Introduction Kabel asked me to start a thread on Teamliquid discussing Starbow strategies and after receiving Nazguls permission, I saw no reason not to. I think this thread could be a help for newer players with little or no BW experience, but it could also be beneficial for more experienced players as it allows them to share, discuss and fine-tune build orders and strategies. For now, I have listed some of my thoughts on Starbow strategies and how to think about the game in general. Eventually, I hope that other players will contribute as well in order to help us develop the Starbow metagame.
Everyone are welcome to ask questions as well. So I expect that we can merge strategy guides and "help me"-threads into one.
I think I have to discuss this part of the game as it seems that most players haven’t properly adjusted their build orders with the introduction of the macromechanics. Basically, you should view Terran’s Overcharge, Chronoboost and Inject as a replacement for extra infrastructure. If you manage them well, by constantly injecting your hatchery or overcharging your barracks, you will be able to cut down on the amount of your production infrastructure.
This means that if you get 2 quick Orbital Commands, then you should also not be getting 3 Barracks with 1 or two reactors as well (in the early game), because you will simply end up with excessive production facilities. Talking about Reactors, try to design your builds in such a way that you always use Overcharge on a reactored production facility as this give you a double boost.
Compared to Starcraft 2, there is a much larger incentive for Protoss to use Chronoboost on Gateways than on upgrades or Robo/Stargate units as CB'ing a gateway boosts production by 100%. This can often come in handy before a timing attack or some pressure plays. But often time it is a good idea to time your usage of Chrono-boost so you have enough energy (50) to Rift-home in case your attack doesn’t work out.
At the topic, of how and when you should use Scv-Calldown, I think too many terran players are still using it like a Mule. However, it is important that you time your scv-calldowns in relation to your overall build order and gameplan. Etc. if you plan to make a timing attack at the 10 minute mark, then you probably should not be calling down Scv’s at the 9minute mark. Instead, Scv’s should be called down when you plan to play defensively over the next couple of minutes.
Last topic, I want to discuss is when to get Orbitals/Nexus upgrade. In Sc2, the answer is almost always ASAP. However, in Starbow figuring out the optimal timings isn’t as obvious. The important thing is to time the upgrades in such a way that you don’t have excessive production capacity at any point while still using energy constantly.
As a general rule: If you get the upgrade in the early game, try to design your builds in such a way, that your supply blocked while your researching the Nexus upgrade/OC. Since you can’t build workers anyway while researching it, you might as well delay your pylon/supply depots and spend the 100 minerals elsewhere.
For those, who haven’t played BW and are new to Starbow, it may initially seem quite hard if you are unaware how the non Sc2-units works. Thus, below is a very short description of how the new Starbow/BW-units works.
Firebat: This unit is more tanky than its BW counterpart and I guess its comparable to a slower Hellion. This makes it quite good vs Speedlings and decent vs Zealots.
Maurauder: Compared to its Sc2-counterpart, the Sbow-version is slower, has lower range and weaker vs light units. On the other hand, it is cheaper and you can reactor it. Intuitively, that sounds broken, however, given the slower movement speed plus the fact that there are no mules in Starbow, it actually isn't as strong early game as one may think. Typically, against Dragoons you will need to have Stim before you can move out with them.
Reaper: The Starbow reaper is a bit of a mix between the WOL-Reaper and the HOTS-Reaper. It has more damage vs light, it isn't as fast as the HOTS reaper and it regenerates HP. The Reaper, can upgrade an ability that improves it in 3 ways: 1) Its HP is increased by 20, 2) Movement speed increased and 3) It can setup a bomb/Mine that explodes after 7 seconds. The latter is particularly good vs static defense.
Science Vessel: This unit has 3 abilities. 1) Irradiate, an ability that deals 190 damage to a targeted biological unit over 30 seconds and also does some splash to nearby units (very strong vs Mutalisks clumps). 2) Nerve Jammer, which reduces the damage from units within the “Nerve Jammer” by 75%, and 3) EMP.
Lurker: Strong vs units that doesn’t deal bonus damage to armored. Thus, mainly it is quite good vs Zealots, Marines, Speedlings and Hydralisks.
Medi: This unit can (obviously) heal. But it also has a Matrix ability which increases the HP of the targeted unit over 12 seconds. Further, it can Stim which increases its movement speed at a cost of 10 energy. It should be used as a support unit for bio, but may also have some potential in bio/mech situations as Matrix on Tanks can be quite strong. Viper: The Viper has its Abduct-ability from Sc2, but it is a bit nerfed since the range is only 7 compared to the 9 range of the Sc2-abduct. It also has Ensnare, which reduces the movement-and attack speed of enemy units. Hitting enemy unit with it, can, however be a bit challenging as its projectile-based.
Roach: The Starbow-Roach is quite different from its Sc2-counterpart. While it has no speedupgrade and only 3 range, it can research Tunneling Claws, which both increases its movement speed while burrowed but also reduces damage taken by 25%. However, it can only burrow for five seconds at a time. The burrow-speed makes it good at abusing the immobility of the opponents army, but also makes it more microable during battles. Smilarly to the Lurker it is weak when opponent has lots of anti-armored units (Dragoons, Tanks, Maurauder) in their composition. Mixing it with Hydras (and Lurkers) is therefore often beneficial.
Stalker: This unit is also very different from its Sc2-counterpart. It only costs 75/50, but it is much weaker and deals less damage to Armored and Medium. On the other hand, it is a bit faster and starts with Blink and highground vision. In terms of cost efficiency it is quite good vs Mutalisks, but in most other situations you want to use it as a harass/scouting-oriented unit.
Sentinel: This is the new unit unique to Starbow. It kinda works as a replacement for the Oracle, but it is different in a lot of ways. Unlike the Oracle, the Sentnel has a weak default attack, but it also has 3 new abilities. 1) Nullsphre, which is a trap that the Sentinel can set up around the map. Once a unit gets into range of the Nullsphre, a small ball is fired at the target, which deals a relatively small damage to a single target, but due to dealing splash-damage and the addition of a slow-effect, it can be quite strong if used correctly. You can also manually target fire and turn off autocast with the Nullsphre, which can be advantageous as it (when manually targeted) has a higher casting range. I think Nullsphre both has utility as a worker-harass ability, but also to create mapcontrol and improve defenders advantage (similarly to how the Spider Mine functions). 2) Its second ability is a detection-ability. But unlike the Oracles, ability, the Sentinel cannot move while using it, this makes it quite hard to use optimally. 3) At Fleet Bacon you can upgrade Temporal Field which reduces the movement- and attack speed of units within an area. Its a channeling ability, which means that the ability is cancelled if the Sentinel if killed or moves away.
Vulture: At a cost of only 75 minerals, the Vulture makes its Sc2-counterpart (the Hellion) seem useless. It is extremely strong against light units and still decent vs armored units. However, it can become even better by planting Spider mines. Great players are able to manually detonate the mines, which increases the range of the Spider Mines and also make it launch instantly. In Sc2 you rarely want to many Hellions with your mech army, however, the Vulture is simply superior in almost every way, which means that having lots of Vultures to support your Tanks is often advantageous.
Defiler: This unit has two abilities worth highlighting. 1) Plague, which deals AOE damage, but can’t actually kill the target (leaves the unit with 1 HP left) and Dark Swarm which reduces damage taken from nonsplash ranged units to 0. Both abilities are obviously strong, and the latter is very often used to break Siege lines.
I think the first time you play Starbow as an exBW player, you will probably feel that the BW builds aren’t nearly as good. However, after a couple of games you will probably begin to incorporate macromechanics, and they will be more effective. But that doesn’t mean that you have to use BW builds. In fact, I believe Starbow has many undiscovered builds orders which eventually will be discovered once Meta gets closer to being figured out.
As an example, let us look at how protoss played PvZ in BW: Forge expand into Corsairs into Templar tech (typically). It had little variation for protoss in the early game, and it has been one of the intentions of the Starbow team to give protoss more options. Let’s look at some of the differences (besides macromechanics relative to BW);
1) Research time of Legspeed has been reduced by 30 seconds. As slowlots are close to useless vs Speedhydras, but Speedlots are pretty good vs Speedhydras, this makes it a bit easier for protoss to surivive against Hydrarushes.
2) Rift, which costs 50 energy can teleport five units home. This can be used for Protoss to poke at the Zergs base. Kill a few drones, force the Queen to activate Enrage (preemptively), scout a bit, and then Rift home without losing all of the Zealots.
3) Stalkers starts with Blink, are a bit faster and has high-ground vision. This allows 1-2 Stalkers to easily scout the Zergs base in order to see what the zerg is up to.
As players begin to learn the game better, I expect that more and more players will begin to adjust their old BW builds to the new tools/options that are added in Starbow. Below, I have listed 3 non-BW builds that I am currently testing/using.
Given the differences relative to BW, I want to outline the build order I am currently testing/using in PvZ. It is by no means final, and will probably need to be fine-tuned as I play more games, however, I think the style has lots of potential. Below is the build-order:
• 9 pylon (place it so you can wall off your natural) • 11gate (the probe needs to scout after placing down the Gateway) • 1 Zealot only. Delay the second Zealot. • Build Nexus at 18/18 • Research Nexus upgrade • Start second pylon ASAP when you have 100 minerals • Send your 1st Zealot to scout/pressure the zerg. • Chrono out your gateway constantly. You can also use 1 Chronoboost on the Nexus. • When 2nd Nexus is finished, upgrade it ASAP. • When you have 200 minerals, gey a Cyber Core and an Assimilator shortly after. • Get twilight once Cybercore is done and you have the resources.
The key to this build is to constantly pressure with your Zealots and always have roughly 50 energy for a Rift home. Try to force the Zerg player to waste Enrages as he then will have less energy for injecting. Once your twilight is finished, I typically get legspeed ASAP. If you don’t know which tech the Zerg goes for, I always get a Stalker out to scout for his base and kill a drone or two. Lurker rushes are probably the biggest threat for you as you do not have the infrastructure ready for dealing with it. But I think it can be done if you react fast by getting out Robo and Dragoons (with range). Alternatively, one may consider getting Sentinels for its detection-ability to hold off the Lurker-rush.
If he is going for Hydra bust, a critical mass of Leglots is necessary. If instead, you scout a Spire, you will need to counter it with lots of Stalkers (but not too many as they are quite weak vs Hydras and Lurkers).
