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On May 12 2017 11:03 FoxShine11 wrote:
Returning 1 time master, mostly diamond player after ~year break.. currently high plat with very little playtime. When is the best time to expand against Terran?, Iv seen expands go down before gateway, after gateway before cybercore, after cybercore, and rarely after a robo. What are some considerations on safety, or where risk/reward round off nicely?
Not considering situations like scouting CC first, or no gas Rax where you would reactively drop a nexus, or take advantage of Terran vulnerability.
I'm interested in situations where Terran gets barracks, 1 gas, closes ramp, maybe has a couple marines.
What do you look for and what's the overall middle ground / safest path against possible mine/medivac pressure or a 1 base attack? Sorry if this is hard to read I'm looking for thoughts and perspectives on the subject.
Everything's plain and simple. You always expand on 20 supply (after the gate).
Exeptions: you scout either 2 gaz (means cyclone push) or no gaz (marrine+bunker rushes).
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hey,
i offrace toss as a semi casual cheeser. since the charge cost reduction patch i've been trying various different extreme charge zealot cheeses against all races with decent success against zerg. i do a few variations
sometimes i go 19 nexus to fake macro play into hidden twilight charge 4gate, proxying gateways and building zealots out of them before warp gate is done. charge can be completed so quickly now that i've instantly won games with 8-12 charge zealots, especially against zerg, and i've also been able to do enough damage to terran's natural that i can transition into a macro game. i've also tried expanding and cutting probes at 8 on natural before the allin, and i've even done straight up 1 base charge 4gate, which can work as a surprise thing but is not very deceptive against good players
other varations i'm working on are delaying charge a bit to get a robo and prism (proxying gates is unreliable against good scouts, and the prism makes these builds more reliable against terran), or going 1 base proxy oracle with 13 on minerals, pulling 3 off of 2nd gas and transitioning back into the charge 4gate (which is very goofy but that's how i like to play)
i just do this for fun and my strategy isn't very refined - any high level cheesy players out there doing charge builds after the patch? obviously at high levels it won't be good against terran, and i'm still not sure if it's worth doing against protoss, especially since there are no protoss on ladder anymore LOL
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Just recently came back to the game and started playing Protoss. Placed in diamond 3 right now but i lack late-game knowledge. I often find myself wondering which composition to build in the different MUs.
PvT: Using Stats fast colossus double forge build (from Spawning tool). Late game they already got enough vikings or liberators to render colossy(?) so i try to go for chargelots and HT. Storm is really strong yet i find chargelots/stalkers or adepts to be lacking. Seems like i got a strong ability but no frontline. Which comp best to go here? Also don t even get me started on drops. I just can t stop them.
PvZ: Here i use the DT into Archon build order from PiG with medium sucess. Often i find myself way behind in bases and units and just don t even know where to go with tech. HT seemer weaker here and i honestly don t know how to go up against roaches/ravager/lurker comps. Stalkers seem weak overall and i don t know if its worth to turtle to carriers.
Hoping to give you some insight and receive some feedback to my plan. You can also recommend me different build oders if there are better but i refuse oracle since microing it to harass makes me fall behind on my macro.
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On May 29 2017 18:08 Sliox wrote:
Just recently came back to the game and started playing Protoss. Placed in diamond 3 right now but i lack late-game knowledge. I often find myself wondering which composition to build in the different MUs.
PvT: Using Stats fast colossus double forge build (from Spawning tool). Late game they already got enough vikings or liberators to render colossy(?) so i try to go for chargelots and HT. Storm is really strong yet i find chargelots/stalkers or adepts to be lacking. Seems like i got a strong ability but no frontline. Which comp best to go here? Also don t even get me started on drops. I just can t stop them.
PvZ: Here i use the DT into Archon build order from PiG with medium sucess. Often i find myself way behind in bases and units and just don t even know where to go with tech. HT seemer weaker here and i honestly don t know how to go up against roaches/ravager/lurker comps. Stalkers seem weak overall and i don t know if its worth to turtle to carriers.
