17 Pool 18 Hatch 17 Gas 2 More Drones directly to the gas -> don't fill up gas 18 Roach Warren -> Use 1 drone from the Gas 17/22 2 Lings -> use them to harrass your oppoent 18/22 1 Queen --> use it to defend against the reaper 20/22 2 more drones straight to the gas @First Queen done -> Start another Queen in the Main @Roachwarren done 2 Roaches in the Main, 1 Roach in the Natural @Natural done build a queen at the natural ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Use the 3 Roaches to harrass your opponent. If you scout mass Reaper or proxy Rax keep them at home otherwise push across the map and try to do damage. @100 Gas / 3:05 start Lair + 1 Gas @Lair Spire + 2 more gas @4:10 Spores if needed / 2 More Queens if needed / 3rd base @Spire 8 mutas / 2 evo chamber for +1 ranged / armor @Evo chambers Roach Speed + (Optional) Hydra Den Drone up 3 bases and kill the Terran! Feel free to add Ravagers, Corruptors, Hydras as you need them
First off you are an amazing player and I watch every game on Falcon Paladin, awesome to see you post here.
Second, I am struggling big time with ZvP even though it's the match where Zerg supposedly can roll over any PRotoss player who isn't twice a good as his opponent.
How do you combat the heavy Immortal Adept Phoenix compositions? I'm utterly lost regarding how to engage it, what benchmarks I should be hitting with my tech/production/expansions, and the Zerg help thread hasn't been updated since release.
On April 10 2016 03:33 Beelzebub1 wrote: First off you are an amazing player and I watch every game on Falcon Paladin, awesome to see you post here.
Second, I am struggling big time with ZvP even though it's the match where Zerg supposedly can roll over any PRotoss player who isn't twice a good as his opponent.
How do you combat the heavy Immortal Adept Phoenix compositions? I'm utterly lost regarding how to engage it, what benchmarks I should be hitting with my tech/production/expansions, and the Zerg help thread hasn't been updated since release.
Kinda offtopic but I think you should watch Solar vs Stats and Dark vs Stats from SSL they play Ling Hydra Bane and / or Ling Bane Broodlord.
Those two compositions work best for me. I'll do a Guide on them once I feel more comfortable with them.
On April 10 2016 03:33 Beelzebub1 wrote: First off you are an amazing player and I watch every game on Falcon Paladin, awesome to see you post here.
Second, I am struggling big time with ZvP even though it's the match where Zerg supposedly can roll over any PRotoss player who isn't twice a good as his opponent.
How do you combat the heavy Immortal Adept Phoenix compositions? I'm utterly lost regarding how to engage it, what benchmarks I should be hitting with my tech/production/expansions, and the Zerg help thread hasn't been updated since release.
Kinda offtopic but I think you should watch Solar vs Stats and Dark vs Stats from SSL they play Ling Hydra Bane and / or Ling Bane Broodlord.
Those two compositions work best for me. I'll do a Guide on them once I feel more comfortable with them.
Also thanks for the feedback
Definitely off topic, but I was literally going to click on the Zerg help thread when I saw this post and was stoked to see it was you of all players posting :D
The ZvT build on the topic looks fantastic, definitely going to be incorporating this into my play. I feel like putting some type of aggression on the Terran in LOTV is the right thing to do in the current meta and I've been playing a very passive and defensive style leading to...less then stellar results.
I think it's a strong build all zerg should have in their pocket to do once in a bo3 Isn't easy to punish, neither to scout and react without delaying your build (as terran). Counters all early aggressive builds from Ts (4 rax proxy, 3 rax reaper, ...) so it's great!
Now that I've tried this build a few times myself, this is something I will definitely do every once in a while. I'm just low masters, but it already works like a charm. I like to play aggressively and the fact that you have a follow up ready when the counter attack comes makes this really safe.
All games went me killing/damaging the SCV, killing marines with roaches, causing a liftoff, getting a spire up, having mutas ready when tankivac arrives. One guy tried one liberator but that got shut down as well. And then standard macro game with me being massively ahead.
On April 11 2016 01:47 KeksX wrote: Now that I've tried this build a few times myself, this is something I will definitely do every once in a while. I'm just low masters, but it already works like a charm. I like to play aggressively and the fact that you have a follow up ready when the counter attack comes makes this really safe.