It is worth noting that this build is quite hard to execute properly, thus it may not be the best build order for the newer player. But I think for the protoss player with great mechanics that is looking for some variation, this type of gameplay can be quite fun. The advantage of the build lies in all the pressure you constantly put on the zerg player. He is simply never allowed to drone up and can’t take a 3rd for “free”.
Admittedly, my PvZ build is still a protégé and not completely finished yet (I would like other players to develop on top of it). But I think my TvP 1 rax expand is much easier to execute and almost always brings you in advantage against a Protoss player that uses a BW-build.
• 9 supply depot • 11 Barrack • After Barrack has finished, build Command Center • Build Geyser at 15 supply (before you do anything else) • Build 1 Marine • Cut Scv production at 18/19 • Start second Marine, and build 2nd supply depot • Research OC at 19/19 • Build Bunker after supply depot has finished in front of your natural • At 100 gas, start Factory production ASAP. • If opponent doesn’t do anything allin’ish, only get 3 Marines. • Get a tech lab on the barrack and give it to the Factory once it is finished. • It is important that you research Siege ASAP, and Overcharge out tank production constantly. • Meanwhile, rally workers to your natural. When your natural is finished, you will build one or two cycles of Scv’s before researching Orbital Command. • Try to constantly call down Scv’s (as you for the time being are in a defensive mode). • If opponent goes for quick Dragoon with range build, you can hold it off effectively with Siege Tanks while micro’ing behind your bunker. As a general rule: Have one SCV per Dragoon to repair the Bunker. • Once Siege tech is out, you will be safe against Dragoon pressure (which currently is the standard build in PvT)
The advantage of this build is that it actually feels easier to execute than a typical “factory before expand”- build. Further, it is very economical, but as a downside you have no way of pressuring a greedy protoss in the early game.
In terms of follow ups, I believe a 2 base-Starport opening is the best way to play TvP. Both Banshee’s and Dropships are superior to their BW counterparts. Alternatively, you can go for some type of 2 base timing-attack with 3 or 4 factories. Remember to let the barracks build the add-ons and always overcharge the Factory with the Reactor.
Currently a lot of zergs open 3 hatch before pool, which is safe against standard terran play. However, this build can punish a greedy zerg who delays his pool.
8 depot 9 rax @ rax 100% orbital + marine + depot @ orbital 100% overcharge your rax
At 2:50, your first marine should be out and if the zerg went hatch first, you'll still have plenty of time to start your bunker. You may need to send two SCVs on 4 player maps to figure out where the zerg is.
The hilarious part, is even if your SCV building the initial bunker gets sniped by drones, you can SCV calldown to the bunker and continue building without having to pull SCVs from your mineral line. You can also do the reverse, pull SCVs, and use calldown to reinforce your economy.
Around 4:00 you should have enough to plant your CC and complete a wall-off.
I think if you have trouble surviving against Terran 1base pressure builds while 1-gate expanding, my variation of the build will work pretty well. Below is my BO: • 9 Pylon • 11 Gate • 12 Geyser • After Gate is done, build Cyber Core • At 16/18 start a second Pylon. • When Cyber is done, research Range, and when you can afford it, a Dragoon. • Cut probes at 22/26 • When 400 mins (around 22/24 supply), build a Nexus • Build Dragoons constantly, and when you have 100 minerals, upgrade your Nexus. • When you have another 100 mins, start a pylon ASAP. • Once Nexus is done, chrono range once, and chrono Dragoons constantly. • Upgrade the Naturals nexus once It if finished. • Start attacking Bunkers w/ Dragoons (once range has finished). If opponent goes for a pressure/1 base timing attack, you should kite him. If he goes for a heavy vulture opening, you need to be more defensive and wall off your natural.
The advantage of this build is that you get a lot of Dragoons out very fast. Some players will almost think you are 2-gating if they have no prior experience with a protoss using macromechanics effectively. But it is worth noting that you are cutting probes for a while.
As a follow up, you can either go for the classic BW style where you add a Robo and get Observers/Warp Prism. Currently, I am testing Sentinel follow-ups, which so far seems quite good as it grants you A) Map control, B) a harass-threat and C) allows you to delay investing into the expensive Observer-tech since Sentinels have a “weak” detection ability.
I played quite a bit with bio builds and I definitely feel that there is potential. However, its biggest weakness is against heavy chargelots + HT’s in the midgame. While you can add in Firebats, they are a bit vulnerable if the opponent mixes in some Dragoons (as they deal 20 damage to Firebats). Thus, I believe that terran should attempt to mix in Vultures along with his bio army once he scouts the protoss player going for Chargelots. Besides being incredible strong against light units, Vultures also only cost minerals, which means you can afford quite a few Science Vesssels, which allows you EMP all the HT’s/Archons. This means that your midgame/late game composition mainly will consist of Maurauder, Medi, Vulture and Science Vessel, perhaps with a few Marines for AA.
12 hatch 11 pool 15 overlord 18 gas start queen + 4 lings when pool finishes constant drones, make a 2nd queen when you have the money lair with first 100 gas plan your queen energy so you can continuously cast nurturing swarm on your lair 2nd gas when you have 150 gas spire, constant nurturing swarm send a drone out to take third save larva around 32 supply
make sure to scout with an overseer if you don't know what your opponent's doing, vs a stargate/starport build adding some scourge is key. on most maps you can wait until he moves out with an army before making spines. you can follow up with anything but since you have a high gas/low mineral income and limited larva lurkers are usually the best choice.
Secure a third expansion with as few units as possible as the terran *should* be pushing trying to find weaknesses to exploit at this time. If the terran is not pushing, then use the lurkers to contain the terran and make his life as miserable as possible.
Rough Build (Assume building drones for most of the time) + Show Spoiler +
*Assumes Terran is fast expanding 10 OverLord 11/10 Drone (This will rally to the other abses and scout) ***as soon as you build the next drone after your ovy finishes, send a drone to your natural. It should have just enough for a hatch after a few seconds 12 Hatchery 11-12-13 Pool (I prefer 12. It seems to give just the right amount of minerals, and i have had games where the extra second of time for the lurkers to build = life or death) 12 gas (fully saturate asap)
@100% Complete; Build queen at natural (IT BETTER BE AT THE NATURAL) // Build 2 sets of Zerglings ****Inject, build creep tumor going to middle of map or towards opponent, then send it to your main (or whereever you are building your hydra den) ****Use as many zerglings as you want to hunt for scvs / proxy shenanigans around map, but be sure to have AT LEAST 1 ling at terran's front. THIS IS LIFE OR DEATH HERE. You need to know when he moves out. If it's too early, rush spines. 2-3 is often enough for early bio pushes. @100Gas: Build Lair (Possible Variant here) (Constant drones to natural. The 11 drones in your main are enough) (Constant injecting) @50% Lair Complete; Start hydralisk den @100%Lair Complete; Build second gas (full saturate) // Start Lurker Den @30%-50% Lurker Complete; Build 2-3 overlords, save larva @5 Larva, build 5 hydralisks
(You will have the minerals to take a third around this time, use your best judgement to determine if it is truly safe to do so. I personally REALLY do not like getting the extra queen here, I find it unnecessary and distracting from microing the 5 units that will keep you alive for ~5+ mins)
@100%LurkerDen Complete; morph 5 Lurkers. You should have JUST enough gas for 5-6 lurkers at this point and enough mins for a hatchery.
In Sbow, I find mutas to be really fun to mass and just kill everything with... but against any good terran science vessels exist, making mutas nearly extinct. However, if he IS going SKTerran style (No tanks), you NEED the scourge to kill the science vessels to protect your lurkers and to keep terran from getting out of control. If you choose to be greedy and get Viper Nest over Spire first and terran has science vessels, it's almost a BO loss. Abduct won't do anything since you have nothing that shoots up (your hydras don't have speed yet). If Terran DOES get tanks however, vipers + abduct can do A LOT of wonders vs tanks for much cheaper than mutas. Vs the 1-3 tanks a terran will have at this early point, simply abduct the tanks into your lurkers while trying not to get your viper killed. Also, the viper nest allows you to get your hive faster, which you need for adrenal, nydus(map dependant) and defilers (DO NOT !@#$ING FORGET ADRENAL GLANDS, THIS IS NOT SC2!)
5-6 Lurkerrs by the time Terran reaches you Viper Nest or Spire soon after Ling speed soemwhere in here Idk Third base w/ ~11+ on minerals & 3 on gas Double Evos w/ 1/1 Starting at aroudn the same time as your Hive Hive @ ~11-14mins
If you scout anything other than a fast CC (1 rax or cc first), the first 100gas turns into speed and you need to scout and try to assess the situation. Vs light harass such as reaver expo or vulture expo, lings and a spine should be enough. Proceed as planned, but slightly delayed. Vs heavy pressure,... you may need hydras, a second queen, a lot of spines, or spores (overseers). Play accordingly.
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT LOSE YOUR FIRST 5 LURKERS! They are the ONLY ground defense you have that can zone a bio ball short of a wall of spines (which offer no map presence. At least lurkers can threaten).
I've had many a game where i mismanaged my timings slightly, and my lurkers were finished... right after the bio ball was already inside my base -___-. Timings are super critical the first several minutes. (At least in Diamond+)
It is possible that your third will be delayed / denied. DON'T PANIC (yet much,..) Just place a Hatch in your main, drone up a bit, get ling speed, and fight for map control with lings and lurkers. You NEED a third b4 you can fully go into scourge , hive tech. If terran denies your third EVEN AFTER you get to hive tech, (you probably skipped upgrades to make it happen), you are all in on defilers. Make something happen.
This is the only 1 for now, its late. G2g2 bed. (Note, I Played this guy 3 times. The first 2 times i went viper nest vs his skterran and got rekt. The third time I LEARN!) http://drop.sc/371650
I don't really have much of a build order or guide for this as I've not used it enough (or at a high level) or perfected any aspect of my play. It is simply a replay showing Bio can be viable vs Mech
As is/was with Bio vs Mech in SC2, you really need to limit the amount of siege tanks that your opponent has, which is why I do a few pushes in the early stages of the game.
Then, later, the reason why Ghosts are so effective is because of their Shock ability which unsieges sieged siege tanks.
For anyone curious the major battles where the use of Ghosts are very affective come at 12:15, 18:30, and 19:55. The game ends shortly after at the 20:30 mark with us just talking for a bit.
