L2P. Go back to the drawing board. I partly agree with you but c'mon. Magix box is not a strategy nor anything that zerg discovered using the "drawing board". I would call it a bug. I think that with increased roach range magic box should be fixed. TvZ would be at least balanced somehow. Terran players come out to whine once they get nerfed slightly. Nothing needs to be fixed, take your crying else where. Yeah, you're smart. I wrote it 2 posts ago, that I'm not a terran player. Jeezus. Doesn't matter, you're still whining like one. Whining? Where, lol? I'm discussing in case you didn't notice. I agree with most of the terran nerfs, but I think that Blizzard overnerfed them. I can see they are struggling not only in TvZ but in TvP too. I think ST should be buffed to the point they were before, at least 50 traight dmg. I
Whining? Yes that is what I said, and yes that is what you are doing in all of your posts. Terran were not over-nerfed, and just because they are "struggling" in match ups that doesn't make it imbalanced. You know who struggled pre-patch? Zerg, and they still do. Terran SHOULD be struggling in some cases rather than face rolling over every match up.
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Loner has a weak TvT compared to BoxeRs really strong TvT. I think BoxeR will take it if the battle.
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On October 25 2010 22:03 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 22:00 shynee wrote:On October 25 2010 21:57 ryanAnger wrote:On October 25 2010 21:52 shynee wrote:On October 25 2010 21:40 okaygo wrote:
lol at all these terran tears. come on, its obvious that after all the practice at defending against terran nonsense and with the recent buffs to zerg and the nerfs to terran. idra and cool are performing at the level that is expected of them. clearly superior to the terrans.
idra fighting. are you saying that Idra and Cool are much better players and not even in the same league as these guys? Yes. That is exactly the case right now. The fact of the matter is this: Idra and Cool have been playing SC2 much longer, and with more dedication than both Nada and Boxer, and at this rate, I don't think either of the "legends" will be able to catch up. And what about Maka, Loner, and other top Terran players? What if they get demolished? Idra is just that much better than them? Even though he had major problems before the patches? Watch. If there is no Terran all-in, hes going to destroy them so bad.. imba is going to stink up the whole set. because roaches have +1 range? or because dropships were slowed slightly? u have to do more than build a bunker at a potential z third to win games. i'm sorry
What? Because you cannot rax before supply. You can't ever make reapers, they are useless. All you have in hellions, 2 spines shut that down. Banshees is 1 base gimmick, 3 queens shut that down. Thats why. Tanks suck. Mutas control map. Its not just the Zerg buffs, but the Terran nerfs. Hellion cant even out micro Roaches, which was TLO's main TvZ build. And look, hes switching to Z.
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roach range increase didnt make zerg from being UP to ridiculously OP, it just helped out zerg. The supply only made it harder to cheese which most games make it to mid/late game anyway. So the zergs have a high chance of winning because they just play good, solid, and better than their opponents.
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On October 25 2010 21:50 raidmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:47 KingRajesh wrote:On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot. Terran needs to do something NEW. The same tired strategies aren't going to work. QXC's Raven play was good enough to take a game off Idra. Put it like this: Terran right now is in Zerg's position with the Mutalisk before discovering the Magic Box. Every Terran was like "LOL THORS ARE SUPPOSED TO HARD COUNTER MUTAS, L2P"... Well, Terrans... It's your turn to L2P. Go back to the drawing board. I partly agree with you but c'mon. Magix box is not a strategy nor anything that zerg discovered using the "drawing board". I would call it a bug. I think that with increased roach range magic box should be fixed. TvZ would be at least balanced somehow.
Magic box is as much as a bug as Terran tank targeting. Meaning, it isn't a bug at all.
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On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot.
You don't need to be entirely passive while fast-expanding and you can still do a relatively strong timing attack before mutas even with 1rax CC. T has mules so Z being ~15 drones ahead means that they're quite even in income assuming both have equal gas-intake, and T is more cost-effective.
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Take balance whining elsewhere. It doesn't belong here.
