|
Austria24417 Posts
On August 03 2017 20:21 Socke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:46 Olli wrote:
So my ladder experience the past few games has been about 50 zergs, about 90% of whom have all-inned me. How on earth do I scout what they're doing? They'll open standard hatch gas pool, third hatch at standard timing and just throw down a baneling nest, or get overlord drop. I open adept/SG. By the time the oracle gets to their base, they're already streaming units across and I'll have only one oracle out to defend, along with a few adepts. That scout is too late. The first 1-2 adepts can't scout anything because shade vision doesn't exist and I can't really suicide them.
How on earth do you figure out what zerg is doing before your front door gets baneling busted or there's lings already in your base? your first adept scouts dronecount/eggs on natural. if you dont see allin this early, then when stuff hits you should have 3 gatewayunits and an oracle. usually build msc after first oracle. put pylons wisely to spot for common dropspots.
What kind of drone count should I be looking for at the natural? How many are there if they're all-inning (how many if they're not?), and what about the eggs?
|
On August 03 2017 20:39 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 20:21 Socke wrote:On August 02 2017 21:46 Olli wrote:
So my ladder experience the past few games has been about 50 zergs, about 90% of whom have all-inned me. How on earth do I scout what they're doing? They'll open standard hatch gas pool, third hatch at standard timing and just throw down a baneling nest, or get overlord drop. I open adept/SG. By the time the oracle gets to their base, they're already streaming units across and I'll have only one oracle out to defend, along with a few adepts. That scout is too late. The first 1-2 adepts can't scout anything because shade vision doesn't exist and I can't really suicide them.
How on earth do you figure out what zerg is doing before your front door gets baneling busted or there's lings already in your base? your first adept scouts dronecount/eggs on natural. if you dont see allin this early, then when stuff hits you should have 3 gatewayunits and an oracle. usually build msc after first oracle. put pylons wisely to spot for common dropspots. What kind of drone count should I be looking for at the natural? How many are there if they're all-inning (how many if they're not?), and what about the eggs?
you can shade through minline 1-3 times and see whats hatching. if its drones hatching and 6-8+ mining its not hitting very early and you can defend with the build i mentioned.
youtu.be/lOAVhSHyyOE?t=1920
youtu.be/z7BFiONg-lE?t=844
if not enough information get msc after oracle for safety. if you see drone hatching with last 1-2 shades it isnt allin.
|
Austria24417 Posts
That's very very helpful, thank you!
|
also notice vision of dropspots in both games (with pylon + oracle/adept)
no problem
|
Against Terran, what kind of gateway unit composition do I want to have early in the game before I have reached any kind of splash damage? I find myself overestimating how well my gateway + maybe a few immortals armies do against bio and I'm not sure if it has to do with the unit composition.
And another, somewhat related question: if I need to warp in to defend against a bio based drop, what units do I want to warp in? Stalkers seem to get eaten alive.
|
On August 05 2017 10:16 Maxie wrote:
Against Terran, what kind of gateway unit composition do I want to have early in the game before I have reached any kind of splash damage? I find myself overestimating how well my gateway + maybe a few immortals armies do against bio and I'm not sure if it has to do with the unit composition.
And another, somewhat related question: if I need to warp in to defend against a bio based drop, what units do I want to warp in? Stalkers seem to get eaten alive.
Usually vs T I have stalkers in the main to defend drops and zealot/adept in the natural. You should have at least one sentry but no more than 2. If you're going for a blink-based build or a glave-based build, you'll want more stalkers or adepts.
Secondly, if you see the medivacs flying in, you'll want to warp in stalkers/HT to snipe the medivacs. If theyre already landing and attacking you, I always get zealots. Chargelots can clean up a drop very quickly if the Terran isn't paying attention.
|
Ok. On a serious note, guys.
PvZ. I'm at ~4800.
It's not like i'm whining but after months of hydra/bane fest i'm at a loss. I tried every possible tactic/bo/unit composition etc, and i fail to see how i'm supposed to play this mu. Ofc there are gimmicks like carrier rushes (and carrier are super strong), successful harras into macro etc, but overall, in a "plain macro game" how im supposed to trade decently with zerg with archon/immortal zealot? I mean when zerg is not suiciding all his banes on 1 archon. I don't even get how this comp is working vs hydra in theory let alone practice: archon is almost a melee unit, immortal has no advantages (no bonus damage no nothing), zealots are kited to death on creep. So to win fight and trade good you obviously need to either land decent ff/storm and (or) have decent concaves (which is hard on creep).