11 rax (start producing marines) 15 cc gaz at ~3.45 min (in game timer) tech lab on rax ebay => +1 atk asap 2nd rax (reactor asap)
=== 1st variation
3rd rax (reactor asap) when 3rd rax is started, remove 2 scv from gaz at around 35 supply, get both oc (your raxs/reactors are building and can't spend your minerals in marines). when you start your 2nd reactor, put scv back on gaz marines range when stim is done chrono marines/medic production
push with 4 medics, 2 or 4 firebats and a crapton of marines. benchmark: 8.30 min, 70 supply & move out start factory & +1 bio armor get 2nd gaz & so on.
2nd variation
In this version you get 2 rax and faster tech instead. Start Factory between 6.45 and 7.15. You will need to cut a few Marines to afford this.
This build works best on maps with a narrow natural choke (Fighting Spirit, Texas), but is more unfavorable on maps like Neo Destination.
Build order 9 depot @nat 9 scout spawn closest to 3rd 11 rax @nat 15 CC 17 depot @main ramp 18-19 bunker wall off @nat 25-26 constant marine/scv 26-28 CC (in main) 30-31 depot (supply timing discontinued here) +2 rax when you get minerals (reactor one at a time) gas @30ish gas engy bay @100% +1 weapons TLab on one rax, @100% get stim, then barrel stabilizers constant marine/medic @100% CC make all 3 OC's Rush Port, +2 rax (reactor)
Other notes: When all OC's are done scan Zerg at Main, Nat, and 3rd (if necessary). I generally keep my army in front of my wall, helps to stop certain pushes and helps me grab my 3rd. When you do grab your 3rd, wall it off immediately. I usually do 2 depots+turret. Build 3rd CC closeish in the main, deny ovie scouts with a marine or two.
Reacting to what the opponent is doing Against pool first: Wall off with bunker and make +2 rax instead of 15CC. Then take expansion.
Against a baneling bust: I think this is probably the scariest of the pushes you'll encounter with this build. If you're worried about this, deny the ovie scout fast. I've played against one bane bust, and I lost against it, but my build was still a work in progress at the time. Should I encounter a bane bust and succeed i'll edit this. But I think this is how it would go down: Put down +2 bunkers spread out, re-wall (if broken), and get fast tanks.
Against 2 hatch Muta: Overcharge bio out, put up turrets ASAP, for 2 hatch I do 2-3 per base. Also, attacking them isn't a bad idea if you have a moderate amount of bio.
3 hatch openings: 3 hatch builds are semi countered by this build. Though be prepared for different 3 hatch builds. Some Zergs I've played against in SBow like to opt for a fast 3rd and use it as a 3 hatch build. 1 port, 1 factory, and 5 rax should be enough to soft counter 3 hatch builds. But... You can hard counter 3 hatch muta with 2 port vessel, and you can hard counter 3 hatch lurker with 2 factory tank. I like 2 factories for the splash (super good vs ling/bling, works good in late game), but 2 port vessel with the revert should be fine for late game.
Build order: - Ol at 10. - Hatch at 10. - Drone scout 10-13 ( depending map). - Third hatch in base ( macro hatch). - Pool at 13ish - Saturate 9-12 drones per min patch. - One gas. - Take exp away from main base ( farish expo). - Make a couple more drones into 2nd macro hatch. * don't overdrone.
Briefly after, a solid terran player will attack with a good sized bio army. Therefore, you should get Baneling Nest, and get out lots of of lings off your 4 main base hatches ( natural/main base/ macro hatches). Use your far base only for drones. Stay on one goas only and continue making lings and morph them into banes.
You should not be making Mutalisks with this build as you often will be caught on the wrong foot during the transition. Instead, you should use Scourges to deal with dropplay.
11 Overlord 11 spawning pool and scout (--> if against CC first allin/pressure???; not sure if it works, may need to scout a little earlier!) 13 natural hatchery 12 queen+2zerglings (upon spawning pool completion) 17 extractor --> use queen for inject + spawn a creep tumor in your main --> use your pair of zerglings to get rid of pesky scouts --> usually your opponent should only see that you went pool first, built a queen and are now starting a gas (which you could cancel) 16 overlord drones... 100%natural start a queen lair @100gas and use nurturing swarm on it as often as possible build a spine at the front take your second gas
version 1 (if you see Terran teching?): @100% lair start a spire (in your main where you spread creep before, keep it hidden!), nurture it, spend the rest of your energy on injects ~60% completetion stop building drones (make sure you have enough overlords) @100% spire start 4-6mutalisks ~8:00 you are at the opponents base with mutalisks --> transition how its needed/possible Replays + Show Spoiler +
On January 23 2014 10:54 Freeze967 wrote: Thanks for posting this! Hopefully you'll continue to add stuff. I'd love a section for Z <3
I hope it will come. Just haven't really been playing as much Z as P and T. Others are ofc welcome to contribute to their builds. At this point, I think its unfair to demand that any builds are extremely well-refined and works in all kinds of situations. So I will put all builds/strategies that I believe could either help new players or improve our gameunderstanding in the OP.
Secure a third expansion with as few units as possible as the terran *should* be pushing trying to find weaknesses to exploit at this time. If the terran is not pushing, then use the lurkers to contain the terran and make his life as miserable as possible.
Rough Build (Assume building drones for most of the time) + Show Spoiler +
*Assumes Terran is fast expanding 10 OverLord 11/10 Drone (This will rally to the other abses and scout) ***as soon as you build the next drone after your ovy finishes, send a drone to your natural. It should have just enough for a hatch after a few seconds 12 Hatchery 11-12-13 Pool (I prefer 12. It seems to give just the right amount of minerals, and i have had games where the extra second of time for the lurkers to build = life or death) 12 gas (fully saturate asap)
@100% Complete; Build queen at natural (IT BETTER BE AT THE NATURAL) // Build 2 sets of Zerglings ****Inject, build creep tumor going to middle of map or towards opponent, then send it to your main (or whereever you are building your hydra den) ****Use as many zerglings as you want to hunt for scvs / proxy shenanigans around map, but be sure to have AT LEAST 1 ling at terran's front. THIS IS LIFE OR DEATH HERE. You need to know when he moves out. If it's too early, rush spines. 2-3 is often enough for early bio pushes. @100Gas: Build Lair (Possible Variant here) (Constant drones to natural. The 11 drones in your main are enough) (Constant injecting) @50% Lair Complete; Start hydralisk den @100%Lair Complete; Build second gas (full saturate) // Start Lurker Den @30%-50% Lurker Complete; Build 2-3 overlords, save larva @5 Larva, build 5 hydralisks
(You will have the minerals to take a third around this time, use your best judgement to determine if it is truly safe to do so. I personally REALLY do not like getting the extra queen here, I find it unnecessary and distracting from microing the 5 units that will keep you alive for ~5+ mins)
@100%LurkerDen Complete; morph 5 Lurkers. You should have JUST enough gas for 5-6 lurkers at this point and enough mins for a hatchery.
In Sbow, I find mutas to be really fun to mass and just kill everything with... but against any good terran science vessels exist, making mutas nearly extinct. However, if he IS going SKTerran style (No tanks), you NEED the scourge to kill the science vessels to protect your lurkers and to keep terran from getting out of control. If you choose to be greedy and get Viper Nest over Spire first and terran has science vessels, it's almost a BO loss. Abduct won't do anything since you have nothing that shoots up (your hydras don't have speed yet). If Terran DOES get tanks however, vipers + abduct can do A LOT of wonders vs tanks for much cheaper than mutas. Vs the 1-3 tanks a terran will have at this early point, simply abduct the tanks into your lurkers while trying not to get your viper killed. Also, the viper nest allows you to get your hive faster, which you need for adrenal, nydus(map dependant) and defilers (DO NOT !@#$ING FORGET ADRENAL GLANDS, THIS IS NOT SC2!)
5-6 Lurkerrs by the time Terran reaches you Viper Nest or Spire soon after Ling speed soemwhere in here Idk Third base w/ ~11+ on minerals & 3 on gas Double Evos w/ 1/1 Starting at aroudn the same time as your Hive Hive @ ~11-14mins
If you scout anything other than a fast CC (1 rax or cc first), the first 100gas turns into speed and you need to scout and try to assess the situation. Vs light harass such as reaver expo or vulture expo, lings and a spine should be enough. Proceed as planned, but slightly delayed. Vs heavy pressure,... you may need hydras, a second queen, a lot of spines, or spores (overseers). Play accordingly.
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT LOSE YOUR FIRST 5 LURKERS! They are the ONLY ground defense you have that can zone a bio ball short of a wall of spines (which offer no map presence. At least lurkers can threaten).
I've had many a game where i mismanaged my timings slightly, and my lurkers were finished... right after the bio ball was already inside my base -___-. Timings are super critical the first several minutes. (At least in Diamond+)
It is possible that your third will be delayed / denied. DON'T PANIC (yet much,..) Just place a Hatch in your main, drone up a bit, get ling speed, and fight for map control with lings and lurkers. You NEED a third b4 you can fully go into scourge , hive tech. If terran denies your third EVEN AFTER you get to hive tech, (you probably skipped upgrades to make it happen), you are all in on defilers. Make something happen.
This is the only 1 for now, its late. G2g2 bed. (Note, I Played this guy 3 times. The first 2 times i went viper nest vs his skterran and got rekt. The third time I LEARN!) http://drop.sc/371650
Glhf: LIVE FOR THE SWARM! I need to get on EU so i can play w/ Hider and find more holes in the build to fix Also my ZvP is terribad.
Shoutout to the people who play in starbow cups and share their replays. This is the most interesting way to have the game go somewhere, let other people see what you're doing and why, and how it works. So yeah, you're awesome. Also most people did it in ESL cups so most people are awesome, thanks
I would really like to see people try to make zergling / baneling / viper work. The ensnare ability would be the key here. It would work a bit like bling/infestor from SC2, since ensnare works a bit like fungal. This would probably only work vs bio though. Maybe opening 2 hatch muta and then transition into bling/viper instead of the less mobile lurker composition.
I have yet to find an effective build order for this, but hopefully someone better than me can develop a build based off of this idea.
ok, a little ZvT rush I have been working around with. Would like some comments!