Hoping to give you some insight and receive some feedback to my plan. You can also recommend me different build oders if there are better but i refuse oracle since microing it to harass makes me fall behind on my macro.
Typical protoss issues. Sometimes i kinda regret im not terran. I wish i could just spam mmm 24/7 for 7 years and pretend it's intended. On a serious note though.
PvT. You got 2 options (at least in the current meta).
1. Straight to colosi. (first units - mostly stlakers)
Pros: decent drop defense with early stalkers (3-4 split between bases + MC), then if you somehow manage to survive the mid game you are in an awesome spot with 4 colosi+heavy stalker force. That's all u need to finish him off in ~70% of games. If you feel you cannot - add storm. Destroy.
Cons: Or should i say "con"? Tap out immidiently as you scout tech lab on factory. Early-mid game tank pushes will obliterate you.
Conclusion: never go colosi exept mindgames etc.
2. Adept/phoenix.
Pros: abosolete drop defense with phoenix early game, awesome eco with early 3rd (on 4:00) may be difficult to defend though - pay attention.
Cons: Due to terrans being able to adapt recently and ofc an hp nerf, adepts melt to even a mid game (starting from ~ 7:00) bio balls + mines.
Conclusion: Open adept/phoenix to defend drops and tanks early in the game then switch to 2x robo colosi+blink asap.
oh and some ppl play gateway styles i cant comment on that...
PvZ.
Not much to say here. You either go DT drop/ 7 adept pressure or oracle then charge/immo storm. Just practice that. Defend with sentries. Need lots of them as bane/hydra is out of hand these days.
About Carrier turtling. I've been doing this for ages now and i wont recommend it. The thing is if you delay carriers to apply initial pressure with lets say adepts and don't do enough damage you will be destroyed with hydra timing, and if you rush carriers you gonna be flooded with ling/bane.
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On May 29 2017 20:58 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 18:08 Sliox wrote:
Just recently came back to the game and started playing Protoss. Placed in diamond 3 right now but i lack late-game knowledge. I often find myself wondering which composition to build in the different MUs.
PvT: Using Stats fast colossus double forge build (from Spawning tool). Late game they already got enough vikings or liberators to render colossy(?) so i try to go for chargelots and HT. Storm is really strong yet i find chargelots/stalkers or adepts to be lacking. Seems like i got a strong ability but no frontline. Which comp best to go here? Also don t even get me started on drops. I just can t stop them.
PvZ: Here i use the DT into Archon build order from PiG with medium sucess. Often i find myself way behind in bases and units and just don t even know where to go with tech. HT seemer weaker here and i honestly don t know how to go up against roaches/ravager/lurker comps. Stalkers seem weak overall and i don t know if its worth to turtle to carriers.
Hoping to give you some insight and receive some feedback to my plan. You can also recommend me different build oders if there are better but i refuse oracle since microing it to harass makes me fall behind on my macro. Typical protoss issues. Sometimes i kinda regret im not terran. I wish i could just spam mmm 24/7 for 7 years and pretend it's intended. On a serious note though. PvT. You got 2 options (at least in the current meta). 1. Straight to colosi. (first units - mostly stlakers) Pros: decent drop defense with early stalkers (3-4 split between bases + MC), then if you somehow manage to survive the mid game you are in an awesome spot with 4 colosi+heavy stalker force. That's all u need to finish him off in ~70% of games. If you feel you cannot - add storm. Destroy. Cons: Or should i say "con"? Tap out immidiently as you scout tech lab on factory. Early-mid game tank pushes will obliterate you. Conclusion: never go colosi exept mindgames etc. 2. Adept/phoenix.Pros: abosolete drop defense with phoenix early game, awesome eco with early 3rd (on 4:00) may be difficult to defend though - pay attention. Cons: Due to terrans being able to adapt recently and ofc an hp nerf, adepts melt to even a mid game (starting from ~ 7:00) bio balls + mines. Conclusion: Open adept/phoenix to defend drops and tanks early in the game then switch to 2x robo colosi+blink asap. oh and some ppl play gateway styles i cant comment on that... PvZ.Not much to say here. You either go DT drop/ 7 adept pressure or oracle then charge/immo storm. Just practice that. Defend with sentries. Need lots of them as bane/hydra is out of hand these days. About Carrier turtling. I've been doing this for ages now and i wont recommend it. The thing is if you delay carriers to apply initial pressure with lets say adepts and don't do enough damage you will be destroyed with hydra timing, and if you rush carriers you gonna be flooded with ling/bane.
