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my patch TvP build:
gas
raxx
2nd gas
scv scout (for proxies)
factory
marine
orbital
2 scvs in each gas (4 total)
marine scouts in the opposite direction (for proxies)
scv scout arrives at toss natural
no nexus? ghost academy + techlab on raxx. put the other 2 scvs back in gas (6 total)
nexus? command center, no ghost academy.
stargate / shield battery? cyclone + ghost + SCVs on auto-repair. EMP the shield batteries. repair the cyclones non-stop. keep making ghosts until the rush is over.
stargate / shield battery / void-ray all-in? cyclone + ghost + turrets + 1 bunker at natural + SCVs on auto-repair. keep making ghosts until the rush is over.
haven't tried it on any GMs yet... just master league players. haven't actually died to the stargate rush, but still trying to figure out my follow-up.
I'm experimenting with mech follow-ups.
anyway... ghost / cyclone seems like the only way to "cleanly" stop super fast oracle. it feels like you could theoretically hold it with zero unit loses. you can save the ghosts using cloak, and cyclones are hard to crack when they're surrounded by repairing SCVs.
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On November 16 2017 07:41 SHODAN wrote:
my patch TvP build:
gas
raxx
2nd gas
scv scout (for proxies)
factory
marine
orbital
2 scvs in each gas (4 total)
marine scouts in the opposite direction (for proxies)
scv scout arrives at toss natural
no nexus? ghost academy + techlab on raxx. put the other 2 scvs back in gas (6 total)
nexus? command center, no ghost academy.
stargate / shield battery? cyclone + ghost + SCVs on auto-repair. EMP the shield batteries. repair the cyclones non-stop. keep making ghosts until the rush is over.
stargate / shield battery / void-ray all-in? cyclone + ghost + turrets + 1 bunker at natural + SCVs on auto-repair. keep making ghosts until the rush is over.
haven't tried it on any GMs yet... just master league players. haven't actually died to the stargate rush, but still trying to figure out my follow-up.
I'm experimenting with mech follow-ups.
anyway... ghost / cyclone seems like the only way to "cleanly" stop super fast oracle. it feels like you could theoretically hold it with zero unit loses. you can save the ghosts using cloak, and cyclones are hard to crack when they're surrounded by repairing SCVs.
I mean, if you just open 1 base it's not hard to hold at all, the struggle is to find a standard build that can reactively hold it. And the problem atm is that most of my opponents are using pretty suboptimal builds to try to kill a very refined response from me, so I'm winning but I dont feel like I'm really winning, if you know what I mean.
My opening has been
14 Depot
16 Rax (send this scv to scout when it's done)
16 Gas
19 Orbital, Reactor (constant marine production after), Command Center
@100min Supply Depot
@100g factory
*scv scout will arrive at natural, if protoss has no natural, build an engineering bay at their natural and stop making SCVs*
Bunker at natural (necessary if they rally their first gateway unit across the map), 2x Turret
Widow Mine then Tech Lab for Siege Tanks, here you can resume scv production safely.
here's a replay of me holding the proxy stargate into 3 gate all-in with it
http://drop.sc/replay/5726260
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On November 16 2017 09:37 Pursuit_ wrote:...
Special is adamant that FE into 1-1-1 is not a solid opening anymore. it is not possible to execute a "clean" defense vs oracles / shield battery.
125 for engineering bay
100 for bunker
200 for turrets
425 minerals wasted on stuff that has no long-term value. your 2nd orbital does not compensate for the minerals lost to static defense. you'll need more than 2 turrets if toss follows void rays after the first oracle.
where's your counter-attack potential? if you hold the attack, you have won nothing except the privilege to proceed into the mid-game.
factory expand is not the same as 1-base.
fast expand = greed
factory expand = safe
there's an old saying from wc3: whoever expands first, loses. that's how TvP feels to me right now.
remember those awkward months at the start of HotS when terrans were still trying to gasless expand in TvT? déjà vu
I want to play a style that theoretically allows for "clean" defense. this means, all your units should be able to out-micro your opponent's units.
marines can't out-micro oracles or stalkers. marines can't run away from stalkers or oracles. marines can't be repaired. marines can't be split up. you need to keep them in a pack of 5 or the oracle will kill you. you're praying your opponent fucks up.
ghosts can cloak out of bad situation with 1 click. ghosts force detection. marines don't force anything.
