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On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:45 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:42 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:37 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 21:59 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
BigT wants to cover idra's games in the 3rd esl qualifier, idra doesn't want bigt shoutcasting, idra is very difficult and rude when bigt tries to cast. BigT says idra is being a dick, idra becomes even more difficult and rude because of what BigT said, Beef a tourney admin apparently tells idra he has to let bigt cast, idra thinking he is larger than life rejects what the admin says and is verbally combative with beef. Power struggle ensues.... eventually idra realizes he can not defy the admin, bigt casts. At the start of every game idra says some other shoutcaster is way better than BigT.
Later on ESL realizes the brackets messed up and idra must replay a corrected match, idra unhappy with the situation can not control his temper and gets verbally combative again.... ESL decides to disqualify/ban him for previous behavior in other qualifiers building up to this qualifer. (Basically they felt they had put up with his insults and attitude for long enough and it was time to take action)
Drama ensues on TL and irc. ESL feeling the backlash lacks the courage of their convictions and reverses the ban. This is ridiculous. The casters and tournaments should help the player play the matches in the best possible conditions. You claim Idra is "larger than life and verbally combative" when everything you have done leading up to that is ridiculous. It's not Idra's fault you fucked up the bracket. It is not Idra's fault you guys use a horrible cheating caster who thinks he is ABOVE the players, and will do anything for a bit of publicity. Did you ever once listen to BigT cast? If you think Idra should be punished for 1 season because of disrespect you should ban BigT for life for the same thing. Just because you run a tournament doesn't give you godmode over everything. You have just lost one more viewer. I think you've misunderstood... I am not a part of ESL, I was just giving a run down for the guy that wanted to know what happened. My mistake. Either way, whoever came to this decision makes this tournament a lot less interesting when you get rid of the absolute best American (and foreigner, period). Everything to do with American starcraft has been dominated by Idra for the last year and a half. I can guarantee they will lose viewers because of this. Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet.
Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level.
If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea.
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LOL, in conclusion, tourney administrators should, in the future:
1) Issue a clear warning that BM is punishable by a long-term ban.
2) Ban for BM when this warning is disregarded.
Take your cues from baseball umpires, etc.
On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world.
Uh... Let's put it this way. IdrA doesn't look or act like LeBron James.
Moreover, IdrA ain't exactly the rugged badboy type.
You understand that the majority of the world will look at IdrA and find him to be funny... but basically an angry nerd, right?
I dunno about you guys, but I like to point to people like Nony and the TLO and be like, "This guy is cool. Check it out." But then there's IdrA, and I have to be like, "Yeah, he's kind of an embarrassing angry nerd, haha... but I mean, it's Starcraft."
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On August 16 2010 22:48 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 22:47 Klive5ive wrote:On August 16 2010 22:43 Ballistixz wrote:On August 16 2010 22:31 Obvious wrote:
I feel the BM stuff is a completely useless arguement. It is impossible to apply the same set of rules to Esports as you can apply to more social-teambased sports. We are all probably long time internet-users, do you seriously still get offended if people call you anything? If you beat someone, and they do call you something, you should take it as a compliment, as it means you frustrated them to no end, and they saw no other way then to drop their rage upon you. I think a different set of rules should be sought, and applied. There is no reason to be pretentious on the Esports scene, everyone knows how it is to lose, and how gamers and internet users are, and as long as its just words, what is the problem. there is a big diffrence. idra is suppose to be a PROFESSIONAL player and he should conduct himself in a professional manner. not insult ppl just because he looses a game (or wins a game in alot of cases). you dont see idras kind of shit being pulled over in korea now do u. If the rules of game state "don't chat" or "don't insult your opponent" IdrA has never broken these rules. What players do/think outside of that is irrelevant. Basically you're all being biased because you don't like the guy. If the ESL guys take this bias into the tournament then THAT is unprofessional. He's professional to turn up on time, professional to fly to Germany, he plays professionally. This is what matters. Oh but the rules do not allow you to insult your opponent and be verbally abusive to admins and players alike. So he isn't following the rules and isn't being professional.
This has been covered about a million times.
If he insults someone. Quote the insult and give penalty points accordingly.
You constantly ignore the professionalism of the tournament organisers and the streamers.
Probably because you made your account 30 seconds in a failed attempt to untwist your panties after seeing some IdrA bm, or more likely, watching HDStarcraft.