Thanks for the answer. So going Stargate in PvT is the better option then? Problem for me ist that i am really bad with phoenixes and they mostly sit there rather useless. Also how many gates should you go for with 2-3 bases?
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On May 29 2017 21:19 Sliox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 20:58 insitelol wrote:On May 29 2017 18:08 Sliox wrote:
Just recently came back to the game and started playing Protoss. Placed in diamond 3 right now but i lack late-game knowledge. I often find myself wondering which composition to build in the different MUs.
PvT: Using Stats fast colossus double forge build (from Spawning tool). Late game they already got enough vikings or liberators to render colossy(?) so i try to go for chargelots and HT. Storm is really strong yet i find chargelots/stalkers or adepts to be lacking. Seems like i got a strong ability but no frontline. Which comp best to go here? Also don t even get me started on drops. I just can t stop them.
PvZ: Here i use the DT into Archon build order from PiG with medium sucess. Often i find myself way behind in bases and units and just don t even know where to go with tech. HT seemer weaker here and i honestly don t know how to go up against roaches/ravager/lurker comps. Stalkers seem weak overall and i don t know if its worth to turtle to carriers.
Hoping to give you some insight and receive some feedback to my plan. You can also recommend me different build oders if there are better but i refuse oracle since microing it to harass makes me fall behind on my macro. Typical protoss issues. Sometimes i kinda regret im not terran. I wish i could just spam mmm 24/7 for 7 years and pretend it's intended. On a serious note though. PvT. You got 2 options (at least in the current meta). 1. Straight to colosi. (first units - mostly stlakers) Pros: decent drop defense with early stalkers (3-4 split between bases + MC), then if you somehow manage to survive the mid game you are in an awesome spot with 4 colosi+heavy stalker force. That's all u need to finish him off in ~70% of games. If you feel you cannot - add storm. Destroy. Cons: Or should i say "con"? Tap out immidiently as you scout tech lab on factory. Early-mid game tank pushes will obliterate you. Conclusion: never go colosi exept mindgames etc. 2. Adept/phoenix.Pros: abosolete drop defense with phoenix early game, awesome eco with early 3rd (on 4:00) may be difficult to defend though - pay attention. Cons: Due to terrans being able to adapt recently and ofc an hp nerf, adepts melt to even a mid game (starting from ~ 7:00) bio balls + mines. Conclusion: Open adept/phoenix to defend drops and tanks early in the game then switch to 2x robo colosi+blink asap. oh and some ppl play gateway styles i cant comment on that... PvZ.Not much to say here. You either go DT drop/ 7 adept pressure or oracle then charge/immo storm. Just practice that. Defend with sentries. Need lots of them as bane/hydra is out of hand these days. About Carrier turtling. I've been doing this for ages now and i wont recommend it. The thing is if you delay carriers to apply initial pressure with lets say adepts and don't do enough damage you will be destroyed with hydra timing, and if you rush carriers you gonna be flooded with ling/bane. Thanks for the answer. So going Stargate in PvT is the better option then? Problem for me ist that i am really bad with phoenixes and they mostly sit there rather useless. Also how many gates should you go for with 2-3 bases?
Bo is the following: gate-nexus-cc-adept-sg-adept-gate-oracle-phoenix-3rd nexi-MC-twilight-forge (all that with constant phoenix production) then robo then start adding gates asap. So, early you operate on 2 gates (some ppl build 3). And its not a disaster if you phoenix do not harass w/e, their job is to defend drops/lift marines and mines.