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Your build puts you very far behind against 19 nexus which is still very standard, and you have no real potential for counter damage with your slightly faster factory. Your wc3 analogy doesn't hold up because Protoss has the ability to expand safely just as much as they did pre-patch if not even more safely with new Stalker.
My build requires a super tight defense but when it holds I'm very far ahead. It has the potential to hold any stargate 1 base all-in while keeping me on better economy vs macro transitions out of proxy stargate and on even footing vs standard play. Yours keeps you on even footing vs 1 base all-in and allows them to transition out, worse economy vs stargate into macro and worse economy vs standard play and all you really get in exchange is a bit more consistency in not dieing to the 1 base all-in variation. The new chronoboost can do everything the old chronoboost could only better- it's actually a slight buff compared to the old one, so they can power economy even harder than before.
edit: Not saying my build is perfect by any means, if you look on the previous page I already talked about it's weaknesses. The matchup in early game is really hard atm. I'm just saying that I dont think opening 1 base is the solution. It puts you too far behind if they dont proxy and makes it a lot easier for them to tansition out when they do proxy.
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I dont know. A counter push with cyclone, ghost and maybe a viking can do some damage or force the protoss to build more units while you are focussing on getting more economy (or am I wrong)?
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On November 16 2017 16:24 bretfart wrote:
I dont know. A counter push with cyclone, ghost and maybe a viking can do some damage or force the protoss to build more units while you are focussing on getting more economy (or am I wrong)?
we can't afford a starport and ghost / cyclone, so our counter-attack options are limited to the ground.
we can safely kill the proxy stargate because cyclones are faster than every protoss ground unit (except stalkers, which have the same 4.13 movement speed).
ghosts are slightly slower than stalkers (3.94), but they can cloak to safety and EMP the obs as a last resort.
it forces P into robo tech. an observer, maybe 2 observers, and immortals. the obs will be vulnerable if toss attempts to jump on our ghosts.
a handful of cyclones can delay P's third base, especially on Ascension To Aiur where everything is more spread out.
cyclone / ghost can control the watch towers and the peripheral areas of the map. great for stopping warp prisms.
I also have in mind a 2-base mech all-in which Supernova was very fond of in HotS. Supernova would go up to 4 factories on 2 bases (x2 reactor, x2 techlab). lots of hellbats, tanks, and 2 ghosts.
factory expand / 1-base is not such a bad thing for a mech economy. it's not like mech vZ where we are relying on minerals/hellions.
EDIT:
maybe it does have some counter potential 
http://drop.sc/replay/5731833
http://drop.sc/replay/5733623
and as I wrote earlier, if I see a nexus, I just continue with 4 SCVs on gas, factory expand
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Spent about 2 hours playing just the protoss build and what to do, simple answer was the 2-1-1, bunker at the nat with a marine, 6 rines in the mineral line. you have stim to counter after the hold. turrets when you push out. it was very very easy. The problem is what comes next, if say toss decides that blind 2-1-1 is what we do, then they can transition to double immortal. thats where the build falls. its gonna be a hard few weeks boys. dont give up, the answers are out there... gotta get in the lab and find them.
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Hi guys,
I am EU master 2 Terran and I would like to get some tips to up master 1. I can reach 5080MMR and then I chain loose.
My best match-up is TvT and I often use this BO: http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/58821/ Is there other better BO ?
My worst match-up is TvP (win rate = 20%). I don't know how to harass and slowdown the protoss macro efficiently or denied his B3. Otherwise, how many medivac I have to build before start viking or liberator production ? What is a good timing to start to build ghost (in the case where protoss goes colossus into ht) ? Do I have to add 2 startports before ghost academy or vice versa ?
I play mecha in TvZ because play bio require to be very fast (macro and harrass in the same time, I am always outmacro at the end). I have a nice winrate with mecha (60%) but I have a lot of trouble to scout B3 zerg push like baneling bust @ 4'/5'. Is there a way to scout that with efficiency (timing to scout ? always reaper scout ? B2 scan to count the number of drones ?) ?