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On August 16 2010 23:09 getSome[703] wrote:
Read the last 20 pages of the thread, wow did a shitstorm happen after I went to bed O_o
So as far as I understand idra now has only 3 penalty points and will be allowed to continue to play? But what happens since he is flying to Germany now?
ESL really dropped the ball on this one, but at the same time idra's attitude does not help matters.
From what I heard yesterday IEM US and IEM EU are completely different entities run by almost different companies, plus none of this even matters if Idra places well in the IEM Global challenge as he gets a buy into the IEM world championships making the US qualifiers completely pointless to him.
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On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:
It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west.
The problem isn't going to be individual players at this point in time. In order to attract sponsors to esport we as a community need to prove that we can run a tournament effectively and without kinks, and prove that there is an audience so the sponsors can make their money back.
This tournament hasn't gone off without a hitch seeing as some power hungry admins tried to ban the polarizing figure in this fledgling sport. Any game that IdrA "bm's" someone is watched more then any other. Thats a definitive audience if you ask me.
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On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:45 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:42 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:37 setzer wrote:
[quote]
This is ridiculous. The casters and tournaments should help the player play the matches in the best possible conditions. You claim Idra is "larger than life and verbally combative" when everything you have done leading up to that is ridiculous. It's not Idra's fault you fucked up the bracket. It is not Idra's fault you guys use a horrible cheating caster who thinks he is ABOVE the players, and will do anything for a bit of publicity. Did you ever once listen to BigT cast? If you think Idra should be punished for 1 season because of disrespect you should ban BigT for life for the same thing. Just because you run a tournament doesn't give you godmode over everything. You have just lost one more viewer. I think you've misunderstood... I am not a part of ESL, I was just giving a run down for the guy that wanted to know what happened. My mistake. Either way, whoever came to this decision makes this tournament a lot less interesting when you get rid of the absolute best American (and foreigner, period). Everything to do with American starcraft has been dominated by Idra for the last year and a half. I can guarantee they will lose viewers because of this. Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea.
I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time.
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On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:45 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:42 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
I think you've misunderstood... I am not a part of ESL, I was just giving a run down for the guy that wanted to know what happened. My mistake. Either way, whoever came to this decision makes this tournament a lot less interesting when you get rid of the absolute best American (and foreigner, period). Everything to do with American starcraft has been dominated by Idra for the last year and a half. I can guarantee they will lose viewers because of this. Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time.
And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america.
People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock.
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On August 16 2010 23:11 kajeus wrote:LOL, in conclusion, tourney administrators should, in the future: 1) Issue a clear warning punishable by a long-term ban for BM. 2) Ban for BM when this warning is disregarded. Take your cues from baseball umpires, etc. Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Uh... Let's put it this way. IdrA doesn't look or act like LeBron James. Moreover, IdrA ain't exactly the rugged badboy type. You understand that the majority of the world will look at IdrA and find him to be funny... but basically an angry nerd, right? I dunno about you guys, but I like to point to people like Nony and the TLO and be like, "This guy is cool. Check it out." But then there's IdrA, and I have to be like, "Yeah, he's kind of an embarrassing angry nerd, haha... but I mean, it's Starcraft."
That's exactly the problem we have. It IS Starcraft and our players aren't seen as cool.
But more and more people are playing games and eventually that will change.
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On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:45 setzer wrote:
[quote]
My mistake. Either way, whoever came to this decision makes this tournament a lot less interesting when you get rid of the absolute best American (and foreigner, period). Everything to do with American starcraft has been dominated by Idra for the last year and a half. I can guarantee they will lose viewers because of this. Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock.
IdrA is not the one who's stunting e-sports, it's the "Games are for children/nerds" mentality. I've talked to plenty of folks regarding e-sports who're not into it at all, and I've never heard "Well, there are so many dickheads in the e-sports scene, not worth watching". I have on the other hand heard "Haha, way to take a game way too seriously".
Saying some bm is what's holding back e-sports is ridiculous.
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On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:45 setzer wrote:
[quote]
My mistake. Either way, whoever came to this decision makes this tournament a lot less interesting when you get rid of the absolute best American (and foreigner, period). Everything to do with American starcraft has been dominated by Idra for the last year and a half. I can guarantee they will lose viewers because of this. Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock.
"If players acted professional, esports would be way larger."
What a horrible argument. The reason esports isn't as large in America compared to, say, Korea is simply because of how society views video games.
