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bestiszest
France103 Posts
I have vexed feelings about the stalker change, while they will be much better at sniping medivac and will dod better in small skirmishes I just think the lower firerate will make them worse when trading against bio + medivacs ( and they are already not that good). Anyway I'm eager to try that ! Do you have any idea of the release date in balancemap? | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On August 20 2017 03:07 bestiszest wrote: Well we will see how it settles but it seems dumb to me that you are basically forced to use your second chrono on your gateway so that the most basic and safe terran opener (that is not even designed to pressure) deals early damage. I have vexed feelings about the stalker change, while they will be much better at sniping medivac and will dod better in small skirmishes I just think the lower firerate will make them worse when trading against bio + medivacs ( and they are already not that good). Anyway I'm eager to try that ! Do you have any idea of the release date in balancemap? You're never trading stalkers vs bio medivac, or youre doing something wrong :p Test map should be live already on all servers i'm pretty sure | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On August 19 2017 12:57 Perdac Curall wrote: Would love to hear ideas about how to defend in early game in test patch. Is FFE poised to make a comeback? 2gate expand is awesome in PvZ test patch for me, adepts->adepts->sentries. nexus comes during 2nd round of adepts. 1gate expand w/ stalkers into 3gate robo has worked in PvT, even vs proxy cyclones (was a tough hold tho) i think 3gate pressure is super strong in PvP despite the 'shield regen' thing, doesn't seem to help the defender enough if they were greedy, and i have also gone into macro games doing enough damage to justify the later nexus | ||
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bestiszest
France103 Posts
On August 21 2017 09:22 nath wrote: 2gate expand is awesome in PvZ test patch for me, adepts->adepts->sentries. nexus comes during 2nd round of adepts. Isn't your nexus super late with such a build? Or the pressure applied by the first adept(s?) jusitfy it? Thank you for sharing your build I'm pretty helpless when it comes to bo right now :p | ||
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DrunkenJedi
Germany175 Posts
BTW: I'm low diamond level. | ||
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maddogmcgee
Australia105 Posts
I am getting really frustrated with this matchup. I usually beat the terran early attacks and drops, get to saturated 3 bases and prepare to setup for toss late game. Once the terran realises he cant kill gateway/colossus/sentry/storm he sits back on his bases, gets a shitload of liberators and wins. I have tried: - getting a couple of stargates but never have enough void/tempest in time -blink stalker -base trading My question is how to deal this with a gateway/robo army. Is it my fault for sitting back too much and playing passive? Do I need to slow down upgrades and storm tech and blindly get tempest? Suggestions would be very welcome. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On September 27 2017 13:41 maddogmcgee wrote: Hi, i'm sure this has been answered before but a quick search revealed heaps of zerg threads whinging about liberators but not many providing help in how to beat them as toss. I am getting really frustrated with this matchup. I usually beat the terran early attacks and drops, get to saturated 3 bases and prepare to setup for toss late game. Once the terran realises he cant kill gateway/colossus/sentry/storm he sits back on his bases, gets a shitload of liberators and wins. I have tried: - getting a couple of stargates but never have enough void/tempest in time -blink stalker -base trading My question is how to deal this with a gateway/robo army. Is it my fault for sitting back too much and playing passive? Do I need to slow down upgrades and storm tech and blindly get tempest? Suggestions would be very welcome. I think the only solution to this is stargate. You can only win with robo based army if he chooses to not go for air (liberators). Since you never have void/tempest in time, lets try something to fix that. Obviously its really hard to get a fleet beacon down and transition to tempest, so why not try an oracle opener that transitions into robo play? This way, when you come to the point of the game where you need to go tempest, you already have a stargate so you can instantly throw down a fleet beacon and hopefully squeeze out a few more tempest. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
I've also seen people get disruptors to support a ground army, but that's very difficult to control and I've rarely seen it be successful. What I've seen Zest do on stream is skip tempests entirely when he's ahead enough and go straight to carriers while he keeps them pinned back with prisms and zealot/adept runbys. That seemed to work, but I'm not sure if it's viable as a standard option or if it works for him because he's Zest. | ||