All games went me killing/damaging the SCV, killing marines with roaches, causing a liftoff, getting a spire up, having mutas ready when tankivac arrives. One guy tried one liberator but that got shut down as well. And then standard macro game with me being massively ahead.
Thanks for the guide, this play style really fits my game well. I have tried this build in the Diamond leagues and had great success with it so far (even against Protoss and Zerg). One build that is currently wrecking me however, is a bio push that hits me around the 6:00 mark. The push usually includes either combat shield OR stim and 1 tank. I have not been scouting around the 3:45 mark as I usually would since I noticed you did not in your games. The last game I lost for example, the guy threw down 4 rax and addons pretty early so obviously the overwhelming numbers caught me by surprise. My handful of roaches + 8 mutalisk were no match. Should I be building more roaches before saturating my 3rd? Thanks in advance!
On April 18 2016 09:21 sOcKs_ wrote: Thanks for the guide, this play style really fits my game well. I have tried this build in the Diamond leagues and had great success with it so far (even against Protoss and Zerg). One build that is currently wrecking me however, is a bio push that hits me around the 6:00 mark. The push usually includes either combat shield OR stim and 1 tank. I have not been scouting around the 3:45 mark as I usually would since I noticed you did not in your games. The last game I lost for example, the guy threw down 4 rax and addons pretty early so obviously the overwhelming numbers caught me by surprise. My handful of roaches + 8 mutalisk were no match. Should I be building more roaches before saturating my 3rd? Thanks in advance!
If you scout 3 Barracks you should not go for the Build and instead switch to a Standard Roach Ling or +1/+1 Roach style instead of Mutalisks.
I found out the hardway that pure bio without any tech does pretty well against Mutalisks!
Awesome and creative ! Watched the game vs Aqueron the build looks very convincing, it's not just a gimmick.
May I ask how you came up with it ? I'm just awful at crafting my own builds and I usually just mindlessly copy what koreans pros seem to be doing so I'm curious to know how you can have such out of the box ideas
On April 20 2016 08:33 [PkF] Wire wrote: Awesome and creative ! Watched the game vs Aqueron the build looks very convincing, it's not just a gimmick.
May I ask how you came up with it ? I'm just awful at crafting my own builds and I usually just mindlessly copy what koreans pros seem to be doing so I'm curious to know how you can have such out of the box ideas
There was a similar build in HotS.
I played ~60 ZvT's against a friend over a week and tried out different build and styles. He enjoyed opening Reapers and I realised that a fast queen defends against Reapers well. Next I tried adding roaches to deal counter damage as he had only reaper / marines for defense. I then also added early lings to try and delay a bunker / cc.
Once I had the opener I had to come up with a follow up this took me a long time. I have multiple follow ups that I did not disclose in this thread / replays but the easiest is the mutalisk follow up. The reason for that is that I often had trouble dealing with Liberators / Banshees / Drops but fast Mutalisks means he has to invest in antiair, turrets and has to play more defensive.
Once I had the Mutalisks down I had to come up with a follow up to that. I tried ling bane muta but it's a hard composition to play. Instead I used my already existing Roach Warren and tried to make use of it and came up with the follow up attacks as you can see in the Replay.
nice guide. as someone currently still trying to figure the best strat out for zvt, this looks very viable and... well researched/tried and tested many times. i will be trying this out on ladder.
On April 22 2016 10:36 JohnnyDavids13 wrote: Very nice build, and guide. Won a few games trying this out
On April 21 2016 15:50 sc2chronic wrote: nice guide. as someone currently still trying to figure the best strat out for zvt, this looks very viable and... well researched/tried and tested many times. i will be trying this out on ladder.
Thank you guys! If you have any questions feel free to ask them
I havnt logged into TL in awhile, but i did just to tell you i have tried this build and it has worked with GREAT success, infact i have yet to lose a game with it. I would HIGHLY recommend this to any Zerg player, currently sitting top diamond and taking down mid / low masters players with ease and amazingly this works well in zvz as the roaches come out in time to block the ramp holding any early pool aggression and FORCING a roach ravager centric zvz game as oppose to mutas.
I also subbed to your youtube channel and look forward to future builds / guides, particularily interested in this prominant ling hydra bane timing for zvp
this is really, really great! tried it a few times and it was always successful - ok, in gold league most of the time the terran was already done after the mutas hit!
Edit: I just subscribed your channel - nice to see a swiss SC2-channel!
