• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:08
CET 12:08
KST 20:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies0ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 929 users

[G] Zerg vs Zerg - Defensive Maneuvers

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-13 22:19:38
April 13 2013 19:45 GMT
#1
Zerg vs Zerg - Defensive Maneuvers

[image loading]

Introduction:

+ Show Spoiler +
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid!

I received a special request from a good friend asking me to produce a guide on defensive tactics for Zerg vs Zerg, so here we are! In my opinion, there are few things more important in SC2 than keeping your composure during less-than-ideal situations, and I actually think that defending all-ins is one of the best ways to improve in situational micro - assuming you can keep your cool.

I've lost more games than I can count to early aggression, but I always play it out to the bitter end. So even if you think you're way behind and doomed, practice setting up the best defense / engagements that you can. You might be surprised to find yourself pulling out of some pretty dire spots. So the next time someone cheeses you, get those angry thoughts out of your head, and focus on the task at hand - you will be the better player for it.

The guide will feature my own games in HotS at the top-master level, but I hope others will contribute their own tactics / replays / advice in the comments.


Defensive Maneuvers Tutorial:

+ Show Spoiler +
In this short 30-Minute tutorial, I look at three games and point out some crucial ways to engage and minimize damage:

Zerg vs Zerg Tutorial - Defensive Maneuvers


Tips and Tricks (Part 1):

+ Show Spoiler +
Note: As previously stated, the tutorial video goes over these points in much finer detail.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pull a few Drones to delay Spinecrawlers

[image loading]

Against early Pools, you can't afford to let a Spinecrawler finish. Don't be afraid to pull 6-8 workers.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Right-Click mineral patches to group up your Drones.

[image loading]

If you must engage Lings with Drones, you don't want to just A-Move your Drones into his Lings - you want to group up first and ideally buy time for your own Lings to finish.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Engage with Lings and Drones

[image loading]

Once you have 4~ Lings with your Drones, you should feel comfortable to engage head-on. Now you can A-move.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Once you've held your main, defend your expansion/ramp

[image loading]

You may be in the situation where you need to have your Drones mining at the expansion so that you can defend it against a higher Ling count.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Anytime Lings are chasing yours, that's free hits for your Queen

[image loading]

Usually engaging with your Lings + Queen is fine, but in small numbers, let him chase your Lings while your Queen gets some free damage dealt.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ugh. . .

[image loading]

This won't go well regardless, but don't panic - set up the best engagement as possible by pulling back closer to the Spine. Where the Lings are now would be terrible, it's too wide.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

That's better

[image loading]

At least here the engagement will be more cost-efficient. The Spine can take some of the DPS, and the few Lings prevent a complete surround on the Spine. With a few transfuses, maybe we can hold. . .
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Forget what I just said about holding. . .

[image loading]

Too many Lings, but again don't panic! Buy every second you can, and keep producing Zerglings.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

When he comes into the main, your Queen needs to be a hero

[image loading]

Position the Queen between the mineral fields, so that it reduces the surface area. This way, he won't be able to just surround the Queen then maul the Drones.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just keep engaging with Lings + Queens, as best you can

[image loading]

Remember that even when things seem helpless, your opponent doesn't have unlimited stuff. Kill every Ling you can, buy every second you can.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ramp defence is so important when he has speed

[image loading]

The last thing you want is Speedlings picking off your main Drones, so try to keep your Lings near your ramp to defend.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Tips and Tricks (Part 2):

+ Show Spoiler +
Opponent Surrounds Queen with Drones

[image loading]

If you select all your workers and Right-Click a Queen, it will mess up the pathing for the Zerglings. Here, my Lings won't be able to get up close to the Queen and attack.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Queen well-protected

[image loading]

Against an overwhelming Ling force, this buys the crucial time to get out some Zerglings and defend with minimal loses.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Engage in narrow areas to be cost-efficient

[image loading]

If your opponent has more Lings than you (Like Blue does above) engage either on the ramp or in-between buildings. If the surface area is even, the engagement is even.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Defend your ramp with what ya got

[image loading]

Here there's no Queens to wall the ramp, so the 5 Zerglings I do have move to the top to try to wall for as much time as possible. Seconds are important.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

See how much of a difference this makes!

[image loading]

His units are struggling to get up the ramp, and I get some free hits, and move the Spine in range which focuses down some of his Banelings.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

If necessary, Drones can wall the ramp

[image loading]

By selecting the workers from the main and Right-clicking the expansion minerals, the Drones make a straight line to the expansion (by-passing any workers/Zerglings in the way). If I make it to the ramp and then attack-move, I can buy even more time on the ramp where my Spines can help engage.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spread out Roaches against Banelings

[image loading]

Obviously Roaches are strong against banelings, but you still want to spread them out to be cost-efficient. Try not to have more than 4-5 Units bunched up if you can avoid it.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Tips and Tricks (Part 3):

+ Show Spoiler +
Uh Oh. . . Banelings incoming before Roaches

[image loading]

This came at a less-than-ideal time, but Roaches are building so it's just about buying time. I reset the hatchery rally points so when Roaches finish they don't run all over the place. Walling the Ramp with Queens also buys some time.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spread out your drones to minimize Baneling hits

[image loading]

Resist the temptation to box all your workers and run - do little boxes of 3-4 Drones and spread them all around. Make sure you leave your Queen in the mineral line so that if he A-Moves, he hits the Queen
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Wall-In with your Roaches to minimize surrounds/damage

