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On August 17 2010 00:07 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:00 yejin wrote:On August 16 2010 23:10 bmml wrote:
I can't believe so many people watched BigT's stream yesterday, hes a self righteous idiot with an ego bigger than even idra's and to top it all off hes probably the worse caster I've ever heard (not to mention the constant fucking whining).
Also shit like this wouldn't happen if these were REAL tourneys not these terribly organised "oh yeah X game is going on get a caster in there who cares what the players need" If you are going to have a tournament casted you should at least make an effort to set out which games are to be cast and when they will be casted beforehand.
For all the talk of "professionalism" in this thread surely you can see these huge online signup tournaments are a far cry from anything resembling a "professional" tourney. Agreed. SC2 is looking like the beginning of WC3 right now. Young kids, no structure, very messy. You're one to talk. No matter if every accusation was warranted I can't say this was something structured, mature, organized nor did it look like it was written by an adult. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144389
It doesn't need to be cause whether BigT is a douche or not isn't a very serious issue and doesn't really warrant a well thought out essay. But the future of professional Starcraft II is and he has some very good points. I thought that these type of tournaments would only occur in Beta and when the actual game comes out, things would be a lot more organized. But it seems that everyone is trying to cash in on the scene by any means necessary instead of trying to form a proper platform and structure from which Starcraft II as a sport can grow from. Things are way too fragmented right now.
Players are going to Korea to become better. Why can't tournament organizers and casters do the same? It's better to learn from an established model than just "going with the flow".
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On August 17 2010 00:07 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:00 yejin wrote:On August 16 2010 23:10 bmml wrote:
I can't believe so many people watched BigT's stream yesterday, hes a self righteous idiot with an ego bigger than even idra's and to top it all off hes probably the worse caster I've ever heard (not to mention the constant fucking whining).
Also shit like this wouldn't happen if these were REAL tourneys not these terribly organised "oh yeah X game is going on get a caster in there who cares what the players need" If you are going to have a tournament casted you should at least make an effort to set out which games are to be cast and when they will be casted beforehand.
For all the talk of "professionalism" in this thread surely you can see these huge online signup tournaments are a far cry from anything resembling a "professional" tourney. Agreed. SC2 is looking like the beginning of WC3 right now. Young kids, no structure, very messy. You're one to talk. No matter if every accusation was warranted I can't say this was something structured, mature, organized nor did it look like it was written by an adult. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144389
Well, French men and English class, you know what they say, but that's not the point here, is it ?
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IdrA won all his games and logged off. Disqualifying him after is the most bad manner thing being done here. He completed all his responsibilities (playing games), it is the administrators who need to clean up the mess.
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On August 17 2010 00:07 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 22:09 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:06 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 22:05 robertdinh wrote:
He wasn't banned for no reason, i think this is the part you don't understand. He has been giving esl admins attitude for weeks and weeks all culminating into an attempted punishment yesterday for his constantly poor behavior. And the ESL has not paid him for a tournament 7 months ago. Ok but whether they pay him or not, if he is playing in their tourney based on their rules he should conduct himself in a professional manner. This is a common problem in this day and age, youth don't understand the concept of accountability. You are responsible for your own actions, whatever your reasoning is for your actions, you still are responsible for them. I'd like to see how professional you were if your company stopped paying you for working. You seem to be under the delusion that accountability only works one way. This is a common problem in this day and age, the people in charge get away with unethical and immoral behavior and the people doing the work get screwed.
No one said esl should get away with not paying players, i've openly ragged on them for it before. Doesn't mean idra should act the way he does.
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well in all honesty people gave much less shit to Androide, so it's clear all Idra needs it punch someone out at Gamescon.
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Ok, so I just woke up and read the first 10 pages or so after the IdrA "barrage" (btw, couldn't you use a different word than barrage? Like, maybe... 'ban'?) and it was all pretty ridiculous, but now I see that they've modified their position to 3 penalty points instead of 4. Hopefully by now they realize what the community was outraged for and will be more careful in the future.
The new topic that really should be handled better has been pointed out both directly by HuK and indirectly by IdrA, and that is the current situation of caster overflow. Big tournaments like this really need to be handled with more care, and both of these players have their rights to play their games to the best of their ability without worrying about being impeded by lag. They PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. It's unfair to them to say "Well, it doesn't matter if it lags every now and then, we need as many people to view the games as possible to please the SPONSORS." Well, guess what?! IdrA and HuK have both pointed out that REPLAYS ARE AVAILABLE. Remember Day[9]'s King of the Beta tournament? Major sponsor, check. Thousands upon thousands of viewers, check. Unnecessary lag caused by too many observers? Nowhere to be found.
