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On August 03 2010 13:29 superbabosheki wrote:
He beat Idra on metalopolis simply because Idra went muta ling vs THOR, HELLION. If that were not bad enough, he even engaged with his zlings before his mutas.
He abused LT really well vs Idra by doing that roachproof walloff while getting a fast medivac which was smart play.
Idra lost the first game, 100% his fault. The second game can be seen as T abusing the map, but all zergs should account for this possibility, I mean this maps only been out for like 12 years now.
I normally love Idras bm, but this time it was uncalled for, Silver didn't even provoke anything, or do something super cheesy or all-in, yet he just lashed out on him -_-
yeah lol
I agree 100% with you.
this lost temple version reminds me of the old BW lost temple. idk which one is worse for zerg.
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On August 03 2010 13:55 naventus wrote:
Idra vs Silver game 1:
Idra gets to lair relatively early, doesn't get overlord speed or overseer, though it would have come in time to see armory/thor push, and react in time. In this scenario, I don't buy the "zerg can't scout in time argument".
Mutas are used well to delay push, but second wave of gas goes into more muta, instead of infestor. There's no reason terran should be allowed to push out with a small army like that, especially if 2-3 of the thors can be NPed.
a slow expensive upgrade and then 150 gas units for a spell that lasts 9 seconds when he has plenty of support units. to counter what he did you have to commit to roaches from the start, but his build looked like a tank heavy tank/marine push as he stayed in one base, had a fac with tech lab, and was making marines pretty consistently without a reactor. if you go roach vs that you die. and he had marines on his perimeter, his armory was in the back of his base. by the time it was physically possible to scout what he was doing it was too late to counter it.
Idra vs Silver game 2:
Lair is complete just a tiny bit before medivac is ready to go, so we can see Z scouting would in fact be too late for this sort of build. But it is in time to catch the medivac go out. Other clues would have been lack of hellion, but upgrade going on the tech lab. Seems like could be punished by sacrificing lings for the lab.
Time is 7m, turbo newb going out, but Z can delay a bit with the sunkens. Should be enough time to get mutas if that were placed at Lair, but no spire down, instead roach upgrades going on. Instead of reacting properly, Idra is on tilt, and just tries to all in with roach (vs siege tank????).
lack of hellion+tech lab upgrade does not point to cliffing, it could just as well mean a straight fac unit push or a sneaky blue hellion drop, and if you get ovie lift vs those you lose. mutas do not get out in time to save the hatchery, and you're then on one base muta while he already has access to thor.
it can be countered by getting a 200 gas upgrade immediately when your lair finishes. of course if you do that then you lose to any of the tens of other builds he could be doing, that look exactly the same in all of the information you are capable of getting up to that point.
In both of these games, there were plenty of ways to have spotted and reacted to the builds.
In response to Idra's BM despite mediocre and inconsistent play, I can't wait until the korean scene marginalizes him.
you do not know what you are talking about. bitch and moan all you want, but dont try to talk about how to play.
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So, in all of this, what is it exactly that points at Silver being a terrible player if you lost because of your race's lack of flexibility adding to that wrong guesses from your part? What do you hope to achieve from blaming racial imbalance and then posing as a martyr every time you lose?
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getting the racial imbalance fixed?
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United States272 Posts
I feel the same way about scouting, as the game progresses, people are learning that ovis move in at certain times, and they are as slow as shit, all that is needed to repel them are a few marines patroling the perimiter, or stalkers, cant get lings in because of the wall, and you cant react to every single possiblity that the other race is doing
ovies need to have a little more armor, or have speed upgrade at Hatch tech
and regarding all the huk lovers/idra haters, huk has gotten more attention than he deserves, he hasn't taken a series from any reputable players, so if a player can't beat any reputable players, why are they being invited to tournaments against reputable players. If he doesn't start winning series against good players, then huk will fade and someone will take his place
hopefully he shows us something in HDH2, but if he is eliminated early (which I think he will be) I really hope he stops taking up spots in tournaments like KOTB where someone that can compete better can take that spot, such as Sen :/
p.s. I dont think anyone in this forum is in the position to tell Idra how to play
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On August 03 2010 17:11 Unfurl wrote:
p.s. I dont think anyone in this forum is in the position to tell Idra how to play
I think this needs to be in bold letters at the top of this thread.