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maddogmcgee
Australia105 Posts
Akash, I used to go oracle then 5 phoenix to deal with drops but it left me weak on the ground. Going single oracle into robo might work though, especially if I throw down the fleet beacon as soon as the attacks slow down. Olli, you might be right about pushing a mid game timing. I will give the carrier idea a go as well. Even if it doesn't work well it sounds fun. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On August 20 2017 03:07 bestiszest wrote: Well we will see how it settles but it seems dumb to me that you are basically forced to use your second chrono on your gateway so that the most basic and safe terran opener (that is not even designed to pressure) deals early damage. I have vexed feelings about the stalker change, while they will be much better at sniping medivac and will dod better in small skirmishes I just think the lower firerate will make them worse when trading against bio + medivacs ( and they are already not that good). Anyway I'm eager to try that ! Do you have any idea of the release date in balancemap? The stalker change is very beneficial for P. First of all the raw DPS is unchanged but the increase in base damage makes it so that you can effectively 1 shot units with fever Stalkers. This is huge. Just compare the critical masses vs several early game units: Marine: 5 => 3 Marine with shield: 6 => 4 Marauder: 10 => 7 Zergling: 4 => 3 Roach: 12 => 8 Just the fact that your first volley 1 shots units way faster now, especially if you micro them, can effectively snowball engagements in your favor. Early Stalker pressure with blink will be much more effective. Sending out 4 Stalkers early game against both non-mirrors will be very effective pressure. For example a 2gate expand can really punish early expands from T and force out more units from Z much more effectively. In the late game your Stalkers scale now, getting +3 damage on even upgrades. I would even go as far and say that Stalkers are better than Dragoons now | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
How the hell do you play that matchup???  | ||
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AvatarBlr
3 Posts
I am pretty new to the game, playing protoss, currently somewhere in the bottom of diamond 3. I have a few questions: PvT As I understood, there are currently two main army compositions - the ranged one (stalkers with blink, colossus, sentry + possibly tempest vs libs) and the melee one (chargelots, archons + storm, sometimes supported with air units). So, which of the two builds are better? I usually stick to melee army, as it is more easy to control, and storm is very strong vs terrans with weak micro, however I see many pro players going for stalker + colossus on their streams. PvZ 1) I really get rekt by fast ling + roach + ravager push. Usually by the time zerg attacks I have only 2-3 units, mothership core and a robotics coming up. What's the best way to defend? Should I go stargate instead of robo for fast voidrays? 2) What is the best lategame army composition I should be heading for? PvP What do you do against cannon rush? Do you grap the probes of the mineral line to damage the cannons which are being built? What units do you do against it? Thanks! | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On October 25 2017 19:23 AvatarBlr wrote: Hello, everyone- I am pretty new to the game, playing protoss, currently somewhere in the bottom of diamond 3. I have a few questions: PvT As I understood, there are currently two main army compositions - the ranged one (stalkers with blink, colossus, sentry + possibly tempest vs libs) and the melee one (chargelots, archons + storm, sometimes supported with air units). So, which of the two builds are better? I usually stick to melee army, as it is more easy to control, and storm is very strong vs terrans with weak micro, however I see many pro players going for stalker + colossus on their streams. PvZ 1) I really get rekt by fast ling + roach + ravager push. Usually by the time zerg attacks I have only 2-3 units, mothership core and a robotics coming up. What's the best way to defend? Should I go stargate instead of robo for fast voidrays? 