What is your standard and safe or efficient build order for each match-up?
What is your scout sequence strategy and associate decision making for each match-up.
TvT: I scout after first supply - 2 gas, I check if reactor on rax and go back home - 1 gas, I check amount of gas(gasfirst or rax gas), I check the expand and then I check if a marine goes out (~1'48), if so I can harass him with my repaer otherwise I stay at home
TvP: I scout with the 18th scv. I check if expand and then I try to hide my scv for a second scout @2'50 to check the tech (robot, stargate or twiligt)
TvZ: I scout with the 16th scv. I check if expand and then I check amount of gas but I dont know how to interprate this information. Then I go check the B3 timing but I don't know how to interprate this information as well. Any tips ?
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Alright so my mmr isn't any higher than yours but i'll try :>
Well better work on TvP than learn a new TvT at the same time  And most people go 1 rax expand so it's fine imo.
I have a lot of trouble to scout B3 zerg push like baneling bust @ 4'/5'. Is there a way to scout that with efficiency (timing to scout ? always reaper scout ? B2 scan to count the number of drones ?) ?
Several things you can do : keep the reaper alive and count drones at his natural around 3.30. If you lose the reaper before that you can scan, or build a safety bunker. If you're really suspicious, send a unit at 4.30 to check the front of your natural in areas where they might be morphing banes/have lots of lings.
What is your standard and safe or efficient build order for each match-up?
Well i still 211 TvZ so no help there for you :> and like i said your TvT build is fine, i go for fast double cyclone drop personally.
With the patch i'm not sure how good my opening is in TvP, but without pylon overcharge it's doing okay so far.
1 rax expand into double mine drop + liberator harass. While waiting for the medivac, first mine burrows at the front of my natural for stalkers, same for the second mine unless i scout a stargate. In that case it goes in my main mineral line.
Liberator after the medivac, followed by a viking to patrol for warp prism, then reactor. Depending on how good the protoss defense is, i can delay the drop and synchronize it with the liberator, or even send both on the same mineral line to burrow below the liberator.
I don't know how to harass and slowdown the protoss macro efficiently or denied his B3. Otherwise, how many medivac I have to build before start viking or liberator production ? What is a good timing to start to build ghost (in the case where protoss goes colossus into ht) ? Do I have to add 2 startports before ghost academy or vice versa ?
I build 2 medivacs on the reactor (3 total with the first medivac) then go full liberators.
Midgame i only remake medivacs if i lost some or if i'm dropping (so i have at least 4 with my army). I add 2 starports + liberator range once i reach 3 base saturation.Vikings only if theres more than 3 colossi, or when they get tempests.
I usually delay ghosts quite a bit, but they are a essential vs skytoss, otherwise your vikings get stormed.
Before that, spending all gas on liberators with range makes your army impossible to engage, the real tough part is getting into a siege position. Protoss that abuse blink stalkers when you're trying to move out are a pain, so things like xel naga towers, scanning for observers and sending marines to scout help tremendously preparing a push and finding a weak spot.
If they outright try to contain you with colossi stalker you can try a 3-4 medivac drop. It either forces them to attack into liberators, or go defend and allow you to move out with your army.
What is your scout sequence strategy and associate decision making for each match-up.
I scout with the 16th scv in every matchup.
TvZ : if i see hatch first i go back home. If i see pool first i use the reaper to defend and hide the scv somewhere near to scout again for fast roach/bane/evo.
TvP: If gate expand i go back home. If cyber before nexus i keep the scv hidden like in TvZ, and send the reaper to check for proxies. Then scv checks at 3.15 if they took their natural or not.
TvT: Because i open agressively what i scout doesn't change my gameplan too much so can't help there.
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Anyone happen to know ryung/innovations TvP mech opening build order? It looked something like a gas first reaper expand + fact with a reactor into 4-6 cyclones into another 2 facts + 3rd cc. I don't know the exact BO, hoping someone can help me out as gas first proxy fact 3-4 marine cyclone + pulling the boys gets boring quick.