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On May 29 2017 21:19 Sliox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 20:58 insitelol wrote:On May 29 2017 18:08 Sliox wrote:
Just recently came back to the game and started playing Protoss. Placed in diamond 3 right now but i lack late-game knowledge. I often find myself wondering which composition to build in the different MUs.
PvT: Using Stats fast colossus double forge build (from Spawning tool). Late game they already got enough vikings or liberators to render colossy(?) so i try to go for chargelots and HT. Storm is really strong yet i find chargelots/stalkers or adepts to be lacking. Seems like i got a strong ability but no frontline. Which comp best to go here? Also don t even get me started on drops. I just can t stop them.
PvZ: Here i use the DT into Archon build order from PiG with medium sucess. Often i find myself way behind in bases and units and just don t even know where to go with tech. HT seemer weaker here and i honestly don t know how to go up against roaches/ravager/lurker comps. Stalkers seem weak overall and i don t know if its worth to turtle to carriers.
Hoping to give you some insight and receive some feedback to my plan. You can also recommend me different build oders if there are better but i refuse oracle since microing it to harass makes me fall behind on my macro. Typical protoss issues. Sometimes i kinda regret im not terran. I wish i could just spam mmm 24/7 for 7 years and pretend it's intended. On a serious note though. PvT. You got 2 options (at least in the current meta). 1. Straight to colosi. (first units - mostly stlakers) Pros: decent drop defense with early stalkers (3-4 split between bases + MC), then if you somehow manage to survive the mid game you are in an awesome spot with 4 colosi+heavy stalker force. That's all u need to finish him off in ~70% of games. If you feel you cannot - add storm. Destroy. Cons: Or should i say "con"? Tap out immidiently as you scout tech lab on factory. Early-mid game tank pushes will obliterate you. Conclusion: never go colosi exept mindgames etc. 2. Adept/phoenix.Pros: abosolete drop defense with phoenix early game, awesome eco with early 3rd (on 4:00) may be difficult to defend though - pay attention. Cons: Due to terrans being able to adapt recently and ofc an hp nerf, adepts melt to even a mid game (starting from ~ 7:00) bio balls + mines. Conclusion: Open adept/phoenix to defend drops and tanks early in the game then switch to 2x robo colosi+blink asap. oh and some ppl play gateway styles i cant comment on that... PvZ.Not much to say here. You either go DT drop/ 7 adept pressure or oracle then charge/immo storm. Just practice that. Defend with sentries. Need lots of them as bane/hydra is out of hand these days. About Carrier turtling. I've been doing this for ages now and i wont recommend it. The thing is if you delay carriers to apply initial pressure with lets say adepts and don't do enough damage you will be destroyed with hydra timing, and if you rush carriers you gonna be flooded with ling/bane. Thanks for the answer. So going Stargate in PvT is the better option then? Problem for me ist that i am really bad with phoenixes and they mostly sit there rather useless. Also how many gates should you go for with 2-3 bases?
Kinda, I'm also in dia3 and everything works somewhat. I don't like playing phoenix adept but it's good.
What you can also do is go stargate but only use it to get 1-2 oracles. Meanwhile take a fast 3rd base and go into blink and follow it up with glaves or charge and mass gateways. This style has been somewhat popular in the korean pro scene after the adept nerf. The idea is that the terran won't build tanks against a stargate so blink will work out and the early 3rd gives you a strong midgame with mass gateway unit. Depening on what the terran does you can be aggressive or transition.
Another build i like is twilight than robo into a moderatly fast 3rd with charge and blink. If it's done before a tank push it works out well.
No idea about PvZ, that match up crushes my will to live.
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So in the current state of the game, if the terran keeps up the presssure on me, while getting quite big army of libs, and I am on ground army ( colossi , ht, stalker blink, zealot charge , sentry) I am just doomed?
I simply lose every single game that we reach the 200 vs 200 PvT , vs terran if they mix up libs on the composition.