11 Overlord 11 spawning pool and scout (--> if against CC first allin/pressure???; not sure if it works, may need to scout a little earlier!) 13 natural hatchery 12 queen+2zerglings (upon spawning pool completion) 17 extractor --> use queen for inject + spawn a creep tumor in your main --> use your pair of zerglings to get rid of pesky scouts --> usually your opponent should only see that you went pool first, built a queen and are now starting a gas (which you could cancel) 16 overlord drones... 100%natural start a queen lair @100gas and use nurturing swarm on it as often as possible build a spine at the front take your second gas
version 1 (if you see Terran teching?): @100% lair start a spire (in your main where you spread creep before, keep it hidden!), nurture it, spend the rest of your energy on injects ~60% completetion stop building drones (make sure you have enough overlords) @100% spire start 4-6mutalisks ~8:00 you are at the opponents base with mutalisks --> transition how its needed/possible http://drop.sc/371765
version 2 (if you see Terran going for 2+barracks?): start a hydralisk den (in your main where you spread creep before, keep it hidden!) @100% lair morph into lurker den, nurture it, build ~4-5 hydralisks, start zergling speed ~8:30 hit the opponent with 4-5lurker/+as many speedlings as you can get http://drop.sc/371764 http://drop.sc/371766
Edit: replays; though as Piy points out, I had some lag issues, which may or may not have influenced the games against him
12 hatch 11 pool 15 overlord 18 gas start queen + 4 lings when pool finishes constant drones, make a 2nd queen when you have the money lair with first 100 gas plan your queen energy so you can continuously cast nurturing swarm on your lair 2nd gas when you have 150 gas spire, constant nurturing swarm send a drone out to take third save larva around 32 supply
make sure to scout with an overseer if you don't know what your opponent's doing, vs a stargate/starport build adding some scourge is key. on most maps you can wait until he moves out with an army before making spines. you can follow up with anything but since you have a high gas/low mineral income and limited larva lurkers are usually the best choice.
Btw I add all of your guides if you attach replays (mainly thinking of you jay ). I am the only one who is allowed to (temporarily) not have replays for guides.
11 rax (start producing marines) 15 cc gaz at ~3.45 min (in game timer) tech lab on rax ebay => +1 atk asap 2nd rax (reactor asap)
=== 1st variation
3rd rax (reactor asap) when 3rd rax is started, remove 2 scv from gaz at around 35 supply, get both oc (your raxs/reactors are building and can't spend your minerals in marines). when you start your 2nd reactor, put scv back on gaz marines range when stim is done chrono marines/medic production
push with 4 medics, 2 or 4 firebats and a crapton of marines. benchmark: 8.30 min, 70 supply & move out start factory & +1 bio armor get 2nd gaz & so on.
2 rax fast tech variant: ========== pretty much the same opening but 2 rax (obv) scvs always mine gaz factory starts between 6.45 (very fast tech, will cut marines) and 7.15
Here is a game where I use Bio (with ghosts) to combat Mech in TvT.
I don't really have much of a build order or guide for this as I've not used it enough (or at a high level) or perfected any aspect of my play. It is simply a replay showing Bio can be viable vs Mech
As is/was with Bio vs Mech in SC2, you really need to limit the amount of siege tanks that your opponent has, which is why I do a few pushes in the early stages of the game.
Then, later, the reason why Ghosts are so effective is because of their Shock ability which unsieges sieged siege tanks.
For anyone curious the major battles where the use of Ghosts are very affective come at 12:15, 18:30, and 19:55. The game ends shortly after at the 20:30 mark with us just talking for a bit.
Hey thanks for the posts guys. Everything should be added to OP now. Btw if anyone had some type of cool ZvP build, I would love to try it. Currently, I am struggling a bit in that matchup.
I see a lot of players trying to answer a 1-gate expo or a FFE with a fast third. This can be hard to defend and may not be right for Starbow. You need a bit more resources on infrastructure because of queens and the economy is not 100% BW. Having more workers per base here is not as bad as in BW although it is quite similar. I think 2 base hydra pressure, with a third behind it or the same philosophy for muta/scourge is better to start with fro new players than the auto-third once you scout a fast nexus.
I saw Idra try to make a fast third work vs TT1 in ZvP. He got destroyed a lot of games, but I did not watch all. Maybe he figured it out. Point of reference: http://www.twitch.tv/idrajit/b/497596650
On January 26 2014 14:15 Clbull wrote: I wonder how long it will be until we see a full-fledged Starbow forum.
That would be cool, but is the game that even big enough yet? So far I don't see that many people interested in the game anymore, even though I would love for for new people to still join in.
Re tagged this to [D] for now. I don't think there will be a full on Starbow forum because to be honest it's still fairly limited, what do you think of race specific threads like the sc2 ones? Is anyone here willing to maintain them?
I think the hard part about bio is to figure out build orders and transitions. Maurauder is so weak against Chargelots and Marines are so weak against AOE. On the other hand, when you get your composition consisting of SV's, Maurauders, a few Marines and Vultures, nothing really stops you as long as your macro is strong and unlike mech, your a lot more mobile.
But IMO it is something that needs to be kinda figured out, because there are a lot of deadly timings that will kill an unexperienced bio player in TvP.
On January 26 2014 21:07 Teoita wrote: Re tagged this to [D] for now. I don't think there will be a full on Starbow forum because to be honest it's still fairly limited, what do you think of race specific threads like the sc2 ones? Is anyone here willing to maintain them?
I'd be willing to make a Protoss one and maintain it. I might need a bit of a hand in terms of quality control as I am thus far pretty terrible at Starbow!
I don't think we'd have any blue posters/badass op's for starbow like we do for sc2 for a while yet. As long as you can keep a reasonable OP with a few faq's and maybe a couple of bo's, that'd be fine.
The Jay's TvZ build should be ZvT, as it is written from a Zerg perspective. As of now, some zerg players might not notice it and not use the build. Just a small little fix, thanks though!
On January 27 2014 02:25 Teoita wrote: I don't think we'd have any blue posters/badass op's for starbow like we do for sc2 for a while yet. As long as you can keep a reasonable OP with a few faq's and maybe a couple of bo's, that'd be fine.
I am trying to figure out a format that isn't unwieldy.
I think a 'general' Starbow strategy thread, that explains the economy differences and the different behaviours of units etc, changes to armour etc.
Then have racial-specific threads, that link to that, but are primarily dealing with build orders and those kind of discussions?
As someone who has dived into this mod without enough reading, despite vague knowledge of Brood War I was getting hammered hardcore by the different flow of the economy. It's great, but it took me quite a while to really get a hold of things because there's not really a central point devoted to race-specific builds. At least the anti-fans complaining that Starbow is overhyped have ceased to clutter up the big thread at least
On January 27 2014 02:25 Teoita wrote: I don't think we'd have any blue posters/badass op's for starbow like we do for sc2 for a while yet. As long as you can keep a reasonable OP with a few faq's and maybe a couple of bo's, that'd be fine.
I am trying to figure out a format that isn't unwieldy.
I think a 'general' Starbow strategy thread, that explains the economy differences and the different behaviours of units etc, changes to armour etc.
Then have racial-specific threads, that link to that, but are primarily dealing with build orders and those kind of discussions?
As someone who has dived into this mod without enough reading, despite vague knowledge of Brood War I was getting hammered hardcore by the different flow of the economy. It's great, but it took me quite a while to really get a hold of things because there's not really a central point devoted to race-specific builds. At least the anti-fans complaining that Starbow is overhyped have ceased to clutter up the big thread at least
The most important part will be linking everything to the mega-starbow thread. That way it is easily navigable and confusion can be easily cleared up.
Yeah for sure. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in interest in watching Starbow, and people who are actually regularly playing it atm. Myself and a few of the disillusioned NI players have pretty much actually switched to it, so I have a vested interest in getting people to play it
I don't mind having a starbow thread in the sc2 strategy forum honestly (and i'm the one that keeps this place in a semblance of order). It's also probably a bit more visible than Starbow's site, at least for now.
On January 27 2014 03:06 Mensol wrote: Best TvZ opening ever: 14cc.
Been playing a bit with this vs 1rax gasless expo w/ bio follow up, and after talking a bit with Dirty (aka Foxxan), I have some thoughts on the build.
- 14CC lines up really well with a 2 rax (1 techlab, 1 reactor) followup. 1rax expand feels more ackward (which means you get stuff out a bit later). - 14CC is probably safe if you build it on the high-ground and scv-scout. - The counter to 14CC, 1techlab, 1 reactor follow up is hatch, hatch, pool --> lots of banelings (which kills the 8-8:30minute stim timing attack). - Dirty argued though that you the terran player should scout the doublehatch opening and react by delaying gas and going for heavy marine pressure out of 3 quick barracks.
Overall, though, I still think more pressure oriented builds (Reaper/Vulture's) are better. I think if zerg scouts the 14cc he should be aware that terrans follow-up options generally come later (esp since Stim takes a bit too long too research). While the zerg doesn't have to go doublehatch before pool, I think he can still defend a quick 3rd on a good drone count with a good bling sized army (instead of rushing to Mutalisks).
On January 26 2014 21:07 Teoita wrote: Re tagged this to [D] for now. I don't think there will be a full on Starbow forum because to be honest it's still fairly limited, what do you think of race specific threads like the sc2 ones? Is anyone here willing to maintain them?
I'd be willing to make a Protoss one and maintain it. I might need a bit of a hand in terms of quality control as I am thus far pretty terrible at Starbow!
I think (for now) it would be great if you made a protoss subsection that I could put into my OP.
Maybe the builds can be organized into a PvX, TvX, ZvX instead of just the order they were posted in the thread? It's make more sense when reading it. Otherwise it's cool how many build we have already.
On January 27 2014 04:42 Freeze967 wrote: Maybe the builds can be organized into a PvX, TvX, ZvX instead of just the order they were posted in the thread? It's make more sense when reading it. Otherwise it's cool how many build we have already.
I repost this here from the starbow thread, as I think this Thread didn't exist when I made the guide. "How to tech to defilers", check it out:+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that protoss has a bit of disadvantage in terms of new strats because its like 90% BW . While Z and T has SC2 units that can be used or mixed early on (roach, marauders, reapers , planetary, queen) and on the other hand. P significant difference from broodwar is only the chronoboost. Stalkers are irrelevant since you need TC for that and kinda dies so fast. (this is not balance whine, just an observation) ,
On January 27 2014 10:17 shin_toss wrote: I feel that protoss has a bit of disadvantage in terms of new strats because its like 90% BW . While Z and T has SC2 units that can be used or mixed early on (roach, marauders, reapers , planetary, queen) and on the other hand. P significant difference from broodwar is only the chronoboost. Stalkers are irrelevant since you need TC for that and kinda dies so fast. (this is not balance whine, just an observation) ,
Well I can tell you this: I think we almost gave protoss too many new options - especially vs zerg. I can already see like 10+ different builds/timings in PvZ being (kinda) viable compared to BW where toss almost always did Forge-expand into Corsair.