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Several things you can do : keep the reaper alive and count drones at his natural around 3.30. If you lose the reaper before that you can scan, or build a safety bunker. If you're really suspicious, send a unit at 4.30 to check the front of your natural in areas where they might be morphing banes/have lots of lings.
Many thank Artik, that's very helpful.
I build 2 medivacs on the reactor (3 total with the first medivac) then go full liberators.
Midgame i only remake medivacs if i lost some or if i'm dropping (so i have at least 4 with my army). I add 2 starports + liberator range once i reach 3 base saturation.Vikings only if theres more than 3 colossi, or when they get tempests.
I tried that. That's very nice. But full medivac is better when protoss is only gate units ?
I tried the 211 vs protoss. This is very powerfull to denied B3. I send 2 medivac + 16 marines to B3 and as soon as possible 1 medivac with 1 widow mine + 6 marines to B1.
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I don't know about TvP being hard, it was always my worst matchup at 30-40% before, after 4.0 it skyrocketed to 70-something. While im not a high level player (master 3), im playing vs relatively same people i used to, so it still means my TvP got better.
I always try to play tempo styles that apply pressure and harass while I'm getting economy behind. I open rax + gas, no reactor nor reaper, just straight marines, factory asap and expo with 2nd gas while its building. Then i usually go to cloack banshee or if opponent is 1 base allining me I'm getting a cyclone first. Banshees vary in value, sometimes they are useless if opponent goes 19 nexus into 3 gate robo, sometimes they end the game. Its kinda like oracles for us. Then i proceed to bio, finishing my 2nd and 3rd rax when 2nd banshee is out. Then its just standard TvP (nr 4 and 5 raxes or 3rd CC, upgrades etc).
I don't mean to say "it is THE build right now", I just want to give some food for thought. Maybe someone comes up with better version.
But I honestly think banshees are the way to go.
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On November 30 2017 22:12 Athelas wrote:
I don't know about TvP being hard, it was always my worst matchup at 30-40% before, after 4.0 it skyrocketed to 70-something. While im not a high level player (master 3), im playing vs relatively same people i used to, so it still means my TvP got better.
I always try to play tempo styles that apply pressure and harass while I'm getting economy behind. I open rax + gas, no reactor nor reaper, just straight marines, factory asap and expo with 2nd gas while its building. Then i usually go to cloack banshee or if opponent is 1 base allining me I'm getting a cyclone first. Banshees vary in value, sometimes they are useless if opponent goes 19 nexus into 3 gate robo, sometimes they end the game. Its kinda like oracles for us. Then i proceed to bio, finishing my 2nd and 3rd rax when 2nd banshee is out. Then its just standard TvP (nr 4 and 5 raxes or 3rd CC, upgrades etc).
I don't mean to say "it is THE build right now", I just want to give some food for thought. Maybe someone comes up with better version.
But I honestly think banshees are the way to go.
Yeah vs toss Banshees can be pretty good but its more of a gimmick unit honestly, however; I would say going proxy banshee has a greater effect as once you get into masters people will just get an obs and stalkers out right away (since robo meta is popular) and will likely snipe your banshee as it gets to their mineral line unless you go for a 1base variation.
However it definitely has its merits if they cheese and it fails
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On November 30 2017 22:42 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2017 22:12 Athelas wrote:
I don't know about TvP being hard, it was always my worst matchup at 30-40% before, after 4.0 it skyrocketed to 70-something. While im not a high level player (master 3), im playing vs relatively same people i used to, so it still means my TvP got better.
I always try to play tempo styles that apply pressure and harass while I'm getting economy behind. I open rax + gas, no reactor nor reaper, just straight marines, factory asap and expo with 2nd gas while its building. Then i usually go to cloack banshee or if opponent is 1 base allining me I'm getting a cyclone first. Banshees vary in value, sometimes they are useless if opponent goes 19 nexus into 3 gate robo, sometimes they end the game. Its kinda like oracles for us. Then i proceed to bio, finishing my 2nd and 3rd rax when 2nd banshee is out. Then its just standard TvP (nr 4 and 5 raxes or 3rd CC, upgrades etc).
I don't mean to say "it is THE build right now", I just want to give some food for thought. Maybe someone comes up with better version.