"Add storm" i can almost hear this reply from you. Yes sure. storm is good. But still it wont garantee you an advantage, it will just even the odds. Isn't it a bit of a problem don't you think? 1.5 tier army need all possible tech from protoss to be beaten. We already got TvP for that, ok? I mean this is the core of the problem. And zergs abuse that. While you struggling to defend your 3rd (and 4rth) at all possible timings (vs late hydra pushes, all-ins and almost all-ins w/e) and gathering an army that can somehow challenge hydra bane on creep zerg just goes: lurker, bl, sh, mass muta w/e shit.
So. To summ it up. You can always bash me with "play better" comments. But.
PvZ was always about swithching tech to counter each other (unlike PvT that is about macro/micro battles - and im completely fine with that). But the sole fact every freaking zerg on the ladder is goind hydra bane in every possible scenario speaks for itself. Zerg has it's own MMM now. It counters every kind of harass from protoss, super mobile, excellent for all-ins, pushes, even as a lategame comp. It has absolutely 0 drawbacks.
|
there's also no other sensible composition for zerg in a macro game, so i dunno what you want zergs to do instead? i agree hydra bane is very strong, but i play both zerg and protoss and i watch pro games and it seems far from broken. if showtime can take games off of soo i highly doubt it's as bad as you suggest. every gimmick zerg has is potentially strong but HIGHLY counterable
if you find it impossible to reach storm and trade properly with zerg you should try to figure out what you aren't doing to limit zerg's macro. maybe your warp prism usage or simcity can be improved, maybe you just don't spread units or micro templar well enough. telling you to play better isn't "bashing" at all, it's the point of training and the point of these threads... face it dude, you're no different from any other person who blames the game for being broken, you think your play is perfect and it's not. i know mine isn't
|
I've never said my play is perfect. Im playing this game no matter what for years and intend to continue doing so regardless of balance swings. My point was: the whole LotV concept was introducing new tools for each race thus expanding the variety of comps/tactics along with increasing the pace of the game. Cause you know, everyone was sick of Hots "every game's the same style" (btw i wasnt). And blizzard somehow managed to reach the goal. Every mu was improved in that regard. Take pvt, for instance. Even at pro level there is no stable meta. All kinds of units are widely used on different stages of the game. Or ZvT. Same. A real progress (if compared to Hots). But PvZ endures exact same issues it has in late Hots. Every single game we got bane/hydra (roach/hydra in Hots) vs archon/zealot (blink stalker sentry in Hots). And it's zerg who dictates the playstyle. If you see zerg going for hydra you literally can't do anything but archon/zealot, not the other way around.
|
I'm so disgusted by terrans it's beyond all hope.
I scout after gate, check for super close in-your-face-proxies and check their base. Double gas.
Usually means cyclones, right? I even get a pylon up later in his natural to spot for things coming from it.
Out of 3 games vs 1base double gas I got mass bio'd (seriously), 4 widow mine dropped and banshee'd with cloak.
HOW on earth am I supposed to prepare for this? I can't just open every damn tech, this already makes me stop probe production because I'm dead worried of what is coming. I know I have mental block vs terran, but this is ridiculous.
|
On August 11 2017 06:39 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
I'm so disgusted by terrans it's beyond all hope.
I scout after gate, check for super close in-your-face-proxies and check their base. Double gas.
Usually means cyclones, right? I even get a pylon up later in his natural to spot for things coming from it.
Out of 3 games vs 1base double gas I got mass bio'd (seriously), 4 widow mine dropped and banshee'd with cloak.
HOW on earth am I supposed to prepare for this? I can't just open every damn tech, this already makes me stop probe production because I'm dead worried of what is coming. I know I have mental block vs terran, but this is ridiculous.
I feel your pain, man.
I don't know if i'm doing this right but when i scout proxy double gas (and we are talking about proxy double gas right?), i check for exact proxy to know what's coming. It could be factory stuff OR mass barracks.
In case of factory openings you just go SG and w/e - VR/Phoenix/Oracle - everything works pretty good with adepts. In case of bio (including marauders) i just build A FORGE and 2 cannons on ramp -> Warp prism counter push.
p.s.: i assume you don't try defending at your nat?
p.p.s: in case of non-proxy 2x gas. You just go stargate and defend everything at you nat.
|
I'm lost at this.
I see double gas I instantly start scouting for proxies. And in this 3 games recently I covered whole map except his main for obvious reasons. No proxy.
One game I opened stargate into oracle, but my timing was a bit off (I have this stupid mental block when I stop playing as soon as I see terran on loading screen~~) so my oracle was on the other side of map - banshee didn't even had to cloak.
Other game it was mass bio (mostly marauder) with... natural flying in. At like 4-5 minute mark.