I've had some TvT and TvZ success with a 2-rax reapers.
You can get two rax with tech labs without cutting SCVs or anything, along with an OC; then you can just produce them in a continuous stream, whilst banking minerals to expand. There's enough gas to get reaper training, too. Micro'd reapers do very well against anything that can be thrown at them; marines, marauders, and vultures can be whittled down and killed, or if he splits his army you can just bumrush one group with your reaper ball. Against zerg, queens must be dodged but they don't have limitless energy, and you can often snatch up a drone kill or two. And of course, lings are not too hard to micro against either.
Once elite reaper training kicks in, micro gets even easier and you can score kills on defensive structures, depots, and addons.
Even if your opponent secures his base, having a pack of 4-5 bomb-throwing reapers is really helpful for scouting, denying expansions, and otherwise keeping your enemy on his toes whilst you transition to a regular army.
On January 27 2014 18:51 Tracil wrote: I've had some TvT and TvZ success with a 2-rax reapers.
You can get two rax with tech labs without cutting SCVs or anything, along with an OC; then you can just produce them in a continuous stream, whilst banking minerals to expand. There's enough gas to get reaper training, too. Micro'd reapers do very well against anything that can be thrown at them; marines, marauders, and vultures can be whittled down and killed, or if he splits his army you can just bumrush one group with your reaper ball. Against zerg, queens must be dodged but they don't have limitless energy, and you can often snatch up a drone kill or two. And of course, lings are not too hard to micro against either.
Once elite reaper training kicks in, micro gets even easier and you can score kills on defensive structures, depots, and addons.
Even if your opponent secures his base, having a pack of 4-5 bomb-throwing reapers is really helpful for scouting, denying expansions, and otherwise keeping your enemy on his toes whilst you transition to a regular army.
Yeh 1base Orbital command with Reaper production is really strong if opponent doesn't go quick Hydras.
On January 27 2014 07:59 KDot2 wrote: I have no idea what to do in ZvZ and I never see anyone play or discuss it
let me know if anyone has a nice build or style for ZvZ
im not a very good player myself but i think i have the proper zvz mindset for StarBow (haven't lost a single ZvZ yet)
the build i have been most successful with is 10pool->1hatch muta 10pool is like bw's 9pool except you don't sacrifice that much time before lings come out and get your economy significantly stronger. It's because initial supply cap in StarBow is 10 instead of 9.
most of my wins were simply based on making zerglings and killing my opponent's natural hatch (and that was against 11-12 pools). people get way too greedy thinking it's sc2 and they can't handle the pressure.
i go 1hatch muta because it follows up nicely after 10pool with your earlier gas and pool. i sometimes go 11pool (gas trick) or actually take my natural before a-moving mutas into enemy but the initial idea is here: early pool->punish greedy opponents->get mutas asap
Everytime I go mutas my opponent seems to counter it by going spore crawlers and then transitioning to mutas. Am I not being aggresive enough with my mutas? Or, I guess I should be making more lings in response to spore crawlers.
Everytime I go mutas in ZvZ my opponent seems to counter it by going spore crawlers and then transitioning to mutas. Am I not being aggresive enough with my mutas? Or, I guess I should be making more lings in response to spore crawlers?
On January 29 2014 01:39 fmod wrote: Everytime I go mutas in ZvZ my opponent seems to counter it by going spore crawlers and then transitioning to mutas. Am I not being aggresive enough with my mutas? Or, I guess I should be making more lings in response to spore crawlers?
Sorry for double post here.
If you have mutas first, how does he ever get more mutas then you? Don't sacrifice your economy to rush to them.
Favorable on maps with a narrow natural choke, i.e. Fighting Spirit Texas
Unfavorable on maps like Neo Destination
9 depot @nat 9 scout spawn closest to 3rd 11 rax @nat 15 CC 17 depot @main ramp 18-19 bunker wall off @nat 25-26 constant marine/scv 26-28 CC (in main) 30-31 depot (supply timing discontinued here) +2 rax when you get minerals (reactor one at a time) gas @30ish gas engy bay @100% +1 weapons TLab on one rax, @100% get stim, then barrel stabilizers constant marine/medic @100% CC make all 3 OC's Rush Port, +2 rax (reactor)
Other notes: When all OC's are done scan Zerg at Main, Nat, and 3rd (if necessary). I generally keep my army in front of my wall, helps to stop certain pushes and helps me grab my 3rd. When you do grab your 3rd, wall it off immediately. I usually do 2 depots+turret. Build 3rd CC closeish in the main, deny ovie scouts with a marine or two.
Transitions Pool first If you don't scout hatch first, wall off with bunker and make +2 rax instead of 15CC. Then take expansion.
Bane bust I think this is probably the scariest of the pushes you'll encounter with this build. If you're worried about this, deny the ovie scout fast. I've played against one bane bust, and I lost against it, but my build was still a work in progress at the time. Should I encounter a bane bust and succeed i'll edit this. But I think this is how it would go down...
Put down +2 bunkers spread out, re-wall (if broken), and get fast tanks.
2 Hatch muta Overcharge bio out, put up turrets ASAP, for 2 hatch I do 2-3 per base. Also, attacking them isn't a bad idea if you have a moderate amount of bio.
3 Hatch 3 hatch builds are semi countered by this build. Though be prepared for different 3 hatch builds. Some Zergs I've played against in SBow like to opt for a fast 3rd and use it as a 3 hatch build. 1 port, 1 factory, and 5 rax should be enough to soft counter 3 hatch builds. But... You can hard counter 3 hatch muta with 2 port vessel, and you can hard counter 3 hatch lurker with 2 factory tank. I like 2 factories for the splash (super good vs ling/bling, works good in late game), but 2 port vessel with the revert should be fine for late game.
Game: Don't have a good game to share right now. I'll edit post when I get a game to show.
I'm actually having a lot more success with your PvZ 1 gate expand than I was with my approximation of the standard BW FFE/Sair opener. Pretty cool opener, lets you put on some pressure too depending on what you see your opponent doing.
It's pretty scary how many Zealots you can crank out if you hit chronos non-stop.
On February 07 2014 00:44 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm actually having a lot more success with your PvZ 1 gate expand than I was with my approximation of the standard BW FFE/Sair opener. Pretty cool opener, lets you put on some pressure too depending on what you see your opponent doing.
It's pretty scary how many Zealots you can crank out if you hit chronos non-stop.
Yeh I am not sure why more protosses haven't experienced more with 1gate openers. Relative to BW, it is a lot safer (if properly executed) and IMO more fun than forgeexpand.
On February 07 2014 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote: Are there certain rules of thumb regarding expansion timings from the 3rd onwards in PvT? My eco management is pretty horrible atm
General rule is always be ahead one expansion versus the Terran. So if he's on 2base, make sure you have 3base, etc.
On February 07 2014 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote: Are there certain rules of thumb regarding expansion timings from the 3rd onwards in PvT? My eco management is pretty horrible atm
I think against someone that fast expands (either CC first or gasless expansion), you can take a quick 3rd on 1 gateway (+1 Robo or 1 Stargate).
On February 07 2014 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote: Are there certain rules of thumb regarding expansion timings from the 3rd onwards in PvT? My eco management is pretty horrible atm
If you see the Terran taking an early 3rd (good signs are a low factory count, very few Vultures and more Tanks, or obviously seeing the CC being built) then you can take your 4th. On a 4 player map it's best to take another natural as your 4th, then you can build Gateways in that main and take that main as your 5th whenever you want.
I think in BW you would often see protoss take their 5th right after they have secured their 4th which would give them a 5base to 3base lead.
That's probably not nearly as important in Starbow as the worker income differnece is slightly different. BW is something like this; 1/0.5/0.4 (1st worker income = 100%. 2nd worker on mineral path = 50%. 3rd worker = 40%).
Sbow is more like this: 1/0.63/0.23, which has two implicaitons;
1) A terran player on 3 bases (with lots of scv's) has a slightly lower income than in BW (but still higher than in Sc2) 2) As a protoss (or the mobile race in general) you shuld focus on avoiding 3-workers per mineral path and try to just get enough bases so you have 2 workers per mineral path. That can often times be done with 4-base income, which makes taking a quick 5th not nearly as rewarding (still benefical though if you can manage it).
FYI, Sc2 (as I remember it) works like this: 1/0.95/0.1
I'll contribute the build I use. I don't know what other zeros are doing vs T caus I've never watched another Zerg. Ol at 10. Hatch at 10. Drone scout 10-13 ( depending map). Third hatch in base ( macro hatch). Pool at 13ish Saturate 9-12 drones per min patch. One gas. Take exp away from main base ( farish expo). Make a couple more drones into 2nd macro hatch. * don't overdrone. A good Terran is attacking very soon with a lot of shit. Bane nest. Mass lings off your 4 main base hatches ( natural/main base/ macro hatches). Use your far base only for drones. Still only one gas. Still only making lings. Morph banes. It's now mid game do w/e u think is best.
On February 08 2014 03:57 tehredbanditt wrote: I'll contribute the build I use. I don't know what other zeros are doing vs T caus I've never watched another Zerg. Ol at 10. Hatch at 10. Drone scout 10-13 ( depending map). Third hatch in base ( macro hatch). Pool at 13ish Saturate 9-12 drones per min patch. One gas. Take exp away from main base ( farish expo). Make a couple more drones into 2nd macro hatch. * don't overdrone. A good Terran is attacking very soon with a lot of !@#$%^&*. Bane nest. Mass lings off your 4 main base hatches ( natural/main base/ macro hatches). Use your far base only for drones. Still only one gas. Still only making lings. Morph banes. It's now mid game do w/e u think is best.