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Heavy stalker + 4 colosi + storm force deals with lib-based armies quite well. The most important part is proper positioning (never letting terran to siege your base).
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So, ehm... As i see, this thread was kinda... dead as of late.
I know there are no protoss players left, but still want to ask how is your experience (preferable in masters+) in both PvZ and especially PvT. Because with overnerfed adepts SG openings seem so weak these days. All kinds of 2 base (with late 3rd) terran pushes that involve mines/tanks and or libs+bunkering pretty much shutdown any eco focused play from P. PvZ is pure cancer with Hydra/Bane-fest 24/7. You either FF like a god or lose horribly.
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On July 12 2017 19:27 insitelol wrote:
So, ehm... As i see, this thread was kinda... dead as of late.
I know there are no protoss players left, but still want to ask how is your experience (preferable in masters+) in both PvZ and especially PvT. Because with overnerfed adepts SG openings seem so weak these days. All kinds of 2 base (with late 3rd) terran pushes that involve mines/tanks and or libs+bunkering pretty much shutdown any eco focused play from P. PvZ is pure cancer with Hydra/Bane-fest 24/7. You either FF like a god or lose horribly.
I'm only Diamond, but I'll try to help you anyways:
Personally, I pretty much gave up on PvT when they nerfed the adept, so I'm now going for cheese every game (varying between double proxy robo, proxy stargate, 2 base glaive all-in and pylon rushes). Works out relatively well for me.
PvZ I open up with quick glaives and take a quick third while pusing with 7 gladepts. During this push I also get a templar archives for archons (I dont get storms since I'm not good at microing HTs). I then get 8 gates, a robo and charge. After going for a robo bay and double colossus production, I take my fourth base and get double forges. With my 4 Nexi I now chrono the upgrades and the colossi. If I scout corruptors/broodlords I go for double stargate voidrays/tempests in the late game. If I find an opportunity to push out and win during this time I do so ofc, often times you will dispatch an early Z attack and win the game off of this.
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On July 12 2017 19:27 insitelol wrote:
So, ehm... As i see, this thread was kinda... dead as of late.
I know there are no protoss players left, but still want to ask how is your experience (preferable in masters+) in both PvZ and especially PvT. Because with overnerfed adepts SG openings seem so weak these days. All kinds of 2 base (with late 3rd) terran pushes that involve mines/tanks and or libs+bunkering pretty much shutdown any eco focused play from P. PvZ is pure cancer with Hydra/Bane-fest 24/7. You either FF like a god or lose horribly.
as for me (masters 2 EU) :
PvT : I go for 2 base colossus double forge every game. I usually go up to 6 gates and a healthy unit count on 2 bases, while adapting my probe production to the level of commitment the T gives to his aggression. I proceed to expand, get a twilight council for blink then charge, and I add storm in the lategame. I always stop at 3 colossi and then get 1-2 immortals. It's a very solid build I feel, and the 2-2 and 3-3 timings are very strong. If I can't break him I add tempests. My winrate is okish but not outstanding (roughly 55%).
PvZ : I go for phoenix, which is unusual nowadays but works very well in my experience (it's my best mu by far, around 70% ; it has always been my best mu in every iteration and every meta though). I go up to 5-6 phoenix and harass with them while expanding (if they don't overcommit to defense you'll always get 10+ drones and some overlords) then add forge + twilight, then 2 robos. I then get immortals chargelots archons and storm as fast as possible. If they go BLs I transition to air or if I can I just kill them before they can transition. I use a lot of archons hallucinations to soak up banelings.
Overall my non-mirror experience has therefore been pretty pleasant. My PvP winrate is very bad on the other hand (~40% ish), I don't seem to understand this mu right now.
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Thanks a lot for the insight. I guess it's time to go back to robo tech in PvT.
