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+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2010 07:53 SureYouCan wrote:
Good game, gotta love these showmatches.
It's not surprising Dimaga lost. Nearly everything that makes zerg a unique race makes them weaker than the other races. Dimaga had banelings, zerglings and roaches at his disposal. He built bigger armies sooner than Kiwi in two games. In one of them Kiwi lost 800-1000 minerals worth of zealots to zerglings. That should have been GG right there and would have been if situations were reversed and it was Dimaga who lost his entire army. Unfortunately protoss get sentries and the ability to wall off their ramp so Dimaga is forced to use 30 lings to sit at a xelnaga watch tower rather than attack a ramp with 1 sentry and 1 zealot in a choke.
In the lost temple game it was the same thing, Dimaga produces a huge army of zerglings and banelings. In the reverse situation if Protoss was on zergs doorstep with an army the same size as Dimagas was Zerg would get crushed. Instead Kiwi casually throws down 10 forcefields blocking and trapping the Zerg units for 15 seconds and we all applaud and call it great FF micro!!!
We got to see Stalkers destroy Hydralisks, bad positioning or not on Dimagas part. What it really comes down to IMO is that whatever option zerg has to counter a protoss or terran, if the protoss/terran get to upgrade their unit with a unique ability like stim/blink/concussive shells and zerg chooses +armor on ultralisks... or +1 range on hydralisks... or +20% attack speed on lings that math shows to equal out to the same dps increase as +1 melee attack, or two T2 speed upgrades to allow banelings/roaches to actually attack an enemy army, then Zerg will always be in the situation of having their counter get countered.
Less options for Zerg is always going to lead to the same commentary during these games. "Look at what that terran/protoss player just did to make his army roflstomp zergs!" While for Zerg it will always be "He really needed to spread creep everywhere to even stand a chance, and triple expand, and OMG PRO TRANSFUSION but omg the voidray is fully charged now!/the banshee is cloaked!!!!!!"
I'll bite I guess.
1)On your first point the reason Kiwikaki lost those 800-1000 minerals was because he cut drones and built only zerglings after overkilling the zealots with zerglings he's left with zerglings that could have potentially been drones and been more beneficial. I will agree its hard to determine how many units you need vs workers but i think thats where zerg players will improve and where blizzard will be lending zerg a hand in patches. I disagree that he was "Forced" to use 30 lings to sit at the xel naga he made the choice to make those lings in the first place.
2)On your second point I'll have to say Dimaga was scouted and completely countered, baneling bust already isnt that effective in those positions but once kiwikaki scouted the strategy and built the great wall of china(+forcefields) infront of his natural there was no way dimaga was going to win, im sure he even knew he was screwed after a certain point and just tried for the hell of it to move on to the next game. If protoss cant counter baneling busts with gateways/cannons/forcefields whats to stop zerg from baneling busting every game and winning? On the whole FF Micro thing casters will call any use of a signature spell "Great" its just to add excitement to the cast, notice how all storms,fungals,emps are also "great"? dont get so hung up on it.
3)In the Xel naga game i think dimaga had horrid positioning(due to the map) as has been said by others and he probably should have just sacced that expo and built up with his 3rd and been fine. But I will agree with you that roaches may need to have their speed at t1 or have the research faster, and hydras probably need to move a bit faster off creep as they seem super slow unless you can get the creep going.
My Two cents
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I don't think the results of this showmatch have anything to do with balance issues, KiWiKaKi is just a fantastic player.
im a Zerg player and I think ZvP is very well balanced, I actually fear for Protoss once they add +5 build time on zealots because it'll make it even easier for zerg to FE and power macro, though ultras won't be as good lategame, I think early game will make it easier to transition for zerg, if anything, the mu will favor zerg I think, sure zvt is really hard, but there is no real reason to complain about zvp i don't think.
Before the match I trained ZvP with KiWiKaKi and baneling busted him, nydus canaled him etc etc, cause its expected to some extend to come from dmytro, from these games, i hope it helped him prepare to some extend, where dimaga perhaps did not, as I talked to him before the match as well.
During the conversation:
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me: dmytro! gogo lose, KiWi win! (he knows we're teammates)
Dimaga: XD haha, he's very good
me: indeed
Dimaga: and I havent practiced much zvp lately
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Congrats to Kiwi
What was the final score? don't feel like going through all the reps.
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if theres any problem with zvp its probably that zerg forgot about protoss for a long time and solely focused on how to beat terran
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ZvP is pretty balanced to be honest. KiWiKaKi played beautifully and deserved the 4-3 win. Dimaga played spectacularly as well. People need to stop with the balance discussion and just enjoy the games.