On April 25 2016 22:44 Digitalz1 wrote: I havnt logged into TL in awhile, but i did just to tell you i have tried this build and it has worked with GREAT success, infact i have yet to lose a game with it. I would HIGHLY recommend this to any Zerg player, currently sitting top diamond and taking down mid / low masters players with ease and amazingly this works well in zvz as the roaches come out in time to block the ramp holding any early pool aggression and FORCING a roach ravager centric zvz game as oppose to mutas.
I also subbed to your youtube channel and look forward to future builds / guides, particularily interested in this prominant ling hydra bane timing for zvp
Thanks for the feedback!
The build originally started out as a ZvZ build for me where I just blocked my ramp with 3 roaches and went straight muta! So for me it forced a muta centric ZvZ
I will try to make a guide on the ling hydra baneling ZvP style! Thanks for subbing
Why is everyone talking about banes and not lurkers ? I feel like they're more reliable especially at low levels because of many players that don't put the banes on a separate hotkey. It's even worse when they play against sentries and now they have to wait for for the drops for better use.
I know it's off topic but still I'm really curious. I just don't understand why they finally decided to add some banes on a zerg's composition against protoss all of a sudden.
So I have a question for you Railgan- I've been doing this as like my standard zvt regardless. Vs Fast Expand it works great but every now and then I run into an old school T who opens up with some sort of 2 rax opening or a cheese/ all in. If your roaches don't really do any damage and you scout some heavy all in or tier 1 pressure, is it better to keep going with the roach production? Or should you drop a bane nest and go more ling bane until you have the 1-1 ups on roach? I'm talking like pre-spire, early game all in or heavy pressure.
On April 28 2016 01:27 WeenMalkov wrote: So I have a question for you Railgan- I've been doing this as like my standard zvt regardless. Vs Fast Expand it works great but every now and then I run into an old school T who opens up with some sort of 2 rax opening or a cheese/ all in. If your roaches don't really do any damage and you scout some heavy all in or tier 1 pressure, is it better to keep going with the roach production? Or should you drop a bane nest and go more ling bane until you have the 1-1 ups on roach? I'm talking like pre-spire, early game all in or heavy pressure.
If they go 3 rax allin, which you can scout by seeing no factory and multiple rax, you should go for a roach ling or ling baneling composition as it is a very allinny build.
If they go for a standard tank marine push you can easily hold it with additionally queens until your mutas are out at which point his marines should be clearable with mutalisks.
What are you doing vs mech at the moment railgan? Seems like suiciding hellions is super strong in master league so I want to open gasless roaches because zergling speed is utterly useless vs. mech but if I don't blind prepare I feel like the hellions can just do whatever they want (including suicide themselves to kill an entire drone line) but if I blind prepare and they just take more planetaries I fall behind.
Also, Banshees denying outlying bases, that hurts, they are really really fast, I didn't even know they had a speed upgrade until I realized my Mutalisks could barely keep up.
On April 28 2016 01:27 WeenMalkov wrote: So I have a question for you Railgan- I've been doing this as like my standard zvt regardless. Vs Fast Expand it works great but every now and then I run into an old school T who opens up with some sort of 2 rax opening or a cheese/ all in. If your roaches don't really do any damage and you scout some heavy all in or tier 1 pressure, is it better to keep going with the roach production? Or should you drop a bane nest and go more ling bane until you have the 1-1 ups on roach? I'm talking like pre-spire, early game all in or heavy pressure.
If they go 3 rax allin, which you can scout by seeing no factory and multiple rax, you should go for a roach ling or ling baneling composition as it is a very allinny build.
If they go for a standard tank marine push you can easily hold it with additionally queens until your mutas are out at which point his marines should be clearable with mutalisks.
Thanks. What is your recommended transition late game if they make it past the first timing attack? I've had some issues with mass MM widow mine with 3-3 ups
On April 28 2016 01:27 WeenMalkov wrote: So I have a question for you Railgan- I've been doing this as like my standard zvt regardless. Vs Fast Expand it works great but every now and then I run into an old school T who opens up with some sort of 2 rax opening or a cheese/ all in. If your roaches don't really do any damage and you scout some heavy all in or tier 1 pressure, is it better to keep going with the roach production? Or should you drop a bane nest and go more ling bane until you have the 1-1 ups on roach? I'm talking like pre-spire, early game all in or heavy pressure.