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idra should switch to protoss. wasnt idra toss at the start of the beta then went to zerg. back then zerg had hydras with more hp, and better roaches. now zerg is horrible. queens are a unit for zerg that sucks and its their macro mechanic. gotta blow your brains out with spawn larva every 40 seconds.
idra would probably kick twice as much butt if he started using protoss. toss doesnt have to worry about lanky queens or stupid creep. toss doesnt have to worry about sucking vs terran or zerg either.
zerg needs another unit. zerg needs something. its so lacking compared to other races in diversity
when a toss is against you, what can he do??? void rays, mass t1 zeal/stalker/sentry, immortals, collossi, pheonix, dark templar, psi storm. all of those options are viable
when a zerg is against you, what can he do?? banelings, zerglings, roaches, hydras, or mutalisks.... lol...
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On August 03 2010 17:29 roymarthyup wrote:
idra should switch to protoss. wasnt idra toss at the start of the beta then went to zerg. back then zerg had hydras with more hp, and better roaches. now zerg is horrible. queens are a unit for zerg that sucks and its their macro mechanic. gotta blow your brains out with spawn larva every 40 seconds.
idra would probably kick twice as much butt if he started using protoss. toss doesnt have to worry about lanky queens or stupid creep. toss doesnt have to worry about sucking vs terran or zerg either.
zerg needs another unit. zerg needs something. its so lacking compared to other races in diversity
when a toss is against you, what can he do??? void rays, mass t1 zeal/stalker/sentry, immortals, collossi, pheonix, dark templar, psi storm. all of those options are viable
when a zerg is against you, what can he do?? banelings, zerglings, roaches, hydras, or mutalisks.... lol...
So ultras and broodlords are useless for zerg!?
Sorry but this makes no sense to me.
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On August 03 2010 17:32 FlashDaCard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 17:29 roymarthyup wrote:
idra should switch to protoss. wasnt idra toss at the start of the beta then went to zerg. back then zerg had hydras with more hp, and better roaches. now zerg is horrible. queens are a unit for zerg that sucks and its their macro mechanic. gotta blow your brains out with spawn larva every 40 seconds.
idra would probably kick twice as much butt if he started using protoss. toss doesnt have to worry about lanky queens or stupid creep. toss doesnt have to worry about sucking vs terran or zerg either.
zerg needs another unit. zerg needs something. its so lacking compared to other races in diversity
when a toss is against you, what can he do??? void rays, mass t1 zeal/stalker/sentry, immortals, collossi, pheonix, dark templar, psi storm. all of those options are viable
when a zerg is against you, what can he do?? banelings, zerglings, roaches, hydras, or mutalisks.... lol... So ultras and broodlords are useless for zerg!? Sorry but this makes no sense to me.
ultras and brood lords are gotten as slow or slower than battlecruisers and carriers. ultras and brood lords are the carrier/battlecruiser of the zerg race. if you consider ultras or brood lords into zergs "strategy options" then ill count carriers for protoss options. zerg is still lacking in options.
i know i didnt count infestor or corruptor even if i did zerg has less options than toss. infestors are ok against terran bio balls without tanks thats it. any good terran that gets tanks makes infestor useless. infestors suck against toss.
corruptor is good against carrier/bc/collossi i agree. that makes corruptor a counter unit that you get to counter your enemies attack plan. all of the toss options i listed can be counters and they also can be attackplans that come fairly early and can work well against anything your enemy has and it still doesnt suck that badly.
going with some lings or banelings or mutas against the wrong enemy army makes the lings and banelings and mutas worthless. as long as toss has a diverse army mix his void rays and pheonix and templar will never be as useless.
for zerg your lings and mutas and banelings can essentially be wasted money if your enemy is smart... they will do essentially absolutely nothing in combat.even if you have a diverse army
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ultras and brood lords are gotten as slow or slower than battlecruisers and carriers. ultras and brood lords are the carrier/battlecruiser of the zerg race. if you consider ultras or brood lords into zergs "strategy options" then ill count carriers for protoss options. zerg is still lacking in options.