People arguing that IdrA's Korean connection being the 'bottleneck' are certainly correct when dealing with normal networks, but that doesn't seem to hold true for Battle.net. After being a spec/caster for many, many North American server games, I can tell you that games will lag an inordinate amount once spectators go over three or four. It's why it's iCCup TV's policy to have NO EXCESS OBSERVERS in their games. We used to allow other iCCup TV staff in the games for a more 'front row seat' experience, but after even more lag from just a handful of specs, we now have it as casters only. Even casters only becomes a problem when you have 4, 5, 6 different streamers all wanting a piece of the same pie. HuK and IdrA are both right to want as few people obsing as possible. They are also both right that tournament organizers SHOULD AT LEAST declare who the official streamers are ahead of time to prevent unwanted issues from arriving.
The only situation I can see needing more than one or two streamers is for huge, global, online-only tournaments that would require both an English stream and some other language. For example, White-Ra vs. Dimaga I could see letting in a Russian language streamer, since both players are Ukrainian and they have a huge Russian-speaking fanbase, but now I'm getting off topic.
TL;DR - Pick your casters beforehand carefully for big tournaments, or just make replays available for whoever wants to cast them later on. The responsibility of entertaining the fans is not on the players, only the responsibility of trying to win the tournament they are participating in.
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Idra and his larger-than-live behavior is what is going to save eSports in the West.
Look at any other sport - there are plenty of polarizing figures, and whether or not it's a fair representation of the sport, it's what people love. When people tune in for the trash talk, the hype, the drama, it builds the legitimacy of an activity as something people can be passionate about and turns a competition into a sporting event.
Muhammad Ali did nothing but trash talk. Ochocinco's a huge clown, but nobody denies that without him, ESPN would be a whole lot more boring. Three years ago when Firebathero beat savior and then performed that ceremony, TL absolutely EXPLODED with FBH hate, but nobody would have ever considered banning him from Starcraft.
There's a huge problem among a lot of people on the internet in detangling how they feel about someone and how they feel that that person should be treated, and that's what's immature.
I have friends who have never tuned in for a Starcraft game in their life, even when I'd try and show them a few games exhibiting very astounding tactical play - they're simply not too interested. The fact is, you'll only get the most die-hard aficionados to watch if all you do is have perfectly GM players and a sterile, boring game between faceless and near-anonymous internet handles that just don't mean anything to casual observers.
But in recent days, it's my friends suddenly telling me about the latest Idra game, how angry he was at the cheesing terran, or how he totally curbstomped somebody who was playing like a total turtling coward and ended called them a noobie at the end.
And now they're hooked. The Zerg player loves Idra and thinks he's a god among men - the last hope of the swarm, his flawless macro something to aspire to, and he tunes in for every match of his he can. Two of them play Protoss and Terran respectively, and through watching some of Idra's games, they've identified players that they like, and have started watching and appreciating their games as well. Pretty soon, they're going to be following every round of tournaments, the different handles of players no longer meaningless, but tied to something in their mind, given personality through their style of play.
It's just the first push to get them through the door, the gateway drug.
And that's why Idra will save eSports.
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On August 17 2010 00:34 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 00:07 Grond wrote:On August 16 2010 22:09 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:06 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 22:05 robertdinh wrote:
He wasn't banned for no reason, i think this is the part you don't understand. He has been giving esl admins attitude for weeks and weeks all culminating into an attempted punishment yesterday for his constantly poor behavior. And the ESL has not paid him for a tournament 7 months ago. Ok but whether they pay him or not, if he is playing in their tourney based on their rules he should conduct himself in a professional manner. This is a common problem in this day and age, youth don't understand the concept of accountability. You are responsible for your own actions, whatever your reasoning is for your actions, you still are responsible for them. I'd like to see how professional you were if your company stopped paying you for working. You seem to be under the delusion that accountability only works one way. This is a common problem in this day and age, the people in charge get away with unethical and immoral behavior and the people doing the work get screwed. No one said esl should get away with not paying players, i've openly ragged on them for it before. Doesn't mean idra should act the way he does.