If they go 3 rax allin, which you can scout by seeing no factory and multiple rax, you should go for a roach ling or ling baneling composition as it is a very allinny build.
If they go for a standard tank marine push you can easily hold it with additionally queens until your mutas are out at which point his marines should be clearable with mutalisks.
Thanks. What is your recommended transition late game if they make it past the first timing attack? I've had some issues with mass MM widow mine with 3-3 ups
Depends on the map. I usually go roach ravager -> infestor -> broodlord. It's a hard question to answer as it doesn't really have anything to do with the opener but the way you play the matchup generally. If the terran stays MMMM you should go infestor. If he goes Tanks you get broodlords if he goes liberators I stay Roach Ravager.
On April 28 2016 02:46 Beelzebub1 wrote: What are you doing vs mech at the moment railgan? Seems like suiciding hellions is super strong in master league so I want to open gasless roaches because zergling speed is utterly useless vs. mech but if I don't blind prepare I feel like the hellions can just do whatever they want (including suicide themselves to kill an entire drone line) but if I blind prepare and they just take more planetaries I fall behind.
Also, Banshees denying outlying bases, that hurts, they are really really fast, I didn't even know they had a speed upgrade until I realized my Mutalisks could barely keep up.
vs Air
vs Ground
This is how I play versus Mech. Basically pure Roach Ravager -> add corruptors / hydras to deal with banshees -> get Infestors to make sure you can fungal his liberators / banshees so they can't simply fly over your army and kill you. Eventually get a Broodlord / Ultra / Queen / Ravager / Viper / Infestor army.
hi railgun nice post, i feel like if terran goes reaper expand, scouts your roach warren, and builds a bunker in his natural he will be safe against the 3 roaches and all they did was force a bunker = 100 minerals into the terran build. Roaches are obviously more expensive.
On May 21 2016 01:01 isrtor2 wrote: hi railgun nice post, i feel like if terran goes reaper expand, scouts your roach warren, and builds a bunker in his natural he will be safe against the 3 roaches and all they did was force a bunker = 100 minerals into the terran build. Roaches are obviously more expensive.
1 bunker with 4 marines is not enough. You can simply walk past the bunker and attack his scvs. Eventually he will have a tank to clean up your Roaches but you will be able to delay his mining for some time. Alternativly you can keep your Roaches at home to deal with his drops / attacks.
The goal of the 3 roachs is to allow a save Mutalisk transition, not to kill the Terran
Thank you for the build, I use it a lot with great results. My ZvT was strong, but it even got stronger (I'm a plat and I got to beat a masters with it).
It seems that lately the terrans started adjusting to the possibility of lings coming by, followed by roaches. For example, I just played a game where my opponent scv scouted, saw my early pool, and didn't make the CC that early (also used a bunker to secure his natural).
I skipped the muta harras and went for a roach ravager baneling attack (he had a lot of marines) with the roach, bane speeed and +1 carapace which was probably a bad idea as it didn't work out that good.
How do you react if the build is scouted early on, or you don't get to do the harass you planned?
It still denies him mining time, which make the early pool pay for itself, but in those cases they are quite prepared for the roach ravager push (sieged tanks, liberators, ect). I tried the muta harras several times at these cases, but either I didn't use them correctly, or may be I should have just taken my third and get to even higher tech units. What are your suggestions?
Thank you for the build, I use it a lot with great results. My ZvT was strong, but it even got stronger (I'm a plat and I got to beat a masters with it).
It seems that lately the terrans started adjusting to the possibility of lings coming by, followed by roaches. For example, I just played a game where my opponent scv scouted, saw my early pool, and didn't make the CC that early (also used a bunker to secure his natural).
I skipped the muta harras and went for a roach ravager baneling attack (he had a lot of marines) with the roach, bane speeed and +1 carapace which was probably a bad idea as it didn't work out that good.
How do you react if the build is scouted early on, or you don't get to do the harass you planned?
It still denies him mining time, which make the early pool pay for itself, but in those cases they are quite prepared for the roach ravager push (sieged tanks, liberators, ect). I tried the muta harras several times at these cases, but either I didn't use them correctly, or may be I should have just taken my third and get to even higher tech units. What are your suggestions?
If a Terran knows my build I sometimes go for Lingspeed -> 8 Roaches and just kill him with it.