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On October 25 2010 22:05 joonp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 22:02 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:57 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:55 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:53 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:50 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:47 KingRajesh wrote:On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot. Terran needs to do something NEW. The same tired strategies aren't going to work. QXC's Raven play was good enough to take a game off Idra. Put it like this: Terran right now is in Zerg's position with the Mutalisk before discovering the Magic Box. Every Terran was like "LOL THORS ARE SUPPOSED TO HARD COUNTER MUTAS, L2P"... Well, Terrans... It's your turn to L2P. Go back to the drawing board. I partly agree with you but c'mon. Magix box is not a strategy nor anything that zerg discovered using the "drawing board". I would call it a bug. I think that with increased roach range magic box should be fixed. TvZ would be at least balanced somehow. Terran players come out to whine once they get nerfed slightly. Nothing needs to be fixed, take your crying else where. Yeah, you're smart. I wrote it 2 posts ago, that I'm not a terran player. Jeezus. Doesn't matter, you're still whining like one. Whining? Where, lol? I'm discussing in case you didn't notice. I agree with most of the terran nerfs, but I think that Blizzard overnerfed them. I can see they are struggling not only in TvZ but in TvP too. I think ST should be buffed to the point they were before, at least 50 traight dmg. I Whining? Yes that is what I said, and yes that is what you are doing in all of your posts. Terran were not over-nerfed, and just because they are "struggling" in match ups that doesn't make it imbalanced. You know who struggled pre-patch? Zerg, and they still do. Terran SHOULD be struggling in some cases rather than face rolling over every match up.
I was okay with some nerfs, it balanced the game. But then they buffed zerg as well? That tipped the scale to Z favor. I'm telling you right now, next patch notice the change. No more whining, I'm just waiting on the patch.
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On October 25 2010 22:02 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:53 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:50 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:47 KingRajesh wrote:On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot. Terran needs to do something NEW. The same tired strategies aren't going to work. QXC's Raven play was good enough to take a game off Idra. Put it like this: Terran right now is in Zerg's position with the Mutalisk before discovering the Magic Box. Every Terran was like "LOL THORS ARE SUPPOSED TO HARD COUNTER MUTAS, L2P"... Well, Terrans... It's your turn to L2P. Go back to the drawing board. I partly agree with you but c'mon. Magix box is not a strategy nor anything that zerg discovered using the "drawing board". I would call it a bug. I think that with increased roach range magic box should be fixed. TvZ would be at least balanced somehow. Terran players come out to whine once they get nerfed slightly. Nothing needs to be fixed, take your crying else where. This isn't the thread to bitch about balance issues, but as a zerg-only player, even I've noticed the huge nerf that Terran took in the last patch. It wasn't a slight nerf, it was smash-hammer. I think the combination of Roach range, reaper nerfs (build time, speed upgrade) and guaranteed slow barracks have done a huge amount of damage to the Terran early game. Any ONE of those changes would have balanced the match up, and in fact we saw that zerg were adapting to early reaper play pretty well after the 5-second delay placed on their BT. Personally, I think Roach range was the only required move to help balance the Z early game, and the nerfs to early terran harrass were overkill. Of course, there ARE still many timing pushes that a Terran can utilize against Z to swing any given game in their favour, as well as banshee rushes, early drops while Z is low on units (***especially anti air***), and 2-base contains. But, I see lots of Terran using their orbital commands to blast out tons of MULEs instead of regularly scanning the Z base to build up a strong push. Because of the burst nature of the Z macro mechanic, there are openings in every game where a well-timed push can cripple the Z, one drone round that should have been units, and vice versa, is all it takes to throw Z timings off and take a game, and I don't think many non-Z players realize the paper-thin margin of error that Z players have to work with before a critical mass of Mutas hit the board.
That is actually really mature approach. Think about it, joonp. I have no interest in whining, because I clearly am not a T player. I'm pretty sure that Blizzard will see that they overcommit with T nerfs from statistics and will fix it. I'm not worried about anything man  I'm just playing the game.