If you have a problem with Idra personally that is your prerogative, but it's not relevant to the ESL / BigT situation. Idra has acted the most professionally of the 3.
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On August 16 2010 14:50 Chill wrote:
BiggerESL would never do this. Take some time to reflect on what's right and then announce your decision.
This is hands down the best post in this thread.
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Here's my take on this situation...
Professionalism is of the utmost importance in all sports, and esports are no exception. However, professionalism from the league is far more important than professionalism from the players when both parties are being unprofessional.
In the case of the first two penalty points, if I'm understanding this correctly, IdrA received the points because he didn't allow a league-affiliated caster to cast one of his games. It seems to me like there was a bit of unprofessional behavior from both sides, but ultimately IdrA deserved the two penalty points for this.
Now here is where things get a bit ridiculous:
IdrA played through a couple rounds of matches, and afterward was informed that he actually shouldn't have played the last few matches due to an unresolved conflict in a previous round (somebody posted a win when they shouldn't have). This was, understandably, very frustrating for IdrA so he lashed out at the league for allowing such a big mistake to happen. Was it unprofessional for IdrA to do this? Yes. Going back to my original statement that professionalism from the league is more important than from the players, and allowing such a colossal screw up is very unprofessional, IdrA's rage in that moment should go without consequence, especially since he was cooperative and agreed to re-play the games despite to screw up.
Now, I don't know exactly who spoke to IdrA, exactly how IdrA was informed of the mistake, or the true extent of IdrA's response, but it seems to me like IdrA simply reacted negatively in the heat of the moment after discovering that he got screwed over by a mistake made by the league. If IdrA was informed of the mistake in a professional manner, and not only raged at that moment, but kept going to the point where he was no longer reacting to the mistake, but simply throwing a temper tantrum like a 2 year old, then I think the league was justified in awarding 2 more penalty points. However, details of IdrA going beyond reactionary anger are thus far non-existent, and that is unacceptable from the league in a decision of this caliber.
This whole situation reeks of poor organization and unprofessional behavior from the league. Combine that with a notoriously short-tempered player, which obviously resulted in (justified) rage.
Unless the league can provide specific evidence that they handled the mistake with professionalism, and that IdrA clearly over-reacted, I think it's bogus to award him with any further penalty points for unprofessional behavior that pertain specifically to this situation.
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On August 16 2010 23:46 kajeus wrote:
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days.
Lol insecure much?
You felt the need to justify your life in 1 sentence, congratulations..... but you still watch Starcraft. So yeah you'd be considered a "nerd" by many and expect you don't watch HDStarcraft in front of you're girlfriend, I know I don't.
But ultimately you can't deny that lots of people who play/watch this game are socially awkward. That doesn't mean they ALL are.
Personally I don't think there's any problem with that.
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The moral of the story here - Thank god for TL. It seems like without the massive amount of community rage, ESLs arbitrary ban on IdrA probably wouldn't have been lifted, so give yourselves a round of applause guys, or a pat on the back. We did it.
Oh and please read through important parts of the thread before commenting on this whole debacle. specifically the parts where idrA says bigT did not provoke him and he would have made a scene over any caster in his game, and where ESL explains the rules about PPs and bans and then specifically doesn't follow those rules
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On August 17 2010 01:04 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:46 kajeus wrote:
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days. Lol insecure much? You felt the need to justify your life in 1 sentence, congratulations..... but you still watch Starcraft. So yeah you'd be considered a "nerd" by many and expect you don't watch HDStarcraft in front of you're girlfriend, I know I don't. But ultimately you can't deny that lots of people who play/watch this game are socially awkward. That doesn't mean they ALL are. Personally I don't think there's any problem with that.
:-/
Whatever, man. Ask Tasteless what it's like to be a nerd, I guess.
Honestly, I have watched Starcraft around girlfriends. Not the biggest deal in the world. I mean, it's not like I'm watching BDSM porn. I make fun of myself for watching pewpew aliens and show them Bisu or Jaedong and make fun of how APM is so hot. But it's not like it takes over my life, so they don't care.
Amen to "there's no problem with that." Cheers.
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Though it is certain that IdrA's perceived attitude has hurt him and, with the clandestinely resilient minds on the Internet, will continue to hurt him, I cannot interpret this incident--its solution, its penalty, and its resolution--as anything but a grand error on the part of the ESL admins. Should players and admins not identify each other by their Internet ego or persona, I think, piercingly wrong decisions such as these would be far more sparse.