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On July 14 2017 00:29 insitelol wrote:
Thanks a lot for the insight. I guess it's time to go back to robo tech in PvT.
some people seem to think that kind of build is autoloss vs tech lab openings, but I don't think that's the case. Check Stats vs ByuN on Honorgrounds to see how you can deal with it as long as you're not too greedy on the tech / probes.
vid
The build ByuN is doing on Honorgrounds is probably not what people think is the direct counter of robo openings but at our level pretty much nothing is going to be optimized so if you get enough units you should defend fine.
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thoughts on colossus buff (nerf?) anyone. I think hydra ling bane is easier to beat now but colossus is now weaker vs roaches. Perhaps roach hydra viper will be back?
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On July 14 2017 03:05 Obamarauder wrote:
thoughts on colossus buff (nerf?) anyone. I think hydra ling bane is easier to beat now but colossus is now weaker vs roaches. Perhaps roach hydra viper will be back?
You don't beat hydra ling bane with colo but with storm archon immortal chargelot, although yeah maybe the proposed buff could make colo a viable answer when you're 100% certain the Z will commit to the hydra ling bane timing ; most builds go double robo anyway, so you could have two colo to hold the timing, although you'd probably not have range which could be a problem. Overall imo it's an unecessary change which could very well make colossi overpowered vs T (marines will melt) and will probably not go through because I think the colossus is in an excellent state right now.
As for roach hydra viper, it'd certainly not be back since every P gets high numbers of immortals nowadays and those units melt roaches so fast no Z will commit to roaches. Ravager ling bane was a thing at some point, wonder why it's not played anymore.
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Austria24422 Posts
So my ladder experience the past few games has been about 50 zergs, about 90% of whom have all-inned me. How on earth do I scout what they're doing? They'll open standard hatch gas pool, third hatch at standard timing and just throw down a baneling nest, or get overlord drop. I open adept/SG. By the time the oracle gets to their base, they're already streaming units across and I'll have only one oracle out to defend, along with a few adepts. That scout is too late. The first 1-2 adepts can't scout anything because shade vision doesn't exist and I can't really suicide them.
How on earth do you figure out what zerg is doing before your front door gets baneling busted or there's lings already in your base?
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On August 02 2017 21:46 Olli wrote:
So my ladder experience the past few games has been about 50 zergs, about 90% of whom have all-inned me. How on earth do I scout what they're doing? They'll open standard hatch gas pool, third hatch at standard timing and just throw down a baneling nest, or get overlord drop. I open adept/SG. By the time the oracle gets to their base, they're already streaming units across and I'll have only one oracle out to defend, along with a few adepts. That scout is too late. The first 1-2 adepts can't scout anything because shade vision doesn't exist and I can't really suicide them.
How on earth do you figure out what zerg is doing before your front door gets baneling busted or there's lings already in your base?
They say you should scout with 1st adept (shading back while scouting their natural with the actual unit). The only thing you can rely on in identifing an all-in is the drone count (scouting gathered gas, 3rd timings) are only there to deceive you).
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Hey guys, I'm getting back into LotV after being low masters in HotS. At first I tried to use Disruptors but I always ended up losing because of bad disruptor micro. Does anyone have any general micro tips for them? I'm especially lost as to how to hotkey them to my army, especially when I want to go HT as well. Thanks 
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On August 02 2017 21:46 Olli wrote:
So my ladder experience the past few games has been about 50 zergs, about 90% of whom have all-inned me. How on earth do I scout what they're doing? They'll open standard hatch gas pool, third hatch at standard timing and just throw down a baneling nest, or get overlord drop. I open adept/SG. By the time the oracle gets to their base, they're already streaming units across and I'll have only one oracle out to defend, along with a few adepts. That scout is too late. The first 1-2 adepts can't scout anything because shade vision doesn't exist and I can't really suicide them.
How on earth do you figure out what zerg is doing before your front door gets baneling busted or there's lings already in your base?
your first adept scouts dronecount/eggs on natural.
if you dont see allin this early, then when stuff hits you should have 3 gatewayunits and an oracle. usually build msc after first oracle. put pylons wisely to spot for common dropspots.
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EPT