2) What is the best lategame army composition I should be heading for? PvP What do you do against cannon rush? Do you grap the probes of the mineral line to damage the cannons which are being built? What units do you do against it? Thanks! Both of those PvT comps are good, just find which works best for you, or the one you have the most fun with Though it should still be charge with colossi after blink, never want more than ~14 stalkers. PvZ 1) You can still open robo, just full wall + overcharge if you see such a push coming, it should gain enough time for more warpins and chronoed immortals. Just keep walling with cyber cores behind buildings that are about to go down (cybers have 100 more hp than gates) so the lings don't get in, and pylons too so he doesn't unpower everything. Then warpin adepts because stalkers suck vs this. Use the probes at your natural to fight as well just to be safe once the walls go down. 2) Chargelot archon immortal storm, then carriers. PvP What you can do is check around your main before sending your probe scout at ~1 minute (i take the probe that builds the second gas). If he already has a probe there you want to follow it cause that's really early :p and make sure he didn't send a second one. Once you confirm it's cannons, your goal is to chrono and get the msc with a couple pylons to overcharge asap, chrono stalkers, and always focus building cannons, not pylons. If cannons start building in range of your stuff and you think your msc wont be done in time, pull like 6-8 probes and focus them one by one (better kill a couple cannons than attak each one with 3 probes and let them all finish... i've been there) The hard part is dealing with players who abuse terrain to wall themselves in with pylons and protect their canons, or worse, doing it in the back of your mineral line. In that case waiting for an msc is too long as his cannon will finish and deny your mineral line, so you want to pull almost every probe to kill the pylons and chrono a zealot to breach and kill the cannon asap. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On October 25 2017 19:23 AvatarBlr wrote: Hello, everyone- I am pretty new to the game, playing protoss, currently somewhere in the bottom of diamond 3. I have a few questions: PvT As I understood, there are currently two main army compositions - the ranged one (stalkers with blink, colossus, sentry + possibly tempest vs libs) and the melee one (chargelots, archons + storm, sometimes supported with air units). So, which of the two builds are better? I usually stick to melee army, as it is more easy to control, and storm is very strong vs terrans with weak micro, however I see many pro players going for stalker + colossus on their streams. PvZ 1) I really get rekt by fast ling + roach + ravager push. Usually by the time zerg attacks I have only 2-3 units, mothership core and a robotics coming up. What's the best way to defend? Should I go stargate instead of robo for fast voidrays? 2) What is the best lategame army composition I should be heading for? PvP What do you do against cannon rush? Do you grap the probes of the mineral line to damage the cannons which are being built? What units do you do against it? Thanks! ArtyK gave you an awesome response, but I do want to add 1 think regarding the cannon rush. Whether or not you win against a cannon rush is very similar to whether or not you win a macro game, its based on skill and game knowledge. It's not as simple as do X, Y, and Z and you will never lose to a cannon rush. Against a very competent cannon rusher, you will NOT win unless you straight up outplay them. That means knowing where the cannons can be placed, and actively blocking him from forming a wall with the terrain, and or pulling probes effectively to delay his rush and placing pylons in range of his cannons to break with your MSC's pylon overcharge while chronoboosting stalkers to prevent cannons from creeping forward. (other options you have include making a proxy nexus somewhere and recalling your probes, or making a defensive forge and trying to stop his cannons with cannons of your own) Ultimately, it comes down to you having to micro well and making the cannon rusher's life very difficult. Unfortunately this is much easier said than done. Even GM players lose to well executed cannon rushes on ladder all the time. Against cannon rushes that wall in your mineral line, the only way you can actually win is to pull probes immediately and attack two pylons from 2 different sides that form his wall and make sure that BOTH DIE at the same time, and then immediately rush the cannon with your probes. (You have to make sure that both pylons die at the same time or else it is very easy for the protoss to simply reinforce the pylons as you destroy them). Of course, the best way is to simply block the pylon placements behind your mineral line. | ||
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AvatarBlr
3 Posts
One more question - in my league most of the PvPs goes mass air on the behalf on my opponents. This is pretty boring and long... Is there a good push against turtling tosses who go stargate? I tried proxy robo immortal but it doesnt seem to work... | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On October 30 2017 04:08 AvatarBlr wrote: Thanks for the answers! One more question - in my league most of the PvPs goes mass air on the behalf on my opponents. This is pretty boring and long... Is there a good push against turtling tosses who go stargate? I tried proxy robo immortal but it doesnt seem to work... Well, it depends on how early you scout it. What I do is, when I confirm he is going straight into air is getting blink ASAP and templar archives. If he makes void rays, add Storm as well as few Storms can soften the voids nicely. Don't let him ever take 3rd base and utilize your mobility with blink stalkers, some archons can do well if he clumps his units too much. If he has 3rd base mining and/or have quite a few carriers, there's nothing you can do at this point. | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
