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On October 26 2010 01:34 crms wrote:
it is pretty obvious who the best team is and that's EG. As a whole fnatic/root are likely better but if IdrA could actually participate in these events he'd pretty much carry.
you realize idra came very close to losing to kiwikaki at DC wouldn't it be for one simple thing kiwi didn't do in game 2, pretty darn close vs QXC as well, so it's quite an overstatement to say EG is clearly the best cuz of one player
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On October 25 2010 13:08 Xeris wrote:
Yea...
Root, EG, Fnatic are very obviously top 3 US teams... actually it'd be neat to have top 3 EU teams (probably... mTw, mouz, Liquid) vs top 3 US teams in some kinda showmatch league!~
Isnt liquid more of an international team? E.g. huk, nony
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On October 26 2010 02:53 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:34 crms wrote:
it is pretty obvious who the best team is and that's EG. As a whole fnatic/root are likely better but if IdrA could actually participate in these events he'd pretty much carry. you realize idra came very close to losing to kiwikaki at DC wouldn't it be for one simple thing kiwi didn't do in game 2, pretty darn close vs QXC as well, so it's quite an overstatement to say EG is clearly the best cuz of one player
You're correct. The hype makes the "skill discrepancy" look larger than it truly is to those who don't know better.
Edit: That being said, "top X" arguments are never good and it's pointless to really discuss it further. GG TT1, long time no see.
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On October 26 2010 02:53 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:34 crms wrote:
it is pretty obvious who the best team is and that's EG. As a whole fnatic/root are likely better but if IdrA could actually participate in these events he'd pretty much carry. you realize idra came very close to losing to kiwikaki at DC wouldn't it be for one simple thing kiwi didn't do in game 2, pretty darn close vs QXC as well, so it's quite an overstatement to say EG is clearly the best cuz of one player
I dunno about this. Sure IdrA was down a game sometimes, but I can't remember a single time boutside of the games that he lost where he wasn't in control of the game.
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On October 26 2010 03:29 Achilles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:53 Fayth wrote:On October 26 2010 01:34 crms wrote:
it is pretty obvious who the best team is and that's EG. As a whole fnatic/root are likely better but if IdrA could actually participate in these events he'd pretty much carry. you realize idra came very close to losing to kiwikaki at DC wouldn't it be for one simple thing kiwi didn't do in game 2, pretty darn close vs QXC as well, so it's quite an overstatement to say EG is clearly the best cuz of one player You're correct. The hype makes the "skill discrepancy" look larger than it truly is to those who don't know better. Edit: That being said, "top X" arguments are never good and it's pointless to really discuss it further. GG TT1, long time no see.
Fact of the matter is they DIDN'T beat him. With the largest target on his bakc he DIDN'T lose to qxc or kiwikaki. Idra practices against koreans and even though he might scout out players like a kiwi or huk or people who have placed top 2 in recent events, those guys aim towards idra, and he beat them all.
We all know that the best player doesn't always win every map every game, thats the nature of starcraft 2. Because one player beats Flash doesn't mean they're better than flash, it means they took one game. Same argument can go for a clan war between rS and eg or rS and fnatic. They got the wins on that given day. I'm not sure how many players from rS have placed top 2 in any mid sized to big tournaments. They can do well on ladder, but they aren't the players who people target to beat when they show up to an mlg. And they hvaen't placed top 4 or top 8 in those mlg-esque events.
My opinion is that fnatic and root are the top 2, probably root is a little ahead for now but I don't think they've faced each other enough in recent times, but in terms of tournament placings the overall root placing has been the highest.
After those two, it seems like there are a few teams that can be fit in the 3rd to 5th place teams, but I think for 80% of people, if they had to pick a team to put up against a fnatic or root in a clan war, and their options were rS, vVv, EG, inflow, whatever other teams you want to put up in that argument, they'd pick eg
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ROOT 4-3 EG - TST finals (beta)
ROOT 3-0 EG - TST Semis (beta)
ROOT 4-1 EG - Friendly cw
ROOT 4-3 EG - SGL
ROOT 4-1 Fnatic - Licki's Team Tournament Finals (beta)
ROOT 3-2 vT - Licki's Team Tournament (with huk moo etc, beta)
ROOT 6-0 vT - Friendly cw
ROOT 4-1 InfloW - SGL Pre seaswon
ROOT 4-0 Inflow - SGL
ROOT 4-2 rSGaming - SGL
ROOT 4-1 myR - SGL
I think that sums up our history vs top north american teams 11-0, www.root-gaming.com under "Clanwars" you can find most clanwar's detailed match by match and so on.