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On August 16 2010 23:20 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. IdrA is not the one who's stunting e-sports, it's the "Games are for children/nerds" mentality. I've talked to plenty of folks regarding e-sports who're not into it at all, and I've never heard "Well, there are so many dickheads in the e-sports scene, not worth watching". I have on the other hand heard "Haha, way to take a game way too seriously". Saying some bm is what's holding back e-sports is ridiculous.
Damn and does someone acting like a childish nerd reinforce that belief that games are for children and nerds?
On August 16 2010 23:25 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 22:47 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
Well the question becomes this, is it good for sc2 as an esport if people who act in an unprofessional manner are in the spotlight? Or is it better to develop professional players who may not be as skillful now but make sc2 as an esport actually look professional? Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes. Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. "If players acted professional, esports would be way larger." What a horrible argument. The reason esports isn't as large in America compared to, say, Korea is simply because of how society views video games.
And why does society view it that way? Because they associate hardcore gaming with being nerdy and unprofessional and having bad hygiene and being socially awkward. And what is professionalism about? In the business world do you show up to a job with bad hygiene underdressed and unshowered?
The argument is completely relevant, if people stopped reinforcing the stereotype with their behavior and how they conduct themselves both irl and on the internet, it would fade away.
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Damn and does someone acting like a childish nerd reinforce that belief that games are for children and nerds?
Not really, all it says is that there's one angry nerds playing Starcraft. Did Wayne Rooney make people think every soccer player is a raging idiot? Though yes, that's an established 'sport' already but the principle is the same.
How many non SC players know/care about how IdrA behaves? He's neither reinforcing nor dismantling that belief as most people don't know him in the first place.
I highly doubt you would have a bigger e-sport scene in the west if IdrA behaved like a saint, it wouldn't change a thing.
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On August 16 2010 23:26 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:20 vyyye wrote:On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:
[quote]
Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes.
Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. IdrA is not the one who's stunting e-sports, it's the "Games are for children/nerds" mentality. I've talked to plenty of folks regarding e-sports who're not into it at all, and I've never heard "Well, there are so many dickheads in the e-sports scene, not worth watching". I have on the other hand heard "Haha, way to take a game way too seriously". Saying some bm is what's holding back e-sports is ridiculous. Damn and does someone acting like a childish nerd reinforce that belief that games are for children and nerds? Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:25 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 22:52 setzer wrote:
[quote]
Idra is the only professional SC2 player. Period. It isn't about arbitrary image ESL wants to set up for how a player must act within the framework their "rules allow." Any case with Idra has to be reviewed different given the situation he is in. Banning someone over an altercations about casters is ludicrous. The organization should always do its best to accommodate the player's wishes.
Idra doesn't lose much being banned (1 season? One tournament?) but ESL loses a lot for banning the best American. And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are. I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. "If players acted professional, esports would be way larger." What a horrible argument. The reason esports isn't as large in America compared to, say, Korea is simply because of how society views video games. And why does society view it that way? Because they associate hardcore gaming with being nerdy and unprofessional and having bad hygiene and being socially awkward. And what is professionalism about? In the business world do you show up to a job with bad hygiene underdressed and unshowered? The argument is completely relevant, if people stopped reinforcing the stereotype with their behavior and how they conduct themselves both irl and on the internet, it would fade away.
You've missed the point entirely.
There's plently of socially awkward, nerdy people in the world.
And guess what, having spent the last 2 hours arguing over tournament etiquette, you're one of them.
If we can tap into that audience then we'll have a successful Esports scene regardless of what the "cool" people think.
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On August 16 2010 23:31 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +
Damn and does someone acting like a childish nerd reinforce that belief that games are for children and nerds?
Not really, all it says is that there's one angry nerds playing Starcraft. Did Wayne Rooney make people think every soccer player is a raging idiot? Though yes, that's an established 'sport' already but the principle is the same. How many non SC players know/care about how IdrA behaves? He's neither reinforcing nor dismantling that belief as most people don't know him in the first place. I highly doubt you would have a bigger e-sport scene in the west if IdrA behaved like a saint, it wouldn't change a thing.
Nowhere did I say idra is the sole reason esports is stunted in the west, I am talking about the attitude/mentality and lack of professionalism from western gamers, idra included.
And I am sorry but if you don't see how acting like a childish nerd helps to perpetuate a stereotype that gamers are childish nerds, I can't really help ya.