Storm is good but only vs void rays, though feedback is nice on oracles and motherships. The hardest to deal with imo is playing robo/twilight vs phoenixes because there is no way you won't lose probes. In that case going for faster expands, accepting that you're gonna lose probes and turtle until you have a critical mass of archons is the way. Vs a void ray immortal opening into carriers, going blink is obviously atrocious so you really want to scout well however you can (wether it is with an hallucination or adept shade or observers) Vs someone who only bothers with maybe one or two oracles before rushing straight into carriers, you can definitely hit them with blink timings but not all maps allow you to bypass their defenses. So in general i recommend either archons with attack and shield upgrades, or simply try to expand much faster and deny his economy with your bad gate units while transitionning to skytoss yourself. In both cases you'll want a stargate later to make at least one oracle for revelation. Fighting an army sitting under a mothership with archons if your only detection is observers, too risky. Though even ground vs ground revelation is a good thing to have. | ||
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dabachel0r
Germany3 Posts
I really, really struggle against 1 base Terran All-Ins. Three types I encounter: Cyclones/Marine/Medivac Marine/Tank/Medivac/Liberator Banshee Generally the terrans do make a full wall, so I have no scouting possibility, which all-in it is. I normally build the warp gate before the nexus and I go for a robo. With a Robo I could defend cyclones, but robo sucks against the tank all-in and I rather want to have a stargate. I really don't know what the strategy is to find out what all-in it is and how to defend in the different scenarios. Have you guys any suggestions? Or should I do not build my Nexus and stay myself 1base, but then it can be that the terran built his natural in his base... | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On most maps you should be getting to their base as their barracks is building, and you should be able to scout the amount of gas mined, telling you their gas timing. If they've mined close to 150 gas at this point, you're very likely facing a 1-base factory opening after reaper. In most cases, though, you'll be scouting ~70-80 gas mined I believe. That's a regular reaper opening. However, this could still turn into a committed pressure build. What I do every game is move the probe out of their base immediately after scouting their gas. Their first unit (reaper or marine) will not be out in time to chase the probe. I hide that probe somewhere close to their base. Then, while you're building your first units (MSC and/or stalker/adept), you can move the probe back into their base. If they've opened reaper, you'll be able to at least scout if there's a CC on the low ground or not. In most cases you'll get into the main and get a full scout on everything, because the most common opening is reaper - CC - reactor - factory. Your secondary probe scout happens right as they're building the reactor, so there'll be nothing to deny your scout. If there's a marine at home, that means they never made a reaper and you can conclude at least that it's factory play. Again you should be able to scout whether or not there's a CC though, giving you enough information to react properly. From there on you can play accordingly. I think someone else is better suited to tell you that, because I'm still experimenting with things myself and have tried to avoid SG play as much as possible because I don't like playing it. But I have held 1-base all-ins with a SG quite easily, so I assume it's good. Personally I send out another probe to patrol somewhere close to their base if I scout any sort of factory play, be it 1 or 2 base, so I can see any units moving out. Unfortunately that is quite often the first sign of what factory tech they went for. If there's cyclones or hellions coming across, and you see them coming with that patrolling probe, you're gonna have a grand old time defending them. It only gets tricky when you get caught with your MSC in the main to defend mine drops, and hellions/cyclones show up in your natural. | ||
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dabachel0r
Germany3 Posts
But maybe someone else has an idea how to defend a scouted 1 base? StarGate or Robo? I also think StarGate is the key, but it's so hard sometimes... | ||
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EPT
