The build seems to be obviously sub optimal, why not take the gas later then 3 drone it all once? You are losing the mining time for that extractor drone, as well as the roach warren popping a good 5-8 seconds before you can make roaches due to the supply block. It is minor stuff but you should be able to add at least one more drone if not two in there somewhere. That's not something you can ignore. I'm gonna try to optimize it and see how clean I can get it.
This for example:
17 Pool 16 hatch ( gonna use the 2nd hatch supply for the roaches, saving an OV ) 18 Gas 18 RW 18 2 Lings 20 Queen 3 roaches
Gets you the roaches almost 10 seconds before the build as shown in the videos, I think there is a way to squeeze in a 4th roach while keeping the timing and takeing a one drone hit from your current build, but I ran out of time to test for today.
On June 06 2016 16:17 IcemanAsi wrote: The build seems to be obviously sub optimal, why not take the gas later then 3 drone it all once? You are losing the mining time for that extractor drone, as well as the roach warren popping a good 5-8 seconds before you can make roaches due to the supply block. It is minor stuff but you should be able to add at least one more drone if not two in there somewhere. That's not something you can ignore. I'm gonna try to optimize it and see how clean I can get it.
This for example:
17 Pool 16 hatch ( gonna use the 2nd hatch supply for the roaches, saving an OV ) 18 Gas 18 RW 18 2 Lings 20 Queen 3 roaches
Gets you the roaches almost 10 seconds before the build as shown in the videos, I think there is a way to squeeze in a 4th roach while keeping the timing and takeing a one drone hit from your current build, but I ran out of time to test for today.
My goal is to always have 16 drones on the minerals. I get the gas just in time for my 2 drones to finish out of which I turn 1 into a roach warren. I am not sure how your roaches are out 10 seconds earlier if we build our Pool and Roach Warren at the same time (17 / 18 supply). I never pull any drones of my minerals and I get pretty much exactly 100 gas as soon as my 2nd queen in the main finishes so I can start my Lair as soon as possible while getting 3 queens aswell. You can squeeze out a 4th roach with my timing aswell. I simply don't need a 4th roach because 3 roaches already oneshot marines and scvs and my goal is not to kill the reaper with one shot.
It's funny to stumble upon this build because I've been experimenting with a 3 ravager opening that is very similar to your build. I'm a high masters NA zerg so quite a bit worse than you, but since i started using it a few days ago it's helped out a lot.
The main difference is that I take my gas at 17, before the hatch, and grab the hatch around 19 when i have 16 min drones + 3 gas. I've had quite a bit of success with this build, as ravegers can almost always either force a CC to lift, or kill a depot or two. The drawback, of course, is the extra gas invested, which subsequently delays tech, but I find that if I manage to keep the ravagers alive the work great as drop/lib harass.
My question to you is, why do you prefer opening with 3 roaches instead of 3 ravagers? do you think the tech delaying is too much?
There is a "popular" build where the zerg goes for a proxy hatch and rushes the terran with 3 ravagers and mass lings. That sounds kind of like your build.
I only build 3 Roaches because they are enough to force the Terran to get a bunker and either a lot of marines, a tank or a banshee out. The Goal is not to deal game ending Damage to the Terran, but to safely get 2 Hatch Mutalisks. I am not sure how well 3 Ravagers fare against a bunker with 4 Marines but I imagine, that it's hard to deal a lot of damage if the Terran responds correctly.
I used to build 3 Ravagers because I needed them to deal with Liberators anyways. I stopped doing so as I noticed, that my lair is fast enough to just safely go 2 Hatch Mutalisk without being scared of Liberators, Banshees or Tank Drops. So I stopped going for 3 Ravagers and started simply pressuring with 3 Roaches. I am not quite sure what your Techpath after the 3 Ravagers is. I imagine that you simply play a standard game and use them defensivly. That simply doesn't fit my playstyle .
Nowadays I sometimes skip the 3 Roaches if scouted, cancel the Roach Warren and just go straight 2 Hatch Muta of a 2:30 Lair. The build has gotten kinda popular so a lot of people seem to anticipate it.
ah I see, the 2 base muta follow up is very smart. I am going to try and do that, ravager/ling/infestor into ultra is such an unpleasant style to have to play, I am looking for any way to salvage muta play so this is good advice, thank you!
Can't wait to learn this build and test it out! Is it terrible in ZvP? I'd like to learn a build that would be more general, since I don't have time to play so often.
On July 12 2016 20:30 Arnstein wrote: Can't wait to learn this build and test it out! Is it terrible in ZvP? I'd like to learn a build that would be more general, since I don't have time to play so often.
3 Roaches do not really do anything against a Protoss who builds a Mothership core
Thank you for your reply! Do you have any general build orders that work against all three races? Or at least terran and protoss? Would be nice to have something to repeat and build my style upon
On July 12 2016 22:20 Arnstein wrote: Thank you for your reply! Do you have any general build orders that work against all three races? Or at least terran and protoss? Would be nice to have something to repeat and build my style upon
Thank you for your videos, helped me alot in my ZvT match-up! Do you have any other nice agressive openers for other match-ups for zvz \ zvp except all-ins?
On October 09 2016 00:09 Borsche wrote: Thank you for your videos, helped me alot in my ZvT match-up! Do you have any other nice agressive openers for other match-ups for zvz \ zvp except all-ins?
I don't really do "builds" per se... However, there are numerous aggressive openers for all MU's. In ZvP I enjoy going 2 Base Mutalisk against Adepts or 2 base Hydra against Skytoss (Always with a 3rd but only ~44 drones and fast lair).
Against Zerg your best bet at an easy win is to just go for a 1 gas ling roach bane timing with ~ 35 Workers and an early 3rd for the larva production.
Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
On October 20 2016 00:00 Digitalz1 wrote: Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
On August 30 2016 09:25 Najda wrote: How well does this hold off the 16 marine drop? Do you need to make any adjustments to the build against it?
I saturate 2 bases @ Lair Roach Speed + Spire @ 300 Mins 3rd
Then I spam Roaches till I have ~10 and pull the Queens for defense. I make my 6-8 Mutalisks then get my +1/+1 drone my 3rd etc.
So the big adjustment is that I get the Roach Speed and Roaches before the Mutas
Seems like ~5 roaches/queenless base is able to deflect the medivacs, PiG's 3 base roach-ravager build recommended a few more roaches, ~5 per base, so this seems standard
On October 20 2016 00:00 Digitalz1 wrote: Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
Whats the best way to handle it?
I stop at 44 workers, start my spire and roach speed as soon as the lair finishes and I just spam roaches until I feel save. The key is to just spam a lot of roaches and counter with them. I like to add corruptors instead of mutalisks afterwards because they deal well with liberators and medivacs and are quite tanky.
If I know the opponent follows it up with tanks and not liberators, going for 6-8 mutalisks after the roaches can work wonders.
EPT
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I'll just learn one build for each race, it's not THAT much work!