Basically this with only 1 queen and without pulling the Queens.
That is just 1 form of mixup that the build offers. You can also skip the roaches and go straight muta, drop Queens and Roaches, go Straight Nydus and many other things. However, I think going for the 3 roaches into mutas is the safest play and it's what I usually do. Mutalisks are great at dealing with all forms of terran threat and you should always build them to get your 3rd economy safely.
As for the Roach Ravager follow up you can also mix up that one. Sometimes I go Swarmhost example here sometimes I go Roach Hydra sometimes I go Ling Bane Lurker Corruptor. You are free to play as you like
Been trying it out in zvz, sending the first three roaches knowing they aren't coming back but forcing a positive trade against lings using mineral patches and denying mining time, meanwhile I can get real greedy behind it and set up for either +1/+1 roach speed attack or muta transition. So far it's been working out. I wonder why you abandoned this build in zvz?
On June 04 2016 20:20 IcemanAsi wrote: Been trying it out in zvz, sending the first three roaches knowing they aren't coming back but forcing a positive trade against lings using mineral patches and denying mining time, meanwhile I can get real greedy behind it and set up for either +1/+1 roach speed attack or muta transition. So far it's been working out. I wonder why you abandoned this build in zvz?
I can't quite remember. I think I usually got overwhelmed by ling / ling bane attacks and just gave it up
The build seems to be obviously sub optimal, why not take the gas later then 3 drone it all once? You are losing the mining time for that extractor drone, as well as the roach warren popping a good 5-8 seconds before you can make roaches due to the supply block. It is minor stuff but you should be able to add at least one more drone if not two in there somewhere. That's not something you can ignore. I'm gonna try to optimize it and see how clean I can get it.
This for example:
17 Pool 16 hatch ( gonna use the 2nd hatch supply for the roaches, saving an OV ) 18 Gas 18 RW 18 2 Lings 20 Queen 3 roaches
Gets you the roaches almost 10 seconds before the build as shown in the videos, I think there is a way to squeeze in a 4th roach while keeping the timing and takeing a one drone hit from your current build, but I ran out of time to test for today.
On June 06 2016 16:17 IcemanAsi wrote: The build seems to be obviously sub optimal, why not take the gas later then 3 drone it all once? You are losing the mining time for that extractor drone, as well as the roach warren popping a good 5-8 seconds before you can make roaches due to the supply block. It is minor stuff but you should be able to add at least one more drone if not two in there somewhere. That's not something you can ignore. I'm gonna try to optimize it and see how clean I can get it.
This for example:
17 Pool 16 hatch ( gonna use the 2nd hatch supply for the roaches, saving an OV ) 18 Gas 18 RW 18 2 Lings 20 Queen 3 roaches
Gets you the roaches almost 10 seconds before the build as shown in the videos, I think there is a way to squeeze in a 4th roach while keeping the timing and takeing a one drone hit from your current build, but I ran out of time to test for today.
My goal is to always have 16 drones on the minerals. I get the gas just in time for my 2 drones to finish out of which I turn 1 into a roach warren. I am not sure how your roaches are out 10 seconds earlier if we build our Pool and Roach Warren at the same time (17 / 18 supply). I never pull any drones of my minerals and I get pretty much exactly 100 gas as soon as my 2nd queen in the main finishes so I can start my Lair as soon as possible while getting 3 queens aswell. You can squeeze out a 4th roach with my timing aswell. I simply don't need a 4th roach because 3 roaches already oneshot marines and scvs and my goal is not to kill the reaper with one shot.
It's funny to stumble upon this build because I've been experimenting with a 3 ravager opening that is very similar to your build. I'm a high masters NA zerg so quite a bit worse than you, but since i started using it a few days ago it's helped out a lot.
The main difference is that I take my gas at 17, before the hatch, and grab the hatch around 19 when i have 16 min drones + 3 gas. I've had quite a bit of success with this build, as ravegers can almost always either force a CC to lift, or kill a depot or two. The drawback, of course, is the extra gas invested, which subsequently delays tech, but I find that if I manage to keep the ravagers alive the work great as drop/lib harass.
My question to you is, why do you prefer opening with 3 roaches instead of 3 ravagers? do you think the tech delaying is too much?
There is a "popular" build where the zerg goes for a proxy hatch and rushes the terran with 3 ravagers and mass lings. That sounds kind of like your build.