And thanks ROOT for the replays <3
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If anyones blaming balance on the last game of pvz it was Dimaga's mistake for engaging that army at the choke. He should have pulled back but didn't and that cost him the game.
Balance wise shouldn't even be brought up its fine for the most part.
and catz I disagree with the up and coming patch that now zvp is going to favor zerg heavily disagree. If you have seen the 2 gate into fast cyber core - expand build the toss can get his expansion going at the same time sometimes even before zerg can start theres.
Regardless was a fun series to watch and was pretty hilarious to see a 6 pool win like against machine vs huk :D.
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On September 09 2010 08:39 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 08:29 Chocobo wrote:On September 09 2010 08:10 mOnion wrote:
this is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to begin Why call it wrong and then provide absolutely no explanation? Looks pretty accurate to me. Zerg gets to upgrade inferior units to the quality of standard units, T and P get to upgrade standard units into superior ones. Because we don't need to turn every thread on these forums into a whine about zerg being the most underpowered and boring race of the three. It gets tiring having every thread involving a zerg in some fashion devolve into a bunch of people whining about the race. There is a better place for that.
Actually, I don't think it's inappropriate for a balance discussion to take place in a thread about a high profile zerg vs protoss match-up. Especially when there are multiple situations where Dimaga would have won if his opponent had the weaknesses of zerg (an unblocked ramp), or arguably should have won if his opponent's units weren't so capable. It doesn't seem right that a multiple-expansion zerg techs up and gets upgraded tier 2 units... and loses to a gateway-only protoss. And it wasn't even that close, there were so many stalkers left alive.
I used to think that ZvP was well balanced but now I'm not so sure. If you're really good with the blink micro it's such a huge advantage. I'd love to see how that would have played out with infestors involved though, to see how much of a difference it would make. But that's one more thing zerg is required to tech to just to beat a tier 1 unit, and it would mean fewer hydras... and I'm not certain it would have changed the outcome.
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Why does it seem like in every single game where a zergs ground army gets roflstomped by a protoss/terran army that its always the zerg who made the "mistake"?
Maybe its because you can't stim/blink Hydralisks into your enemy? Who knows. Maybe because you can't make your ultralisks move up a cliff to get out of the way of your other units? Who knows. Maybe because your units operate between 5 and 3 range with no utility functions at all? Of course for 150/150 you can make that 6 to 3 range. Maybe its because zerg cant create impassable terrain to prevent your opponents ranged army from forming a concave? Who knows. Maybe this mythical micro you envision pro-zergs having doesn't actually exist and when 20 stalkers are bearing down on your natural and you don't have the option to retreat to a forcefielded/blocked off ramp, maybe just maybe attacking with your hydralisks is the best option. Who knows.
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the problem is that rare are ppl using the real strengh of zerg, his mobility. this map is so good for a zerg player who know how to be mobile. A toss should not being able to attack w/o getting a pay back.
If the zerg alway lose because he make a mistake that only mean that the game isnt THAT imbalance, this is the same thing in other sport you, in a profetional soccer game, the team who won isnt because they are much more talented its because the losing tema make alot of mistake and it cost the game
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On September 09 2010 09:37 KhAlleB wrote:
the problem is that rare are ppl using the real strengh of zerg, his mobility. this map is so good for a zerg player who know how to be mobile. A toss should not being able to attack w/o getting a pay back.
If the zerg alway lose because he make a mistake that only mean that the game isnt THAT imbalance, this is the same thing in other sport you, in a profetional soccer game, the team who won isnt because they are much more talented its because the losing tema make alot of mistake and it cost the game
Zerg isn't mobile.
Every ground unit Zerg has except for speedlings are slow as shit unless you've covered the entire map in creep, which is extremely time consuming and can easily be undone by the opposing player.
And even if Zerg IS mobile, what can you do with it? Zerg has no form of effective early aggression, apart from banelling busts, which is a very all-in'ish strat that can be easily countered by proper building placement.
Also, Zerg players losing just because they make more mistakes doesn't necessarily mean the game is balanced, since there are so many more opportunities to make mistakes with Zerg and those mistakes are so much more unforgiving (forget to MULE? np, just drop 2. Forget to spawn larva? Unlucky, you're fucked!).
It's sad watching Zerg become almost a non-entity in competitive play.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
dimaga loses a close series 3-4 from a TOP level Protoss who micro'd his fucking heart out with great positioning and people cry imbalance?
There was no game where it was like "roflfl dimaga can't do anything" he made REAL mistakes and kiwi played brilliantly.
I don't know why this has degraded into a big debate about how zerg is useless  I think in a rematch dimaga seals the deal... that last game was his to give away and he did tbh.