On February 08 2014 03:57 tehredbanditt wrote: I'll contribute the build I use. I don't know what other zeros are doing vs T caus I've never watched another Zerg. Ol at 10. Hatch at 10. Drone scout 10-13 ( depending map). Third hatch in base ( macro hatch). Pool at 13ish Saturate 9-12 drones per min patch. One gas. Take exp away from main base ( farish expo). Make a couple more drones into 2nd macro hatch. * don't overdrone. A good Terran is attacking very soon with a lot of !@#$%^&*. Bane nest. Mass lings off your 4 main base hatches ( natural/main base/ macro hatches). Use your far base only for drones. Still only one gas. Still only making lings. Morph banes. It's now mid game do w/e u think is best.
Would you mind sharing a replay or two?
Sure. Want to meet on battle.net? Tehredbandit is my handle and if I'm on you will see me in the starbow chat room. Just send me a message. edit: I'm completly lost on ZVP though. So if you have any ideas about that MU I'd love to head about them/see some reps.
On February 08 2014 03:57 tehredbanditt wrote: I'll contribute the build I use. I don't know what other zeros are doing vs T caus I've never watched another Zerg. Ol at 10. Hatch at 10. Drone scout 10-13 ( depending map). Third hatch in base ( macro hatch). Pool at 13ish Saturate 9-12 drones per min patch. One gas. Take exp away from main base ( farish expo). Make a couple more drones into 2nd macro hatch. * don't overdrone. A good Terran is attacking very soon with a lot of !@#$%^&*. Bane nest. Mass lings off your 4 main base hatches ( natural/main base/ macro hatches). Use your far base only for drones. Still only one gas. Still only making lings. Morph banes. It's now mid game do w/e u think is best.
Would you mind sharing a replay or two?
Sure. Want to meet on battle.net? Tehredbandit is my handle and if I'm on you will see me in the starbow chat room. Just send me a message. edit: I'm completly lost on ZVP though. So if you have any ideas about that MU I'd love to head about them/see some reps.
Oh. I was kinda thinking more of you uploading the replay here so everyone could see how to play TvZ. I am personally having a bit of problem playing ZvT without rushing to lair w/ some spines behind it. So would to cool to see a different style.
I have not been actively saving any games. So these are just my most recent zvt games that were auto saved. I'll leave the judgement to ya'll, but please don't ridicule. I'm not looking for critique. This build is a work in progress from a casual player who enjoys the competition of the game. Questions are welcome though and I hope that I can help out my zerg and terran brothers alike so that we can continue to push the meta of this new game. I'll answer a couple questions/comments some people might have off the bat.
Bandit, why don't you take more gases earlier in the game? I need my lings and hatches, bro. Bandit, besides this build, what's another one that you like? 10 gas 10 pool. 6 Lings, Queen. Then hatch. Transfuse on hatch for quickness build. drone to 17, make another hatch then transfuse that as well. Kills greedy terrans outright. Sets behind less greedy terrans by alot. Puts them on the back foot. You can play this opening out mid game the same way as the main build I use in these replays. (If you're going to play a BO3 or tournement of some sort, this NEEDS to be in your repertoire). Bandit, do you think banes are good the starbow? Hmmmm, I don't know. I'm having fun and so are my terran friends, but some people don't enjoy them. I can kind of see why. If they are removed though, zerg will need a HUGE buff of some sort. Because as of right now, banes are the only thing letting zerg have some map presence. And, IMO, zerg macro mechanic is not up to par. Bandit, why don't you make more mutas? This is a tempo build. If I don't maintain bane and ling numbers it becomes very easy for my terran friends to come kill my bases. Simply put, in most of these games, there simply is not enough time. Bandit, why don't you use defliers more? I'm clumsy and sloppy. I play the style that fits me best. Also, i feel the shortened dark swarm length is BS.
On February 08 2014 09:49 tehredbanditt wrote: Here is the replay pack. http://drop.sc/uploads I have not been actively saving any games. So these are just my most recent zvt games that were auto saved. I'll leave the judgement to ya'll, but please don't ridicule. I'm not looking for critique. This build is a work in progress from a casual player who enjoys the competition of the game. Questions are welcome though and I hope that I can help out my zerg and terran brothers alike so that we can continue to push the meta of this new game. I'll answer a couple questions/comments some people might have off the bat.
Bandit, why don't you take more gases earlier in the game? I need my lings and hatches, bro. Bandit, besides this build, what's another one that you like? 10 gas 10 pool. 6 Lings, Queen. Then hatch. Transfuse on hatch for quickness build. drone to 17, make another hatch then transfuse that as well. Kills greedy terrans outright. Sets behind less greedy terrans by alot. Puts them on the back foot. You can play this opening out mid game the same way as the main build I use in these replays. (If you're going to play a BO3 or tournement of some sort, this NEEDS to be in your repertoire). Bandit, do you think banes are good the starbow? Hmmmm, I don't know. I'm having fun and so are my terran friends, but some people don't enjoy them. I can kind of see why. If they are removed though, zerg will need a HUGE buff of some sort. Because as of right now, banes are the only thing letting zerg have some map presence. And, IMO, zerg macro mechanic is not up to par. Bandit, why don't you make more mutas? This is a tempo build. If I don't maintain bane and ling numbers it becomes very easy for my terran friends to come kill my bases. Simply put, in most of these games, there simply is not enough time. Bandit, why don't you use defliers more? I'm clumsy and sloppy. I play the style that fits me best. Also, i feel the shortened dark swarm length is BS.
Unforutnately, that link goes towards my own uploads instead of yours.
I think you need to link for each individual game instead.
On February 08 2014 09:49 tehredbanditt wrote: Here is the replay pack. http://drop.sc/uploads I have not been actively saving any games. So these are just my most recent zvt games that were auto saved. I'll leave the judgement to ya'll, but please don't ridicule. I'm not looking for critique. This build is a work in progress from a casual player who enjoys the competition of the game. Questions are welcome though and I hope that I can help out my zerg and terran brothers alike so that we can continue to push the meta of this new game. I'll answer a couple questions/comments some people might have off the bat.
Bandit, why don't you take more gases earlier in the game? I need my lings and hatches, bro. Bandit, besides this build, what's another one that you like? 10 gas 10 pool. 6 Lings, Queen. Then hatch. Transfuse on hatch for quickness build. drone to 17, make another hatch then transfuse that as well. Kills greedy terrans outright. Sets behind less greedy terrans by alot. Puts them on the back foot. You can play this opening out mid game the same way as the main build I use in these replays. (If you're going to play a BO3 or tournement of some sort, this NEEDS to be in your repertoire). Bandit, do you think banes are good the starbow? Hmmmm, I don't know. I'm having fun and so are my terran friends, but some people don't enjoy them. I can kind of see why. If they are removed though, zerg will need a HUGE buff of some sort. Because as of right now, banes are the only thing letting zerg have some map presence. And, IMO, zerg macro mechanic is not up to par. Bandit, why don't you make more mutas? This is a tempo build. If I don't maintain bane and ling numbers it becomes very easy for my terran friends to come kill my bases. Simply put, in most of these games, there simply is not enough time. Bandit, why don't you use defliers more? I'm clumsy and sloppy. I play the style that fits me best. Also, i feel the shortened dark swarm length is BS.
Unforutnately, that link goes towards my own uploads instead of yours.
I think you need to link for each individual game instead.
what the hell am i supposed to do vs 1gate expand as zerg? chrono'd zealots force way too many lings/spines to get good economy and i eventually get rolled over by a toss who can: a) defend with mass zealots if i try to hydra bust b) get economy evenly matched/better than mine because of how many lings he forced with zealot pressure
On February 09 2014 21:33 Ej_ wrote: what the hell am i supposed to do vs 1gate expand as zerg? chrono'd zealots force way too many lings/spines to get good economy and i eventually get rolled over by a toss who can: a) defend with mass zealots if i try to hydra bust b) get economy evenly matched/better than mine because of how many lings he forced with zealot pressaure
honestly, im completely hopeless
It is pretty damn potent I'll give you that, indeed I have beaten players who are probably a lot better than I am with it. The only thing I would suggest that I haven't seen much of is trying to sim-city a bit like you vs Hellion pressures in SC2 and avoid letting them into your drone line where you WILL take losses.
On February 08 2014 09:49 tehredbanditt wrote: Also, i feel the shortened dark swarm length is BS.
Amen Brother + the smaller size. Just played a great Terran, I think it is time to develope another late game then BW had with irradiate unchanged. I also start to think about incorporating vipers to pull out the SV's, but that is sooo much gas, because the viper is gonna get irradiate and you lose 2 scourges, but otherwise scourges accomplish nothing.
I think this would be rather educational for Terrans out there struggeling TvZ: http://drop.sc/373619 As for my play, need to get a better grip on lurkers in small numbers, should have sieged his third instead of defending, defilers are rather late (but that does not matter since they are sooo weak).
BUG: Or not, but Air units do not have pathfinding in SC2, because why should they, howevery on many starbow maps there is unpassable air terrain (so my mutas get stuck without me noticing^^).
Even though this is strategy, I just don't get why Terrans not open reaper every game and kill larva and eggs with charges, should be unbeatable, maybe they don't wanna rely on a strat that has to be fixed gamewise, But it is still an option to use in tourneys and upcoming ladder.
When should I make my first hatchery? I tried at 10supply, followed by 9ov, but there is also the option of overlord first with hatchery at around 11 or 12 supply.
On February 08 2014 09:49 tehredbanditt wrote: Also, i feel the shortened dark swarm length is BS.
Amen Brother + the smaller size. Just played a great Terran, I think it is time to develope another late game then BW had with irradiate unchanged. I also start to think about incorporating vipers to pull out the SV's, but that is sooo much gas, because the viper is gonna get irradiate and you lose 2 scourges, but otherwise scourges accomplish nothing.
I think this would be rather educational for Terrans out there struggeling TvZ: http://drop.sc/373619 As for my play, need to get a better grip on lurkers in small numbers, should have sieged his third instead of defending, defilers are rather late (but that does not matter since they are sooo weak).
BUG: Or not, but Air units do not have pathfinding in SC2, because why should they, howevery on many starbow maps there is unpassable air terrain (so my mutas get stuck without me noticing^^).
Even though this is strategy, I just don't get why Terrans not open reaper every game and kill larva and eggs with charges, should be unbeatable, maybe they don't wanna rely on a strat that has to be fixed gamewise, But it is still an option to use in tourneys and upcoming ladder.
It is known that reapers are completely overpowered atm, and they are beeing looked at. That is the reason why I dont play them anymore (except 2v2 cause they are fun XD). Its simply not fun to win with practically no effort.