And other was 4 widow mine drop with drilling claws. Everything inbase, nothing proxied. I'm losing my mind everytime it happens.
|
To the guys scouting double gas opening vs terran: honeslty stargate with nix is best path u can choose.
You can simply lift up cyclone with nix and warp some stalker to kill them ez pz, even while taking a 2nd base.
|
On August 11 2017 20:25 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
I'm lost at this.
I see double gas I instantly start scouting for proxies. And in this 3 games recently I covered whole map except his main for obvious reasons. No proxy.
One game I opened stargate into oracle, but my timing was a bit off (I have this stupid mental block when I stop playing as soon as I see terran on loading screen~~) so my oracle was on the other side of map - banshee didn't even had to cloak.
Other game it was mass bio (mostly marauder) with... natural flying in. At like 4-5 minute mark.
And other was 4 widow mine drop with drilling claws. Everything inbase, nothing proxied. I'm losing my mind everytime it happens.
Usually, my go to plan against scouting double gas is to do this build here. It's pretty universal against everything a gas based proxy can hit you with. I don't even waste my time scouting for proxies because it will either show up at my base and i will be ready to defend (for the most part) with overcharge and the initial units as the gates finish turning to WGs, or there is no proxy, and I can still deal a lot of damage offensively since they went for the double gas as opposed to the macro opener. The important thing to remember is to chrono out a defensive observer after the prism finishes to be safe against banshees and mines, and have good MSC placement. Don't worry too much about saving your natural if you can outright kill them with the push.
|
Austria24417 Posts
I wouldn't start practicing defending this now 
|
On August 17 2017 08:06 Olli wrote:I wouldn't start practicing defending this now
The patch won't be on ladder before weeks (after Blizzcon), so why not
|
Would love to hear ideas about how to defend in early game in test patch. Is FFE poised to make a comeback?
|
I'm clueless atm.
Vs zerg the most common tech path is stargate and most pros go sg before msc so I guess we should be alright (although the fact msc is gone might popularize cheesy zerglings strats in which case FFE might be on the table).
Vs P I really hope it won't turn back into the 4gates feast WoL was (or whatever agressive build becomes the new 4gates).
I'm relly concerned about T though they have so much harass potential and protoss units are generally weak in small number..
What's more you usually deflect the reaper with the msc (adept/stalker is being produced but will be done after the reaper is in your base assuming the T went standard reaper expand and you are playing on a decent map) which means a reaper would deny mining time really easily.
We might be forced to go cyber before expand or chrono out the first unit(s) (both of these options seem pretty poor imo)
Another thought was that we would need less gas early on (msc costed 100) so we might see a build with delayed gas to have exacly 75 /100 gas when cyber is done (I have no idea if that is possible though) which allows your first unit to be prepared for the reaper.
Then in mid game just be a god and split perfectly between your bases I heard Terrans saying it was SO easy to do..
Not an expert player but that's how I see it atm however the whole meta might change a lot so we'll see^^
|
On August 19 2017 20:15 bestiszest wrote:
I'm clueless atm.
Vs zerg the most common tech path is stargate and most pros go sg before msc so I guess we should be alright (although the fact msc is gone might popularize cheesy zerglings strats in which case FFE might be on the table).
Vs P I really hope it won't turn back into the 4gates feast WoL was (or whatever agressive build becomes the new 4gates).
I'm relly concerned about T though they have so much harass potential and protoss units are generally weak in small number..
What's more you usually deflect the reaper with the msc (adept/stalker is being produced but will be done after the reaper is in your base assuming the T went standard reaper expand and you are playing on a decent map) which means a reaper would deny mining time really easily.
We might be forced to go cyber before expand or chrono out the first unit(s) (both of these options seem pretty poor imo)
Another thought was that we would need less gas early on (msc costed 100) so we might see a build with delayed gas to have exacly 75 /100 gas when cyber is done (I have no idea if that is possible though) which allows your first unit to be prepared for the reaper.
Then in mid game just be a god and split perfectly between your bases I heard Terrans saying it was SO easy to do..
Not an expert player but that's how I see it atm however the whole meta might change a lot so we'll see^^
You forgot that the chrono is 100% increase so you'll actually get a stalker faster than a chronoed adept in the current patch. With the shield battery your units will be so much stronger in defense, and the WM nerf will make it even easier, it's completly fine.
In wol there was no pylon or nexus overcharge, we usually just had to get stalkers on a separate hotkey to defend drops. It's not harder than having your slow msc in position for overcharges.
|
Austria24417 Posts
Stalkers will be much better at shooting down medivacs as well, due to higher burst damage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