We'll be facing Fnatic soon on SGL and tbh if there's any team we're afraid of, its them, and I can't say who's better or worse, we haven't cw'd in a while. but I think ROOT / Fnatic are top 2 and EG a close third IMO.
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On October 25 2010 11:08 backtoback wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 10:58 zzaaxxsscd wrote:
TT1 is under-rated, or at least under-appreciated...very solid play
hope to see him go farther in some big name tournaments did he win the 200$ wolf cup?? who is JF?
![[image loading]](http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/1074/disappointed.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On October 26 2010 03:43 KingRajesh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:53 Fayth wrote:On October 26 2010 01:34 crms wrote:
it is pretty obvious who the best team is and that's EG. As a whole fnatic/root are likely better but if IdrA could actually participate in these events he'd pretty much carry. you realize idra came very close to losing to kiwikaki at DC wouldn't it be for one simple thing kiwi didn't do in game 2, pretty darn close vs QXC as well, so it's quite an overstatement to say EG is clearly the best cuz of one player I dunno about this. Sure IdrA was down a game sometimes, but I can't remember a single time boutside of the games that he lost where he wasn't in control of the game.
well im sorry that you don't remember... just go check replay I guess lol
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will do for future threads
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If there was a huge SC2 team league with huge cash prizes and consisted of EG ROOT and Fnatic, Fnatic would *probably* win. No team has a solid top 4 lineup with a huge 2v2 team to actually say which is the best team. Every team has good players, every team has weaker players. As far as #1 carries go, of ROOT EG and Fnatic, I find Sen to be better than IdrA who is better than KiwiKawi. Kiwi can beat Sen and IdrA sometimes, but imo Sen will win the most, then IdrA, then Kiwi.
If you judge who's the best team by previous cw's ROOT wins, if you judge by #1 player from each team, Fnatic wins, if you judge by most popular crowd favorite, EG wins.
But if you judge by the results of REAL TOP LEVEL (best 4 on each team vs best 4) CLANWARS, then you can't judge cause there hasn't been a 'real' clanwar yet.
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Shinta, except I just listed a lot of "real" clanwars lol =) and we don't have -a- carry, sure KiWi's amazing but if you look not just at past results from clanwars but also placings, of big events: we had 4 in the top 8 of MLG Raileigh, 5 in the top 8 of IEM NY and 3 in the top 8 of MLG DC, ROOT isn't just '1' player
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We've never beat root in a cw (only played once tho), and we've never lost to eg. Also root players on the whole are more accomplished in major events so I'd say that they are the best team in NA for now . Obviously this can change in time though ...
Teams like rS and such are good, however their players have never won any of those prize weekly events nor have attended/placed at any LAN ... And again, winning 1 cw vs a team is hardly enough of a sample size to say you can compete/are on the same level.
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moneys on Fnatic, since EG is pretty much useless without idra
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
SICK READ BRA
You seem smart, can I real ID add you on bnet2 so I can one day help make EG not useless?
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Why the hell can't you say EG is the best team because they have (not really arguable) the best non-korean player, who would quite literally carry EG in all these friendly clan wars? Sports teams in other arenas have been carried by 1 or 2 stars, don't see why starcraft is any different.
If you want to rank purely on accomplishments, Root is far and away #1. I don't really care to do that as EG hasn't played with its full roster really.. ever. When looking at the strength of each team IdrA is clearly the best of the bunch. With IdrA leading and EG's other players supporting I find it hard to believe they wouldn't win the majority of these scrims, i'm not sure how anyone could deny that.
This reminds of an MMA argument that was had 6-7 months ago back when everyone was crying over the LW rankings of BJ Penn and Shinya Aoki. Some people argue only accomplishments matter and Aoki should be #1 as in the past year he'd fought and defeated better fighters. While some argued BJ should still be ranked ahead because in a match up BJ would be a heavy favorite to win. I tend to agree with the BJ ranking. Whocares if you're #1 on paper if everyone thinks you would lose if you fought someone else.
for the tl:dr
i find it hard to believe with EG's full roster (IdrA) EG would lose the majority of clanwars against any NA team ie. 100 scrims vs root, 100 scrims vs fnatic, eg loses more than 50 vs each team. Therefore I believe EG Is the best team.