I only build 3 Roaches because they are enough to force the Terran to get a bunker and either a lot of marines, a tank or a banshee out. The Goal is not to deal game ending Damage to the Terran, but to safely get 2 Hatch Mutalisks. I am not sure how well 3 Ravagers fare against a bunker with 4 Marines but I imagine, that it's hard to deal a lot of damage if the Terran responds correctly.
I used to build 3 Ravagers because I needed them to deal with Liberators anyways. I stopped doing so as I noticed, that my lair is fast enough to just safely go 2 Hatch Mutalisk without being scared of Liberators, Banshees or Tank Drops. So I stopped going for 3 Ravagers and started simply pressuring with 3 Roaches. I am not quite sure what your Techpath after the 3 Ravagers is. I imagine that you simply play a standard game and use them defensivly. That simply doesn't fit my playstyle .
Nowadays I sometimes skip the 3 Roaches if scouted, cancel the Roach Warren and just go straight 2 Hatch Muta of a 2:30 Lair. The build has gotten kinda popular so a lot of people seem to anticipate it.
ah I see, the 2 base muta follow up is very smart. I am going to try and do that, ravager/ling/infestor into ultra is such an unpleasant style to have to play, I am looking for any way to salvage muta play so this is good advice, thank you!
Can't wait to learn this build and test it out! Is it terrible in ZvP? I'd like to learn a build that would be more general, since I don't have time to play so often.
On July 12 2016 20:30 Arnstein wrote: Can't wait to learn this build and test it out! Is it terrible in ZvP? I'd like to learn a build that would be more general, since I don't have time to play so often.
3 Roaches do not really do anything against a Protoss who builds a Mothership core
Thank you for your reply! Do you have any general build orders that work against all three races? Or at least terran and protoss? Would be nice to have something to repeat and build my style upon
On July 12 2016 22:20 Arnstein wrote: Thank you for your reply! Do you have any general build orders that work against all three races? Or at least terran and protoss? Would be nice to have something to repeat and build my style upon
Thank you for your videos, helped me alot in my ZvT match-up! Do you have any other nice agressive openers for other match-ups for zvz \ zvp except all-ins?
On October 09 2016 00:09 Borsche wrote: Thank you for your videos, helped me alot in my ZvT match-up! Do you have any other nice agressive openers for other match-ups for zvz \ zvp except all-ins?
I don't really do "builds" per se... However, there are numerous aggressive openers for all MU's. In ZvP I enjoy going 2 Base Mutalisk against Adepts or 2 base Hydra against Skytoss (Always with a 3rd but only ~44 drones and fast lair).
Against Zerg your best bet at an easy win is to just go for a 1 gas ling roach bane timing with ~ 35 Workers and an early 3rd for the larva production.
Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
On October 20 2016 00:00 Digitalz1 wrote: Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
On August 30 2016 09:25 Najda wrote: How well does this hold off the 16 marine drop? Do you need to make any adjustments to the build against it?
I saturate 2 bases @ Lair Roach Speed + Spire @ 300 Mins 3rd
Then I spam Roaches till I have ~10 and pull the Queens for defense. I make my 6-8 Mutalisks then get my +1/+1 drone my 3rd etc.
So the big adjustment is that I get the Roach Speed and Roaches before the Mutas
Seems like ~5 roaches/queenless base is able to deflect the medivacs, PiG's 3 base roach-ravager build recommended a few more roaches, ~5 per base, so this seems standard
On October 20 2016 00:00 Digitalz1 wrote: Hi Railgan, early on in LOTV i found this build to work absolutely amazing against hellion banshee / tankivac drop openers but lately EVERY terran is going for that 2-1-1 double medivac stim timing and if i go for mutalisk i just get shit on by their drop as i dont have the ground. if i scout that timing should i just skip spire and make roach ravagers with +1+1 ?
Whats the best way to handle it?
I stop at 44 workers, start my spire and roach speed as soon as the lair finishes and I just spam roaches until I feel save. The key is to just spam a lot of roaches and counter with them. I like to add corruptors instead of mutalisks afterwards because they deal well with liberators and medivacs and are quite tanky.
If I know the opponent follows it up with tanks and not liberators, going for 6-8 mutalisks after the roaches can work wonders.