But I honestly think banshees are the way to go. Yeah vs toss Banshees can be pretty good but its more of a gimmick unit honestly, however; I would say going proxy banshee has a greater effect as once you get into masters people will just get an obs and stalkers out right away (since robo meta is popular) and will likely snipe your banshee as it gets to their mineral line unless you go for a 1base variation. However it definitely has its merits if they cheese and it fails
As someone who never tried proxy banshees in TvP (or even just "normal" banshees...) I'm curious: when proxying your banshees, if you don't end the game right there, isn't the time it takes to bring the starport home just too much ? Or do you build a new one at home ? How do you handle the 2 minutes it'll take for you SP to get his ass home (which is a direct delay to medivac production) ?
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What's with players using mech in TvP and TvZ? Is bio not good or something?
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As someone who never tried proxy banshees in TvP (or even just "normal" banshees...) I'm curious: when proxying your banshees, if you don't end the game right there, isn't the time it takes to bring the starport home just too much ? Or do you build a new one at home ? How do you handle the 2 minutes it'll take for you SP to get his ass home (which is a direct delay to medivac production) ?
LoneYoShi, check the first 2017 WCS global finals game between Special and Stats. Special did a proxy startport into liberator. But you can adapt the build to make a banshee even if make liberator is good as well. And if you want to use banshee vs protoss, you can try to adapt the Innovation's 2 startports banshee clock/speed zerg build. I think it could work.
What's with players using mech in TvP and TvZ? Is bio not good or something?
Geokilla, I go mech vs zerg because bio is very hard to play (harass and macro in the same time while the macro zerg is very fast even if you harass him) Some tips, hellbats + tanks + 2/3 thors + vikings army is very strong, build PF from the 4th CC, build some turrets behind your PF to take the first damages and slow down ultralisk or corruptors/broodlors or swarm host, let one or two tanks to defend each PF which is not defend by your main army, don't forget the building upgrades. Ravens are very useful as well but I haven't the micro in huge fight to use them.
Play mech vs protoss is very hard because imo are the natural counter of mech units. Moreover chargelots are very strong vs tanks. And finally, I have lost many games vs protoss when I played mech vs them because they go skytoss when they saw I go mech. But what about the new raven capabilities ? If you realy want to play mech vs toss, you can try to add 3 or 4 ghosts to your army to disable protoss unit shield.
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I think mech is the way to go in TvZ - it defends well (except maybe super early roaches) gives you map presence and offensive initiative and if your hellions or harras kill drones, and/or forces units you've got a good chance at a free win - either by steamrolling them with a follow-up battlemech push, or a bit later, with an overwhelming economy advantage adding ghosts to supplement!
If you're on even ground or behind, mech is liable to be picked off, slowly losing its efficiency. When I'm in this situation, i feel like bio offers more potential to claw your way back
TvP - NFI atm tbh
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What do people normally do for TvT, if one likes to mech?
I've been getting burned by my stubborn refusal to build Starports (which is a me problem!), so I'm looking for ideas. Someone said something about a two base Tank/Viking, which sounds interesting to me. Do you guys have any lovely builds you'd be willing to share?
I feel like I'm pretty comfortable once I make it to mid game, but I'm just looking for openers.
Thanks in advance!
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I also feel like I'm lost in TvT, can't figure that one out. When I think i got it, then suddenly someone plays a build that just 100% counters mine.
I'm curently trying to reintroduce Ryung's build from HotS where you go Gas First, rush Raven, get a CC while its building, Start pumping tanks + viking + marines. Then add 2 factories, give them reactors, and with 4 tanks, around 16 marines, Raven, few vikings and 4 hellions with more rallying, you Push. In hots you would double seeker one tank and Try to bust - this patch you disarm them with Raven. The goal is to denh 3rd with that while taking yours. Proceed as mech would.
The problem is cyclone pushes. Easy to auto lose. You are safe from any tank pushes and banshees though. Early raven used to give more utility in defense, now its essentially supposed to gain energy before a push + detection.
It might seem like you are behind reaper expand player, but your 3rd cc goes down much quicker, equalizing things a bit.
Sometimes if i feel like it I just go banshees instead of raven. But people got really good at defending those.
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EPT