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On October 26 2010 05:25 Shinta) wrote:
If there was a huge SC2 team league with huge cash prizes and consisted of EG ROOT and Fnatic, Fnatic would *probably* win. No team has a solid top 4 lineup with a huge 2v2 team to actually say which is the best team. Every team has good players, every team has weaker players. As far as #1 carries go, of ROOT EG and Fnatic, I find Sen to be better than IdrA who is better than KiwiKawi. Kiwi can beat Sen and IdrA sometimes, but imo Sen will win the most, then IdrA, then Kiwi.
If you judge who's the best team by previous cw's ROOT wins, if you judge by #1 player from each team, Fnatic wins, if you judge by most popular crowd favorite, EG wins.
But if you judge by the results of REAL TOP LEVEL (best 4 on each team vs best 4) CLANWARS, then you can't judge cause there hasn't been a 'real' clanwar yet.
If 2v2's were involved I'd actually think EG would stand an even better chance. Strifecro and Axslav played 2v2 at the highest level in WC3 and are at the top of SC2's 2v2 without much debate. Not to say that EG would win out of those three teams but I would actually think fnatic would be just middle of the road since 2v2's dont really suit anybody but strife/ax.
On October 26 2010 06:59 crms wrote:
Why the hell can't you say EG is the best team because they have (not really arguable) the best non-korean player, who would quite literally carry EG in all these friendly clan wars? Sports teams in other arenas have been carried by 1 or 2 stars, don't see why starcraft is any different.
If you want to rank purely on accomplishments, Root is far and away #1. I don't really care to do that as EG hasn't played with its full roster really.. ever. When looking at the strength of each team IdrA is clearly the best of the bunch. With IdrA leading and EG's other players supporting I find it hard to believe they wouldn't win the majority of these scrims, i'm not sure how anyone could deny that.
This reminds of an MMA argument that was had 6-7 months ago back when everyone was crying over the LW rankings of BJ Penn and Shinya Aoki. Some people argue only accomplishments matter and Aoki should be #1 as in the past year he'd fought and defeated better fighters. While some argued BJ should still be ranked ahead because in a match up BJ would be a heavy favorite to win. I tend to agree with the BJ ranking. Whocares if you're #1 on paper if everyone thinks you would lose if you fought someone else.
for the tl:dr
i find it hard to believe with EG's full roster (IdrA) EG would lose the majority of clanwars against any NA team ie. 100 scrims vs root, 100 scrims vs fnatic, eg loses more than 50 vs each team. Therefore I believe EG Is the best team.
The argument that if they played 100 clan wars wh owould be on top is also a unique one, especially when you're saying EG is without idra, because the same argument can be made for fnatic that they don't have Sen in theirs.
If Sen and Idra played on their respective teams clan wars I think it would come down to format of the clan war. If its winners league style then probably EG and fnatic would have gotten a big boost to catch up if not maybe pass Root. But if its 4 1v1's and a 2v2' then I would say EG has a big big boost with Idra and the top 2v2 team. If its straight 5 1v1's then you would imagine root, with the depth that they have in all their individual accomplishments in EVERY major event, would have the advantage.
No other team, rS, vvv, inflow, etc. can really say they have those sort of trump cards in a series of clan wars. All they have is the lack of name recognition so playstyles aren't always known before hand from all the players save for one or two that have recognizable names.
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Excellent points ZSLasher, format would be huge. In a 5 players all have to 1v1, EG would clearly not be the best as IdrA would likely win his match up, but as we've seen before root/fnatic's core members should win the majority of the other match ups. In a scenario where winner stays (like this clanwar that just happened), I see IdrA being able to carry enough to win a majority of clan wars vs either team.
Another great point is It's not fair for me to include IdrA but not Sen. I actually forgot Sen is a member of team fnatic. To include IdrA i'd have to include Sen and in that scenario it's really too difficult for me to judge who would win, although I'd have to give an edge to Fnatic. I feel with Sen in either format, 5 1v1's or winner stays, fnatic would have the edge with their superstar plus more solid core.
Really good post ZSlasher, this is what I enjoy, people bringing up more information to base opinions. I will change my mind about damn near anything if enough empirical data or sound reasoning is available to support the notion, well played.
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Are there replays to this CW?
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fenix should have played 
anyone knows the score?
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EPT