The problem with this build order is that a good Terran would never have to even trade straight up with your early Roaches, they just kite and run with grenades. Also, 3 raxx reaper doesn't even have to go for the end game kill, all they have to do is deny mining from your initial expansion for some amount of time, then deny the 3rd. If you try to fight off creep with Roaches, the Reapers just loop around into your main, and throughout all this the Terran can macro pretty efficiently with bunker defenses.
Good build overall though, but I think that head to head, 3 rax reaper would most likely still beat this (assuming the above)
honestly i found this build to shit on 3 rax reaper on multiple occasions, roaches do great against reapers and wounded ones turn into ravagers to zone reapers out even more while slowly trickling drones to 2 base saturation, once mutas are out it doesnt even matter how many reapers he has, hes fucked lol
On October 21 2016 01:42 BarcodeTerran_ wrote: The problem with this build order is that a good Terran would never have to even trade straight up with your early Roaches, they just kite and run with grenades. Also, 3 raxx reaper doesn't even have to go for the end game kill, all they have to do is deny mining from your initial expansion for some amount of time, then deny the 3rd. If you try to fight off creep with Roaches, the Reapers just loop around into your main, and throughout all this the Terran can macro pretty efficiently with bunker defenses.
Good build overall though, but I think that head to head, 3 rax reaper would most likely still beat this (assuming the above)
Exactly the opposite is true, 3 Rax Reaper heavily struggles against the build. It is easily identified with the first 2 lings (lack of 2nd CC) and all you have to do is drone up while playing defensive with roaches and spreading creep behind the roaches. A fast tech to lair and a quick +1 Roach speed attack of 2 saturated bases is enough to immediatly kill most terrans who choose to go for something other than Liberators and Tanks.
I've tried the build on diamond and it works great on some matches but I straight out die on some others as well. I feel like it's not an issue with the build per se, but more of me lacking in some departments such as scouting. So yeah, it's more of a scouting issue:
Sometimes committing to the 8 mutas when the spire pops leaves you vulnerable to a marine medivac (or I guess any other army) push as you have only a few roaches to defend. When should I be scouting a Terran (and what should I be looking for) to identify that he's going to be aggressive early on? I really suck at scouting. Even if I manage to get an overlord over his production, I have 0 idea how to read into it.
On October 23 2016 01:09 Quietus1 wrote: I've tried the build on diamond and it works great on some matches but I straight out die on some others as well. I feel like it's not an issue with the build per se, but more of me lacking in some departments such as scouting. So yeah, it's more of a scouting issue:
Sometimes committing to the 8 mutas when the spire pops leaves you vulnerable to a marine medivac (or I guess any other army) push as you have only a few roaches to defend. When should I be scouting a Terran (and what should I be looking for) to identify that he's going to be aggressive early on? I really suck at scouting. Even if I manage to get an overlord over his production, I have 0 idea how to read into it.
I usually morph an overseer when my lair is finished.
2 Barracks: 1 with Techlab 1 with reator is a dead give away. Other pointers are e.g. Starport with reactor or no techlab on the factory
Hi everyone, do you think this build is still viable? I think the 3 roaches get hard countered if the terran goes for a cyclone, of course that makes the 16 marine 2 medivacs come out late, but lacking defense early maybe leaves zerg too vulnerable?
On February 26 2017 23:31 Gorgoras1 wrote: Hi everyone, do you think this build is still viable? I think the 3 roaches get hard countered if the terran goes for a cyclone, of course that makes the 16 marine 2 medivacs come out late, but lacking defense early maybe leaves zerg too vulnerable?
From time to time I play the 3 roach opener. It isn't as good as it was in the pre 3.8 patch as cyclones make you go home quickly if he is going for a 1-1-1 build. But they can still do damage, and what I like to do is switch to a ling bane composition, as terrans assume its roach based compositions after I open with the 3 roach.
On February 26 2017 23:31 Gorgoras1 wrote: Hi everyone, do you think this build is still viable? I think the 3 roaches get hard countered if the terran goes for a cyclone, of course that makes the 16 marine 2 medivacs come out late, but lacking defense early maybe leaves zerg too vulnerable?
¨ Yep still works versus pretty much every strategy. You just need to know how to adapt
EPT
Isn't easy to punish, neither to scout and react without delaying your build (as terran). Counters all early aggressive builds from Ts (4 rax proxy, 3 rax reaper, ...) so it's great!
I'll just learn one build for each race, it's not THAT much work!