On February 10 2014 07:56 Grumbels wrote: When should I make my first hatchery? I tried at 10supply, followed by 9ov, but there is also the option of overlord first with hatchery at around 11 or 12 supply.
On February 09 2014 21:33 Ej_ wrote: what the hell am i supposed to do vs 1gate expand as zerg? chrono'd zealots force way too many lings/spines to get good economy and i eventually get rolled over by a toss who can: a) defend with mass zealots if i try to hydra bust b) get economy evenly matched/better than mine because of how many lings he forced with zealot pressure
honestly, im completely hopeless
make a spine (in your main), 6 lings and 2 queens in that order. bring the spine down and with good micro and the queen's attack ability you can defend fine, just keeps your lings poised to prevent a runby into your main. following up with fast mutas is nice since his tech will be really late.
I've been messing around with Banshee openings in TvT and have had moderate success. Taking 3 shots to kill an SCV is a little annoying, but with how weak marines are compared to SC2, it's not too bad. Especially if the opponent doesn't open fast ebay. Just my observation.
On February 10 2014 09:38 HeyImFinn wrote: I've been messing around with Banshee openings in TvT and have had moderate success. Taking 3 shots to kill an SCV is a little annoying, but with how weak marines are compared to SC2, it's not too bad. Especially if the opponent doesn't open fast ebay. Just my observation.
Or you open up with lots of goliaths like Dirtybag (to counter banshee openings that is)
EDIT: Also BeastyQT vs LuckyGnom ESL Starbow Finals Tournament 7
EDIT again: I don't think Dirtybag's build (the one I've seen anyway) exclusively counters banshees. I think if you position/or transition right, you can stop tank pushes from happening.
On February 10 2014 09:38 HeyImFinn wrote: I've been messing around with Banshee openings in TvT and have had moderate success. Taking 3 shots to kill an SCV is a little annoying, but with how weak marines are compared to SC2, it's not too bad. Especially if the opponent doesn't open fast ebay. Just my observation.
With banshee openings, its good to force your opponent on 2 bases and prevent moveouts across the map. With this I think good follow up is vulture/mines and a fast 3rd. The opponent can go mass dropship, banshees can't keep up so you need to transition into something to deal with it.
If your good with your banshee control with the upgrade range, you can actual bounce in and out of turret range and target workers on a mineral line if your opponent puts the turret closer to the CC.
This is probably a stupid question, but is it intended that Dragoons outrange everything in TvP until you get siege mode out? They can get the range upgrade way before you can get spider mines or siege mode, and even if you put a bunker at your natural they outrange that too. How do you prevent Protoss from just pumping Dragoons off 2 or 3 gates and delaying your ability to expand until you have siege tech out?
On February 11 2014 03:07 Xequecal wrote: This is probably a stupid question, but is it intended that Dragoons outrange everything in TvP until you get siege mode out? They can get the range upgrade way before you can get spider mines or siege mode, and even if you put a bunker at your natural they outrange that too. How do you prevent Protoss from just pumping Dragoons off 2 or 3 gates and delaying your ability to expand until you have siege tech out?
You get bunker up before Dragoons w/ Range are out and then repair it.
On February 11 2014 03:07 Xequecal wrote: This is probably a stupid question, but is it intended that Dragoons outrange everything in TvP until you get siege mode out? They can get the range upgrade way before you can get spider mines or siege mode, and even if you put a bunker at your natural they outrange that too. How do you prevent Protoss from just pumping Dragoons off 2 or 3 gates and delaying your ability to expand until you have siege tech out?
On February 11 2014 03:07 Xequecal wrote: This is probably a stupid question, but is it intended that Dragoons outrange everything in TvP until you get siege mode out? They can get the range upgrade way before you can get spider mines or siege mode, and even if you put a bunker at your natural they outrange that too. How do you prevent Protoss from just pumping Dragoons off 2 or 3 gates and delaying your ability to expand until you have siege tech out?
You get bunker up before Dragoons w/ Range are out and then repair it.
I was going to test this myself before I couldn't get on earlier. (See this post for my thoughts on that) There is an optimal number of SCV:Goon ratio when it comes to repair as well, you don't want to pull more than you need!
Somebody else probably knows the numbers off-hand anyway
On February 11 2014 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote: I was going to test this myself before I couldn't get on earlier. (See this post for my thoughts on that) There is an optimal number of SCV:Goon ratio when it comes to repair as well, you don't want to pull more than you need!
Somebody else probably knows the numbers off-hand anyway
Whats work for me, is one SCV per dragoon target firing the bunker.
If you're doing a 1rax expand, a cool thing to try is to rally your bunker to a dragoon and unload. The marines will automatically fire once in range and since dragoons have a projectile attack its possible to go inside the bunker before the projectile hits you.
* * *
I've been getting tired of zergs going 3 hatch before pool thinking everything is fine. Since right now we cannot build a rax before supply depot, I've been trying to do some kind of bunker rush. You cut some SCVs in the beginning but with SCV calldown and salvage I believe its perfectly possible to get your economy back up.
8 depot 9 rax @ rax 100% orbital + marine + depot @ orbital 100% overcharge your rax
At 2:50, your first marine should be out and if the zerg went hatch first, you'll still have plenty of time to start your bunker. You may need to send two SCVs on 4 player maps to figure out where the zerg is.
The hilarious part, is even if your SCV building the initial bunker gets sniped by drones, you can SCV calldown to the bunker and continue building without having to pull SCVs from your mineral line. You can also do the reverse, pull SCVs, and use calldown to reinforce your economy.
Around 4:00 you should have enough to plant your CC and complete a wall-off.
http://drop.sc/373718 One of many games I've attempted it, but should give you the basic outline of how I think it should work.
Lemme know what you guys think, don't let those pesky zergs think they're safe!
On February 12 2014 19:25 zawk9 wrote: What are people doing in mid to late game ZvP in Starbow?
I personally go for a hydra/lurker 3 hatch dropplay timing in ZvP. Its really strong if opponent doesn't have practice vs it, and its quite fun as well. I think after that, however, you slowly need to tech up to Vipers/Defiler/Cracklings/ultralisks (though I am not sure how good they are since Dragoons scale so much better than in BW).
I'd honestly be more worried about TvZ. Smartcast Irradiate, >12 unit selection, and being able to tell the difference between burrowed units without having to individually click on them removes one of the biggest micro/APM needs from the Terran player in this matchup relative to BW. It makes dodging scourge trivial and makes it much easier to avoid a game-ending plague on your cloud of vessels.
On February 13 2014 06:28 Xequecal wrote: I'd honestly be more worried about TvZ. Smartcast Irradiate, >12 unit selection, and being able to tell the difference between burrowed units without having to individually click on them removes one of the biggest micro/APM needs from the Terran player in this matchup relative to BW. It makes dodging scourge trivial and makes it much easier to avoid a game-ending plague on your cloud of vessels.
On February 12 2014 19:25 zawk9 wrote: What are people doing in mid to late game ZvP in Starbow?
I personally go for a hydra/lurker 3 hatch dropplay timing in ZvP. Its really strong if opponent doesn't have practice vs it, and its quite fun as well. I think after that, however, you slowly need to tech up to Vipers/Defiler/Cracklings/ultralisks (though I am not sure how good they are since Dragoons scale so much better than in BW).
Got any reps? Everything zerg has just melts so fast to smartcasted storms even if you micro it (because generally they can t click faster than you can move your unira) so I'm curious if there's a trick to the micro or something I'm missing engagement-wise. Not whining, but I want to learn the matchup..
Imo proxy banshee is very strong in all matchups, you just do a seige expand and you can still afford it, just keep your scout scv alive and pick a nice proxy location. In fact the build works really nice in starbow, because at the time you can build the starport you dont have anything else to spend dosh on, its smooth.
I used to use a Rax Expand build in every match up and I found that to be the best build, especially in TvT since you can still hold all 1base harasses easily while still being ahead in economy...
... or so I thought until Kalevi, that devil, used a Reaper Opening (double rax I believe) I simply couldnt handle :X
after that game he Ghost rushed me ;< also not very pleasant, I guess my assumptions were wrong :< (when Shock gets changed, it probably wont prevent Repair anymore :X)
What kind of TvT Openings did you guys find to be msot successful/very strong and reliable?
On February 17 2014 12:28 Daumen wrote: I used to use a Rax Expand build in every match up and I found that to be the best build, especially in TvT since you can still hold all 1base harasses easily while still being ahead in economy...
... or so I thought until Kalevi, that devil, used a Reaper Opening (double rax I believe) I simply couldnt handle :X
after that game he Ghost rushed me ;< also not very pleasant, I guess my assumptions were wrong :< (when Shock gets changed, it probably wont prevent Repair anymore :X)
What kind of TvT Openings did you guys find to be msot successful/very strong and reliable?
On February 17 2014 12:28 Daumen wrote: I used to use a Rax Expand build in every match up and I found that to be the best build, especially in TvT since you can still hold all 1base harasses easily while still being ahead in economy...
... or so I thought until Kalevi, that devil, used a Reaper Opening (double rax I believe) I simply couldnt handle :X
after that game he Ghost rushed me ;< also not very pleasant, I guess my assumptions were wrong :< (when Shock gets changed, it probably wont prevent Repair anymore :X)
What kind of TvT Openings did you guys find to be msot successful/very strong and reliable?
What if u build marauders when u face this then?
on double rax then u mean? because the amount of reapers can get pretty high, with those bombs its rly annoying ;X
for ghosts its not the best solution i think, ghosts do normal dmg, imba!
On February 17 2014 12:28 Daumen wrote: I used to use a Rax Expand build in every match up and I found that to be the best build, especially in TvT since you can still hold all 1base harasses easily while still being ahead in economy...
... or so I thought until Kalevi, that devil, used a Reaper Opening (double rax I believe) I simply couldnt handle :X
after that game he Ghost rushed me ;< also not very pleasant, I guess my assumptions were wrong :< (when Shock gets changed, it probably wont prevent Repair anymore :X)
What kind of TvT Openings did you guys find to be msot successful/very strong and reliable?
What if u build marauders when u face this then?
on double rax then u mean? because the amount of reapers can get pretty high, with those bombs its rly annoying ;X
for ghosts its not the best solution i think, ghosts do normal dmg, imba!
Ye, was thinking versus the reapers. Never seen the ghosts in tvt before, cuz i never try them.