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On August 17 2010 01:04 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:46 kajeus wrote:
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days. Lol insecure much? You felt the need to justify your life in 1 sentence, congratulations..... but you still watch Starcraft. So yeah you'd be considered a "nerd" by many and expect you don't watch HDStarcraft in front of you're girlfriend, I know I don't. But ultimately you can't deny that lots of people who play/watch this game are socially awkward. That doesn't mean they ALL are. Personally I don't think there's any problem with that.
he didn't sound insecure at all to me
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On August 16 2010 20:41 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 20:30 Pezo wrote:
I don't want to get into an argument with Idra fanboys or talk about this situation with him and the ESL.
The one thing i still don't understand about this, is why so many people like this kid. Hes one of the most arrogant, disrepectful and whiniest person ive every seen. Out of all the comments to come out of last night. The one that stood out the most for me was something on the lines of " Im there biggest draw". Which bascially means he thinks he can do whatever he likes for this reason. Whether this is true or not, this type of comment only backs up the comments made about him. I watch SC streams like many other people, to watch some good SC. Regardless of whether big headed Idra is playing or any other person in fact.
Also one common theme ive seen from watching a lot of SC tournaments recently is that organisation isn't there greatest strength and definetly needs to be improve. But most of the gamers who take part in them of course don't seem to be happy about it, but just get on with them. Idra however being the Mighty Idra he is, can't seem to do so.
If the kid put as much effort into his whining than he did into SC play he'd be as famous and as good as he thinks he actually is. If Idra just grew up, played the game and showed us how well he can play. While keeping his mouth shut. Id have no complaints and wouldn't be posting this right now, but this is without a doubt not going to happen and people like him need to learn some respect and act there age. He actually seems pretty chill outside of the game. He definitely has an ego, but that will be put in check when he starts to lose. Its really hard to not get an ego when you perform well at a high level.
meh he had the exact same attitude years ago when he wasn't even that good
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On August 17 2010 01:04 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:46 kajeus wrote:
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days. So yeah you'd be considered a "nerd" by many and expect you don't watch HDStarcraft in front of you're girlfriend, I know I don't.
I watch HD around my wife... she sometimes even tries to watch with me. More out of politeness than interest, I think. Y'all need to get better girls 
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I've seen some people in this thread complaining about how TL newbies are pretty much the only ones defending ESL. As a TL noob myself, I'd just like to say that we're not all like that. I personally love watching IdrA play and feel that ESL was completely in the wrong in this case. I even enjoy IdrA's bm; it adds a lot of entertainment value. I think it's definitely true that a lot of new people to the SC scene are only taking HD and Husky's word for it that IdrA is this terribly bm player, but when I watched their commentaries on IdrA's games against Masq and Silver, I just came away with a bad taste in my mouth because of their anti-IdrA bias. I just wanted to say that even though HD and Husky brought some of us here, not all of us agree with everything they say. I appreciate what the two are doing for the community by bringing awareness to people like me, but I also wanted to say that not all TL noobs are blind HD and Husky worshippers.
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On August 17 2010 01:30 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 01:04 Klive5ive wrote:On August 16 2010 23:46 kajeus wrote:
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days. So yeah you'd be considered a "nerd" by many and expect you don't watch HDStarcraft in front of you're girlfriend, I know I don't. I watch HD around my wife... she sometimes even tries to watch with me. More out of politeness than interest, I think. Y'all need to get better girls
Or we need to marry them, no hiding your true self then xD
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On August 17 2010 01:33 Kishkumen wrote:
I appreciate what the two are doing for the community by bringing awareness to people like me, but I also wanted to say that not all TL noobs are blind HD and Husky worshippers.
You'd be surprised how many people are. I can't count how many times I've heard "well the only casters i know about are HD and Husky, and they are obviously the best"...
On August 17 2010 00:17 kheldorin wrote:
Players are going to Korea to become better. Why can't tournament organizers and casters do the same? It's better to learn from an established model than just "going with the flow".
It'd blow your mind how hard it is to get any sponsors to even sponsor a small prize pool let alone fronting the cost of a trip like that. But I don't think going to Korea would help much since most casters don't understand Korean.
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EPT