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On October 25 2010 21:52 shynee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:40 okaygo wrote:
lol at all these terran tears. come on, its obvious that after all the practice at defending against terran nonsense and with the recent buffs to zerg and the nerfs to terran. idra and cool are performing at the level that is expected of them. clearly superior to the terrans.
idra fighting. So lets say players of high caliber like Nada and Boxer play against Idra or Cool and get demolished. Not even a close match...are you saying that Idra and Cool are much better players and not even in the same league as these guys? Lets just keep on watching gsl. I guarantee you that if zerg players keep going muta/ling/bling against Terran, none of the games are going to be close unless Terran does an all-in right when the spire is complete (a narrow window). So far I am right about Idra easily owning ogsGon. Remember that Idra had a horrible time with Terran before. But it's not like the match up got a little easier, but a lot easier - against the worlds best Terran players.
Have you seen the Boxer/Idra games from pre-patch? He wasn't in Idra's league then and he's definitely not in Idra's league now. The recent metalopolis game between them showed, if anything, that the gap between the two has gotten even wider. Boxer didn't threaten Idra once.
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I have Idra facing oGsMC in the ro8. That's going to be tough for him. I'll be surprised if he gets knocked out by a terran though.
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On October 25 2010 21:52 shynee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:40 okaygo wrote:
lol at all these terran tears. come on, its obvious that after all the practice at defending against terran nonsense and with the recent buffs to zerg and the nerfs to terran. idra and cool are performing at the level that is expected of them. clearly superior to the terrans.
idra fighting. So lets say players of high caliber like Nada and Boxer play against Idra or Cool and get demolished. Not even a close match... I guarantee you that if zerg players keep going muta/ling/bling against Terran, none of the games are going to be close un
You're already wrong. Did you not see Cool vs Boxer at Blizzcon?
Boxer put a lot of pressure on Cool and it certainly wasn't one-sided. Cool even said afterwards he was "lucky".
So if Boxer can give the GSL champion a fantastic game after far less practice,(and lets be honest we can't be sure Boxer is going to be great at SC2 we KNOW Cool is great already), then the current state of the game is not nearly as bad as you're making out.
I do agree with some people that late-game ZvT might need some looking at. But until Terran players learn to macro/harass properly we can't be sure.
It's not a case of "just do anything" for Terran now. It's like in starcraft1 again where you have to hit specific timings and exploit small weaknesses.
And before you say "but you're a Zerg" I've actually switched to Terran recently because I like the match-up 100 times more now. It's so much more epic and scary as Terran.
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I don't get all the hype about idra... it's bigger than the hype he got in GSL 1, and I felt like the only one who actually thought idra wasn't gonna make it far... turns out I was right. Now in GSL 2, people are praising him with his macro ability in late-game... to place him as the 2nd best player next to cool is ridiculous. There are a handful of players who are better than idra and I don't mean that as an insult to foreigners, but look what happened to TLO after all the hype he got... BAM knocked out in the first round.
I applaud idra for making past ro32, but I doubt he's gonna get far in this tourney unless his brackets are going to be as easy as his past 2 rounds.