I dont like playing with imba units T_T; But, the thing is though, if u add marauders vs the reapers through 1rax only. I think u can get your factory for vults in time
In theory, i think u should be okay. Probably in the lead even against that
On February 18 2014 18:07 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Q for TvZ: I see my opponent go for 3 hatch before pool, or something close to that on 3 quick bases. What should I build to punish this off 2 bases?
Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings?
Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that.
Deponds on your build.
Lets say u go normal eco build 14cc or 1rax FE
put 2-3rax before gas with overcharge->marines, move out. Now tho iam not sure u can punish it, but u can atleast make him spend larva on zerglings.
Your next push should be marines/medics/2-3bats with stim. And keep hammering
Ye, btw if u go mech vults can probably work or atleast be good. 2factory One or two techlab, or combine with 1reactor. mines/speed or only speed, combine with a fastdropship can be good probably
Now, not sure u can really punish the zerg but still let him waste larva on units. I think tho when zerg learn how to play against vults he will block it quite easy but hard to say for now
One last thing, when u go bio. I think in theory adding a semi-fast dropship can be good because zergs strat evolves around static defence when going 3fast gas.
But i need to test that first. Its hard to scout zerg imo, u need that scan upgrade - So when u do scan its pretty to late to react with your tech imo
On February 18 2014 18:07 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Q for TvZ: I see my opponent go for 3 hatch before pool, or something close to that on 3 quick bases. What should I build to punish this off 2 bases?
Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings?
Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that.
If it is greedy 3 hatch before a pool, with a rax on 11, you should be able to do a bunker rush then. You don't need to do direct damage, just force lings instead of drones, drain energy on queens, and salvage your bunker.
For 3 quick bases, vultures with speed will give a big problem for someone who only relies on ling defense and does not simcity their natural to block vulture runbys. A build I like to use is going reaper first, then when your factory is done, swap and do speed + vulture production right away. On maps like Fighting Spirit this is good cause the reaper can harass and scout what tech path zerg is going for, while you can mine the map or harass their 3rd with vultures.
I haven't personally tried banshees to try to snipe an early 3rd base, but it should be good if you're good with your micro(cloaking at the right times and running away when necessary) and make sure not get shot down by the queen.
On February 18 2014 18:07 CannonsNCarriers wrote: Q for TvZ: I see my opponent go for 3 hatch before pool, or something close to that on 3 quick bases. What should I build to punish this off 2 bases?
Marine/Marauder push? Reapers? Vultures? I have been messing around them, maybe vikings?
Keep in mind that the three base gas count means that a flock of 20 mutas is coming and the build response needs some way to deal with that.
If it is greedy 3 hatch before a pool, with a rax on 11, you should be able to do a bunker rush then. You don't need to do direct damage, just force lings instead of drones, drain energy on queens, and salvage your bunker.
For 3 quick bases, vultures with speed will give a big problem for someone who only relies on ling defense and does not simcity their natural to block vulture runbys. A build I like to use is going reaper first, then when your factory is done, swap and do speed + vulture production right away. On maps like Fighting Spirit this is good cause the reaper can harass and scout what tech path zerg is going for, while you can mine the map or harass their 3rd with vultures.
I haven't personally tried banshees to try to snipe an early 3rd base, but it should be good if you're good with your micro(cloaking at the right times and running away when necessary) and make sure not get shot down by the queen.
I just harass with 2 reapers and ether force enrages or lings and both ways Zerg loses drones It slows down their tech so hard. Then I do a Quick stim timing and crush something 3rd / nat.
Is it possible to win TvZ atm? Mutas seem so strong, especially when they clump into a 14-20 muta flock :X almost seems like I have to get the new Ghosts now (or early science vessel).
Whats should the mindset/bo be? Usually i have no chance with mech, mutas just own me (or im stuck on 2 and a half bases). But Bio doesnt defent well vs mutas either, i lose map control and the zerg just takes 2-3 additional bases and I feel like i cant move out because the mutas alone own my army :x
On February 20 2014 08:17 Daumen wrote: Is it possible to win TvZ atm? Mutas seem so strong, especially when they clump into a 14-20 muta flock :X almost seems like I have to get the new Ghosts now (or early science vessel).
Whats should the mindset/bo be? Usually i have no chance with mech, mutas just own me (or im stuck on 2 and a half bases). But Bio doesnt defent well vs mutas either, i lose map control and the zerg just takes 2-3 additional bases and I feel like i cant move out because the mutas alone own my army :x
People are still underestimating vikings to an extent. I usually open vultures with speed or mines then get vikings with speed upgrade as I'm expanding. Let's you get some map control with vultures and early vikings take out nearby overlords to prevent scouting. Vikings with speed can handle mutas combined with either goliath or medic/marine.
Remember to target fire correctly onto only one muta when engaging.
You can also attempt to get really fast +1 weapons which really hurts in straight up fights and allow you to be more aggressive out on the map.
On February 20 2014 08:17 Daumen wrote: Is it possible to win TvZ atm? Mutas seem so strong, especially when they clump into a 14-20 muta flock :X almost seems like I have to get the new Ghosts now (or early science vessel).
Whats should the mindset/bo be? Usually i have no chance with mech, mutas just own me (or im stuck on 2 and a half bases). But Bio doesnt defent well vs mutas either, i lose map control and the zerg just takes 2-3 additional bases and I feel like i cant move out because the mutas alone own my army :x
People are still underestimating vikings to an extent. I usually open vultures with speed or mines then get vikings with speed upgrade as I'm expanding. Let's you get some map control with vultures and early vikings take out nearby overlords to prevent scouting. Vikings with speed can handle mutas combined with either goliath or medic/marine.
Remember to target fire correctly onto only one muta when engaging.
You can also attempt to get really fast +1 weapons which really hurts in straight up fights and allow you to be more aggressive out on the map.
can you elaborate on the BO or give me an example replay?
You go Rax FE and tech to starport while staying on 1 Rax? do you build the starport, then expand or expand before Starport? Vikings is actually a great idea, i want to try it (since I hate those overlords that tell my enemy that im moving out).
Carriers seem really really good against mech. I've only had one game against mech agaisnt someone a couple leagues below me so I can't say for sure, but carriers seem like a decent choice.
How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries.
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries.
You have to create a partial wall at your natural using forge and gate.
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries.
Note, that in the OP i don't "suggest" you do it. I see it more as me coming up with a concept that I want other players to experiment and refine. Its not an easy build to execute by any means, thus I suggest lower level players stick to forge-expand.
Anyway, vs speedlings, you always need to have a wall off. So either you leave one zealot behind or you wall off w/ a pylon when you move out. I think on map locations where the zerg can have an ovie above your entrance, you should go for a forgefollow up as it simply becomes too easy for the zerg player to optimize his lingrunby's when he can see exactly when you move out. I don't get a forge normally though as I think heavy gateway production with fast legspeed + blink stalkers can beat most zerg timings.
My preferred midgame style post-Stalker buff is Chargelot + Stalker + Archon. Stalkers are incredibly strong IMO if ussed correctly - especially on maps where you can blink into the main. This is a really mobile and fun style and you can add in DT harass and warp prism harass as well.
On February 23 2014 00:58 StaraCroft wrote: How are you guys opening in pvz? I'm ~1/15 pvz so far and I'm running out of ideas. When I do the build suggested by OP I get overrun by speedlings usually, but I'll give it some more tries.
Post one of your replays so we can get an idea of what you're doing. The build in the OP isn't bad but you might wanna learn how to fast expand, which is more or less the standard build.
Green Zerg vs Zerg: Hydras and Vipers! Hey I thought I would share my current ZvZ strat and thoughts with you guys, since it seems to work out decently. (still needs a lot of testing against various stuff, but I'll outline what I do and my thoughtprocess for so long)
The 10pool/speed opening: 10pool 10gas 10overlord -->make 6zerglings -->pull out of gas @100gas -->make speed -->make more zerglings -->make queen @150minerals -->make OL ~>squeeze in some drones (if possible) The idea here is to punish a player that goes for a hatch first build. You really don't want to face an opponent that can decide between mutalisks or zerglings off 2bases. Therefore I want to keep the opponent on a low larva/income count, so that he cannot surprise me with a lot of zerglings while I go hydralisks. (basically, if both players have little larva, more larvaefficient units like hydralisks or mutalisks can be used to counter zerglings even if they are not costefficient. Since the opponent cannot spend his money properly on zerglings due to the lack of larva)
The macro setup up -->expand @300minerals -->pull back into gas -->get a lair -->get an evolution chamber -->get your second queen -->get a hydralisk den -->saturate your bases (if possible); -->build 1-2 spore crawlers per base (unless no mutalisks are coming) -->@100%lair, get a Viper Nest -->@100%Viper Nest, research abduct -->build hydralisks -->build 1-2Vipers ~>spend your gas on the following things in the given priority: hydralisk speed, +1armor, hydralisk range If you reach this setup without falling behind, I believe you have the strongest position for a macro game possible.
How to play a macrogame... ... against mutalisks: try not to take damage in the early game and retain zerglings unless you can trade efficiently (so against more zerglings or drones). You can have spores/queens up to prevent initial damage from the fastest mutalisks. Just micro your queens (targetfire weakened mutalisks!) around a little and your drones if they are not covered by spores. Once hydras/Vipers are out, you can start abducting the mutalisks one by one. Watch out against mass zergling play, so, keep your zergling count up to tank/block for the hydralisks. Use ensnare for any bigger combat, especially vs banelings.
... against hydralisks: In hydra vs hydra battles, you want to ensnare as much as you can and bring zerglings to the party. If you ensnare well, you will win any battle, even if you are behind in upgrades or outnumbered. Don't build roaches (because they get hardcountered by hydralisks). At this point you are playing a mirror match and your basic clues for that should be to get more Hydras/Vipers than your opponent, more bases than your opponent and/or defilers (for plague and Darkswarm). Watch out for enemy Vipers abducting your Vipers or forcing you to fight with ensnare!
... against ling/bling: That's probably the tricky one and I need experience against this myself. I believe that with good ensnares and good splitting/kiting you should be able to win mediumsized combats. For bigger combats I guess you should bring roaches to the party.
... against roaches or ultralisks: Haven't had either of those situations. But basically the hydralisk should hardcounter either.
... against Devourers or Guardians: Haven't had either of those situations. But basically the hydralisk should hardcounter either, and if not, use abduct.
EPT
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