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On August 16 2010 23:36 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:26 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:20 vyyye wrote:On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. IdrA is not the one who's stunting e-sports, it's the "Games are for children/nerds" mentality. I've talked to plenty of folks regarding e-sports who're not into it at all, and I've never heard "Well, there are so many dickheads in the e-sports scene, not worth watching". I have on the other hand heard "Haha, way to take a game way too seriously". Saying some bm is what's holding back e-sports is ridiculous. Damn and does someone acting like a childish nerd reinforce that belief that games are for children and nerds? On August 16 2010 23:25 setzer wrote:On August 16 2010 23:16 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:13 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:11 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:09 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:06 robertdinh wrote:On August 16 2010 23:05 scottyyy wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
I think you're taking it way out of proportion. I don't think any newcomers are going to look at the actions of 1 player and decide the entire Starcraft community is a bunch of bad mannered idiots. Every sport has their trouble maker. I can't think of one sport that doesn't have at least one Idra. It's called setting standards, if one player can be BM and unprofessional what's to stop others. The internet isn't exactly a shining beacon of professional attitudes, which is why esports growth has been stunted so much in the west. On August 16 2010 23:01 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 23:00 robertdinh wrote:
And everyone that wants sc2 to be a longlasting esport loses out when they try to hype it up as the next big thing and then people laugh at it because of how unprofessional the "pros" are.
LeBron James is the most professional person in the world. Yes because we all know basketball a sport that is solidified in it's professional scene, is the same as a video game that is trying to create a future of longevity in the western esports scene. I personally think it's unreasonable for you to expect such high standards from a player base that is mostly teenagers playing an incredibly competitive game over the internet. Well to put it plainly, if they have dreams of becoming the jaedong or flash of sc2, they are going to need to take responsibility for their behavior and try to push sc2 to a professional level. If people want to just write it off as a game that teenagers play competitively over the internet, then they should probably stop trying to pretend it's going to be a big esport like bw is in korea. I'm not trying to write it off as that. I'm saying you can't expect 100% professional behavior 100% of the time from any community. I still think it's unreasonable to say the actions of Idra are going to stunt the growth of SC2 as an esport. The community in general is very good and professional most of the time. And in my opinion it isn't very professional most of the time. If it were professional most of the time esports would be in much better shape in places like america. People like idra, serennia, swarm turn esports into a youtube laughingstock. "If players acted professional, esports would be way larger." What a horrible argument. The reason esports isn't as large in America compared to, say, Korea is simply because of how society views video games. And why does society view it that way? Because they associate hardcore gaming with being nerdy and unprofessional and having bad hygiene and being socially awkward. And what is professionalism about? In the business world do you show up to a job with bad hygiene underdressed and unshowered? The argument is completely relevant, if people stopped reinforcing the stereotype with their behavior and how they conduct themselves both irl and on the internet, it would fade away. There's plently of socially awkward, nerdy people in the world. And guess what, having spent the last 2 hours arguing over tournament etiquette, you're one of them.
lol, this attitude in this community gets so old so fast.
We're all "nerds," fine. If by that you mean we really like Starcraft.
But Jesus, most of us are probably pretty cool people. I know I'm not socially awkward or gross. I like Starcraft, yeah, but I still have a cool job, cool skills, cute girlfriends, nice fashion sense, and a pretty awesome demeanor. I've burned so much time on this forum this summer because I'm translating from home until I fly out to my job abroad in... 7 days.
So can people stop projecting all the time? I don't know how you view yourself, but a lot of us can love your pewpew alien game without being weirdos. Or IdrA.
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On August 16 2010 21:12 floor exercise wrote:
The real question is why does ESL give "official" caster designation to a person who:
Provokes players and take great pleasure in seeing them punished
Cheats on MSN with players he prefers
Lies and takes credit for tournaments he does not operate
Does everything in his power to have other casters removed from games to hoard viewers (where is the community spirit?)
I don't think there has been a single tournament where this guy has not caused trouble thinking he's above the players themselves let alone other casters who are usually significantly better than him, with higher resolution streams that don't lag to shit.
Get rid of this clown
This is a very interesting point. One mistake or drama I can forgive, but this laundry list from a guy that is very new to the scene? I don't know if I can swallow that. I actually had to give my casters specific instructions to call me and bring me in the game if BigT started being BigT. I should NEVER have to prepare ahead of time for an asshole caster.
As for the people defending the HuK thing, he should not have continued on the game when GG.net people got left out. He should have said "hey guys the gg.net casters got left out, let's re." It's what we would have done and to just allow it to go on is a horrible move and just proves what everyone is saying about BigT. I have never seen a caster cause so many problems in such a short time.....