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On October 25 2010 22:02 joonp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:57 shynee wrote:On October 25 2010 21:53 joonp wrote:On October 25 2010 21:50 raidmaster wrote:On October 25 2010 21:47 KingRajesh wrote:On October 25 2010 21:44 Fallen.Sc wrote:On October 25 2010 21:32 kataa wrote:On October 25 2010 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
You can't play a macro game vs zerg without constant aggression and pinning him back. Gon needs to work on that. How many times did he try and harass with hellions only go get pwned on all sides? How many times did he try and drop only to have it spotted and shut down before it even began? Everytime we see a good Zerg player win, we get so many Terrans saying "You need to be more aggressive." but the thing that makes a good zerg player is there ability to shut down harass. Yeah , it's not really a balance topic but blizzard really need to look at zerg macro mechanics , or make some change so terran can keep up in a macro game. Because 1 rax fast expand dont work zerg will get ahead by like 15 drones. And Harass don't seem that good if the zerg is not playing greedy and make 2 Spine crawler at natural with 4 roaches to kill helions and 3 queens to prevent banshee harass and spread creep faster. Even drops gets shut down by Muta / infestor creep spread and overlord placement helps a lot. Terran needs to do something NEW. The same tired strategies aren't going to work. QXC's Raven play was good enough to take a game off Idra. Put it like this: Terran right now is in Zerg's position with the Mutalisk before discovering the Magic Box. Every Terran was like "LOL THORS ARE SUPPOSED TO HARD COUNTER MUTAS, L2P"... Well, Terrans... It's your turn to L2P. Go back to the drawing board. I partly agree with you but c'mon. Magix box is not a strategy nor anything that zerg discovered using the "drawing board". I would call it a bug. I think that with increased roach range magic box should be fixed. TvZ would be at least balanced somehow. Terran players come out to whine once they get nerfed slightly. Nothing needs to be fixed, take your crying else where. I bet if someone like Boxer said something needs to be fixed, you'd be all over that. Btw, he did say something along those lines. No I wouldn't, and I don't care. Cry more now that ZvT is a more even match up?
What an immature response. I'll message you when this becomes a known issue.
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because roaches have +1 range? or because dropships were slowed slightly?
u have to do more than build a bunker at a potential z third to win games. i'm sorry
Do not talk shit right now!
Reaper
Tank
Dropships
Bunkers
Sup->rax
Factory->reaper speed
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Roach +1
14 hatch all day long
STFU if u cant see that something is wrong.
Ive played over 40 games TvZ just last week and ive actually won like 3/40.
As long as there is an actually big fail in the Z build u are pretty much screwed.
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would someone be kind enough to sum up the Idra games. I tried reading LR, but it makes no sense
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
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Blizzard even mentioned at blizzcon that terran has issues late game (was specifically discussing PvT, but it's not like terran lategame against zerg is any better). Blizz said that they want to address the issue where terran has a much stronger early game than toss, whereas toss has a stronger late game.
Now, terran lost their early game advantage against zerg (which was ridiculous and needed to be changed), and still have the same late game problem. I'm not whining about balance, but expect some changes. I don't know Blizz is going to address the fact that terran has only 1 unit with splash, siege tanks, and mech play is generally not very viable. It feels really tricky to balance the matchups for all phases of the game with the given units in the game.
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On October 25 2010 22:11 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 21:52 shynee wrote:On October 25 2010 21:40 okaygo wrote:
lol at all these terran tears. come on, its obvious that after all the practice at defending against terran nonsense and with the recent buffs to zerg and the nerfs to terran. idra and cool are performing at the level that is expected of them. clearly superior to the terrans.
idra fighting. So lets say players of high caliber like Nada and Boxer play against Idra or Cool and get demolished. Not even a close match... I guarantee you that if zerg players keep going muta/ling/bling against Terran, none of the games are going to be close un You're already wrong. Did you not see Cool vs Boxer at Blizzcon? Boxer put a lot of pressure on Cool and it certainly wasn't one-sided. Cool even said afterwards he was "lucky". So if Boxer can give the GSL champion a fantastic game after far less practice,(and lets be honest we can't be sure Boxer is going to be great at SC2 we KNOW Cool is great already), then the current state of the game is not nearly as bad as you're making out. I do agree with some people that late-game ZvT might need some looking at. But until Terran players learn to macro/harass properly we can't be sure. It's not a case of "just do anything" for Terran now. It's like in starcraft1 again where you have to hit specific timings and exploit small weaknesses. And before you say "but you're a Zerg" I've actually switched to Terran recently because I like the match-up 100 times more now. It's so much more epic and scary as Terran.
What??? When Boxers pressure failed (btw he pressured because he had to somehow stop Cool from macroing) and the game went on to the mid game, Cool ran him over. It wasn't even close. Boxer couldn't get his 3rd base up on LT. He got demolished dude. I never said the state of the game is bad.. but Terran cannot transition into anything to keep up with Zerg macro.
Edit: OK no more balance talk. Have a good day!
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EPT