Unlike carriers, ultralisks and brood lords can be very effective if used right. I'm not quite sure of what you're trying to say, late game tech doesn't count as a strategy?
i know i didnt count infestor or corruptor even if i did zerg has less options than toss. infestors are ok against terran bio balls without tanks thats it. any good terran that gets tanks makes infestor useless. infestors suck against toss.
Heard of Neural Parasite? It's said to be useful. Infested Terran has more DPS than a roach, but I guess it's just not a good unit, that infestor.
It is quite useless vs. toss though, I agree. Not like controlling colossi is any good.
corruptor is good against carrier/bc/collossi i agree. that makes corruptor a counter unit that you get to counter your enemies attack plan. all of the toss options i listed can be counters and they also can be attackplans that come fairly early and can work well against anything your enemy has and it still doesnt suck that badly.
Yeah, okay. Corruptors can morph into brood lords by the way, I think you can fit that into your 'attack plan'.
going with some lings or banelings or mutas against the wrong enemy army makes the lings and banelings and mutas worthless. as long as toss has a diverse army mix his void rays and pheonix and templar will never be as useless.
Seen WhiteRa vs TLO games recently? He had a mix of ground with focus on void rays and lost quite badly. Of course your units will be "useless" if whoever you're playing is countering your composition. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find a gme where lings and/or banelings turned 100% useless.
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On August 03 2010 16:58 IdrA wrote:
getting the racial imbalance fixed?
You're doing it wrong.
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United States272 Posts
On August 03 2010 17:59 BentoBox wrote:You're doing it wrong.
No he's not, every single one of his points are valid, they are all valid arguments that cant be defended except saying thats just the way it is
and blizzard does watch top players, and if they see top players struggling to in-superior players, and their arguments are valid, then something will happen to that matchup
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Playing martyr and calling other players trash upon losing is a good way of getting an imbalance fixed now?
Okay then.
+ Show Spoiler +Hurray for selective reading!
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On August 03 2010 19:34 BentoBox wrote:Playing martyr and calling other players trash upon losing is a good way of getting an imbalance fixed now? Okay then. + Show Spoiler +Hurray for selective reading!
If anyone has the experience/achievements/knowledge/whatever when it comes to Zerg in SC2 it's Idra, him calling another player trash doesn't make his points any less true.
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Did anyone here argue the validity of his points? I'm clearly having a jab at the package and not the content.
Can't anybody read here?
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I think some people are missing the point here. IdrA is not putting silver down and saying he is a shit player. He is simply stating the current unbalances (in his perspective) of ZvT. It's not like this unbalance is new or is simply out of rage. It has been stated before that if there was an imbalanced matchup it would most likely be this one.
I think Silver gets credit where its due. He played great. But what IdrA (i think) is trying to show is that it is much easier to come from no where as a terran and take games off zerg, then it is to say play as Z or P.
Overall Blizzard will take a look and recognize what needs to be changed. Don't forget that a lot of options in races take a while to be found out (like in BW's progression)
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On August 02 2010 14:06 hyouro wrote:
Okay, just wanted to let some of you know that.
The last craftcup was, 6/8 terrans for the final matches.
Viking cup was 3/4 Terrans
and the Swedish Inferno offline cup was 4/4 terrans. Now for this cup it is 3/4 terrans
Is anyone seeing a pattern or is it just me?
its just that a majority of "Good" player play terran.
When ofc zerg is the best (:
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On August 03 2010 22:27 n0xi3 wrote:
I think some people are missing the point here. IdrA is not putting silver down and saying he is a shit player. He is simply stating the current unbalances (in his perspective) of ZvT. It's not like this unbalance is new or is simply out of rage. It has been stated before that if there was an imbalanced matchup it would most likely be this one.
I think Silver gets credit where its due. He played great. But what IdrA (i think) is trying to show is that it is much easier to come from no where as a terran and take games off zerg, then it is to say play as Z or P.
Overall Blizzard will take a look and recognize what needs to be changed. Don't forget that a lot of options in races take a while to be found out (like in BW's progression)
Did you watch the games?
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The evidence for terran being broken is so great its just silly to try to argue otherwise. Its not sc1 get off the no imbalance train and wake up :S.
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I think they either need to make roaches 1.5 or put infestors how they used to be, where neural parasite starts out researched. It sucks seeing a terran army and not having any counter to build, so you just hafta start massing shit and hoping they mess up
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EPT