Either way this thread is amazing and I'm going to sit back and watch how this unfolds. Either way I spent the first 2 hours at work today reading the 20+ pages of this tread that popped up while I was asleep. What a interesting day for E-drama....
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On August 16 2010 23:10 bmml wrote:
I can't believe so many people watched BigT's stream yesterday, hes a self righteous idiot with an ego bigger than even idra's and to top it all off hes probably the worse caster I've ever heard (not to mention the constant fucking whining).
Also shit like this wouldn't happen if these were REAL tourneys not these terribly organised "oh yeah X game is going on get a caster in there who cares what the players need" If you are going to have a tournament casted you should at least make an effort to set out which games are to be cast and when they will be casted beforehand.
For all the talk of "professionalism" in this thread surely you can see these huge online signup tournaments are a far cry from anything resembling a "professional" tourney.
Agreed. SC2 is looking like the beginning of WC3 right now. Young kids, no structure, very messy.
Something that really helped back then was dedicated admins, especially Baschi who was famous for convincing players to be there on time during league days. He managed to make it more enjoyable for everyone to watch games, because you knew for sure that players were going to show up at the right time and the stream would be official, not a random kid spamming to get into the game but an official stream that actually contacted the host hours before the game even started.
The way SC2 is going right now, and all the shitstorms around the attention whores shoutcasters advertising for their sponsors and asking for donations, it makes me feel very sad. I didn't expect that at all.
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On August 17 2010 00:00 yejin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:10 bmml wrote:
I can't believe so many people watched BigT's stream yesterday, hes a self righteous idiot with an ego bigger than even idra's and to top it all off hes probably the worse caster I've ever heard (not to mention the constant fucking whining).
Also shit like this wouldn't happen if these were REAL tourneys not these terribly organised "oh yeah X game is going on get a caster in there who cares what the players need" If you are going to have a tournament casted you should at least make an effort to set out which games are to be cast and when they will be casted beforehand.
For all the talk of "professionalism" in this thread surely you can see these huge online signup tournaments are a far cry from anything resembling a "professional" tourney. Agreed. SC2 is looking like the beginning of WC3 right now. Young kids, no structure, very messy. Something that really helped back then was dedicated admins, especially Baschi who was famous for convincing players to be there on time during league days. He managed to make it more enjoyable for everyone to watch games, because you knew for sure that players were going to show up at the right time and the stream would be official, not a random kid spamming to get into the game but an official stream that actually contacted the host hours before the game even started. The way SC2 is going right now, and all the shitstorms around the attention whores shoutcasters advertising for their sponsors and asking for donations, it makes me feel very sad. I didn't expect that at all.
Aren't you that french guy that makes blogs calling other people douches? :D Please lecture us in maturity 
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On August 17 2010 00:00 yejin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 23:10 bmml wrote:
I can't believe so many people watched BigT's stream yesterday, hes a self righteous idiot with an ego bigger than even idra's and to top it all off hes probably the worse caster I've ever heard (not to mention the constant fucking whining).
Also shit like this wouldn't happen if these were REAL tourneys not these terribly organised "oh yeah X game is going on get a caster in there who cares what the players need" If you are going to have a tournament casted you should at least make an effort to set out which games are to be cast and when they will be casted beforehand.
For all the talk of "professionalism" in this thread surely you can see these huge online signup tournaments are a far cry from anything resembling a "professional" tourney. Agreed. SC2 is looking like the beginning of WC3 right now. Young kids, no structure, very messy.
You're one to talk. No matter if every accusation was warranted I can't say this was something structured, mature, organized nor did it look like it was written by an adult.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144389
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On August 16 2010 22:09 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 22:06 Zingerac wrote:On August 16 2010 22:05 robertdinh wrote:
He wasn't banned for no reason, i think this is the part you don't understand. He has been giving esl admins attitude for weeks and weeks all culminating into an attempted punishment yesterday for his constantly poor behavior. And the ESL has not paid him for a tournament 7 months ago. Ok but whether they pay him or not, if he is playing in their tourney based on their rules he should conduct himself in a professional manner. This is a common problem in this day and age, youth don't understand the concept of accountability. You are responsible for your own actions, whatever your reasoning is for your actions, you still are responsible for them.
I'd like to see how professional you were if your company stopped paying you for working. You seem to be under the delusion that accountability only works one way.
This is a common problem in this day and age, the people in charge get away with unethical and immoral behavior and the people doing the work get screwed.
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EPT