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Are the videos already working? cause i´m getting a playback error. =(
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On September 09 2010 09:30 SureYouCan wrote:
Why does it seem like in every single game where a zergs ground army gets roflstomped by a protoss/terran army that its always the zerg who made the "mistake"?
Maybe its because you can't stim/blink Hydralisks into your enemy? Who knows. Maybe because you can't make your ultralisks move up a cliff to get out of the way of your other units? Who knows. Maybe because your units operate between 5 and 3 range with no utility functions at all? Of course for 150/150 you can make that 6 to 3 range. Maybe its because zerg cant create impassable terrain to prevent your opponents ranged army from forming a concave? Who knows. Maybe this mythical micro you envision pro-zergs having doesn't actually exist and when 20 stalkers are bearing down on your natural and you don't have the option to retreat to a forcefielded/blocked off ramp, maybe just maybe attacking with your hydralisks is the best option. Who knows.
Maybe Kiwikaki > Dimaga
who knows
seriously dude
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PvZ is fine, and I hate when my fellow zergs cry about it. Accept the fact that kiwikaki outplayed him and move along.
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zerg complains about everything hahaha :D
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no fayth that cannot be ! you are crazy man
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On September 09 2010 09:30 SureYouCan wrote:
Why does it seem like in every single game where a zergs ground army gets roflstomped by a protoss/terran army that its always the zerg who made the "mistake"?
Maybe its because you can't stim/blink Hydralisks into your enemy? Who knows. Maybe because you can't make your ultralisks move up a cliff to get out of the way of your other units? Who knows. Maybe because your units operate between 5 and 3 range with no utility functions at all? Of course for 150/150 you can make that 6 to 3 range. Maybe its because zerg cant create impassable terrain to prevent your opponents ranged army from forming a concave? Who knows. Maybe this mythical micro you envision pro-zergs having doesn't actually exist and when 20 stalkers are bearing down on your natural and you don't have the option to retreat to a forcefielded/blocked off ramp, maybe just maybe attacking with your hydralisks is the best option. Who knows.
Because Dimaga engaged in a bad spot and with 2 FF's had half his army far away from the stalkers. Along with KiWi's excellent blink micro meant KiWi won. Dimaga engaged in a bad spot. It wasn't some PvZ imbalance. It was a bad place for a battle for a Zerg.
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On September 09 2010 09:24 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 08:39 Rokk wrote:On September 09 2010 08:29 Chocobo wrote:On September 09 2010 08:10 mOnion wrote:
this is so wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to begin Why call it wrong and then provide absolutely no explanation? Looks pretty accurate to me. Zerg gets to upgrade inferior units to the quality of standard units, T and P get to upgrade standard units into superior ones. Because we don't need to turn every thread on these forums into a whine about zerg being the most underpowered and boring race of the three. It gets tiring having every thread involving a zerg in some fashion devolve into a bunch of people whining about the race. There is a better place for that. Actually, I don't think it's inappropriate for a balance discussion to take place in a thread about a high profile zerg vs protoss match-up. Especially when there are multiple situations where Dimaga would have won if his opponent had the weaknesses of zerg (an unblocked ramp), or arguably should have won if his opponent's units weren't so capable. It doesn't seem right that a multiple-expansion zerg techs up and gets upgraded tier 2 units... and loses to a gateway-only protoss. And it wasn't even that close, there were so many stalkers left alive. I used to think that ZvP was well balanced but now I'm not so sure. If you're really good with the blink micro it's such a huge advantage. I'd love to see how that would have played out with infestors involved though, to see how much of a difference it would make. But that's one more thing zerg is required to tech to just to beat a tier 1 unit, and it would mean fewer hydras... and I'm not certain it would have changed the outcome.
It's inappropriate because people point to one encounter in one game that they saw one time and scream imbalance. Go have another look at that last encounter in game 7. It's 18 roaches and 21 hydra against 34 stalkers and 3 sentries. Upgrades are 1/0 for Dimaga (2/0 finishes right as the battle ends) and 2/1 for Kiwikaki. The battle begins and all but around 10 stalkers are firing. On the other hand, due to FFs, about 19 units for Dimaga are not shooting. Those 19 units very slowly get in range of being able to shoot as the battle continues while Kiwikaki keeps about the same number of stalkers firing (stalkers keep blinking out of range for a moment as they retreat). Kiwikaki is also keeping his numbers relatively constant while Dimaga continuously loses units.
Is there imbalance? Maybe. I'm not saying there isn't. But that doesn't make every thread the place to discuss it. Why can't this be viewed as a stellar play by Kiwikaki instead of zerg just being underpowered?
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