[image loading]

Roaches are pretty weak against Lings if they get surrounded, so sometimes you just have to create a make-shift wall. Heaven help you if there's a gap though.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

One Roach left...position it between mineral patches

[image loading]

Just like the Queen from game 1, you want to place the Roach where it can't be surrounded. By positioning it between the mineral fields, only 1-2 Lings can engage - which means his Lings will do less damage to your workers. It's all about buying time for your reinforcements.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________



Stream Highlights:

+ Show Spoiler +
These are games from my point-of-view, so you can watch me squirm and frantically fight for survival:

Tang vs CheesyCraft - http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2149845 (Early Pool / Mass Ling)
Tang vs BlackShadow - http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2132366 (Baneling All-In)
Tang vs Protoss - http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2132353 (Baneling All-In)
Tang vs Augustus - http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/2132399 (Baneling All-In)


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +
Here are some replays, in case any of the points weren't clear or if you just want to do your own analysis:

Tang vs CheesyCraft - http://drop.sc/322895
Tang vs Blackshadow - http://drop.sc/322894
Tang vs Protoss - http://drop.sc/322896
Tang vs Unluckynewb - http://drop.sc/322897


Support:

+ Show Spoiler +
TangStarcraft.com

My web page has been around for years, with a free sign-up and free SC2 content. I've taken countless hours to produce these guides, please take a moment to sign up and show your support. I will personally answer every single question that users post on the website. There is also coaching information for those interested in becoming the next SC2 prodigy I have three years of coaching experience and I %&$^ing love it.

Team All-Inspiration

It's been a long time since I played for a competitive team, but I'm thrilled to announce that for the indefinite future, I will be an active member of the very-supportive Team All-Inspiration. It is a tight-knit community dedicated to practice and improvement - what could be wrong with that? The website is All-Inspiration.com (though it is currently being renovated/improved - shout out to EnterJayhari and -ReD- for their assistance with this).

Twitch.TV/TangSC

I recently updated my internet for higher quality video, and got brand new stream overlays. I stream as many tutorials/ladder sessions as time allows Please follow to get a notification when the stream is live


Feedback Poll:

+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: How helpful did you find this guide?

4 - Very helpful, I picked up some good tips (31)
 
44%

3 - Sort of helpful, I knew most of this stuff but it'll probably help others (21)
 
30%

5 - Extremely Helpful, this was just what I needed. (16)
 
23%

2 - Not very helpful, it's unlikely these tips will apply to my own games (1)
 
1%

1 - Useless, this content is complete garbage and so is Tang (1)
 
1%

70 total votes

Your vote: How helpful did you find this guide?

(Vote): 5 - Extremely Helpful, this was just what I needed.
(Vote): 4 - Very helpful, I picked up some good tips
(Vote): 3 - Sort of helpful, I knew most of this stuff but it'll probably help others
(Vote): 2 - Not very helpful, it's unlikely these tips will apply to my own games
(Vote): 1 - Useless, this content is complete garbage and so is Tang

Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Keilkan
Profile Joined July 2012
Denmark67 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-13 21:02:42
April 13 2013 21:01 GMT
#2
Much of this will be assisting to lower-league players.
A few takes on how to effectively use mutas in lower numbers in combination with Zerglings/Queens to soak bounces might deserve its own little "Tips and tricks" segment, though, as many matches end up like that.

I also think you could go into explaining building/spine placement aswell, as that is key to creating the ideal chokes to defend versus overwhelming numbers and being cost effective.
Blast 'em!
phrenzy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom478 Posts
April 14 2013 19:05 GMT
#3
I'm a masters zerg and i am still working on my mechanics, making sure i dont miss any injects and pumping out as many drones as i can get away with based on my scouting which i try to do as often as possible without it costing me a lot of resources, so being defensive is a essential skill which allows me to be aggressive in the mid-game.

And there isnt a zvz i play now where my opponent doesn't put on heavy ling/bling pressure.

One trick that i have found is i usually have minimal units to defend with when an attack comes (maybe a ling and 2 banes), with units in production. If they push in with the banes first i manage to hold that off pretty easy, (i also have a spine at that time), but if they overwhelm with lings and you have lings about to pop. If you run your drones to your main, they will find them hard to kill.

They then might make a bee line straight to your main. In that case i select those drones and send them to my natural and move the queen inbetween mineral patches to minimize surface area.

So what i have effectively done is swap the drones from one base to the other. I only noticed this because it happens quite frequently. At most i will lose 2 drones, but more often than not i dont lose anything.

It also helps if you are a camera location player like myself, getting from one base to the next is very easy/natural/fast but i imagine at this stage if you are a backspace/tilda player it will work just as well.

And when your units pop i always have enough to defend and they backoff, also i can put on some counter pressure with those lings and make sure he isnt droning behind this attack and while you do so you can make more drones behind this and tech.

Lightstalker
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada6 Posts
April 15 2013 03:22 GMT
#4
Early game ZvZ has always been a big issue for me. If the game is less than 10 minutes long, I have a 10% win rate, and all of those losses are to early ling/bling.

Why the decision to go Roaches? I've been told by some people that, since the metagame is ling/bling/muta, roaches generally aren't worth it in the match-up and it's better to hold onto the gas you'd invest into roaches + speed for the mutalisks. Clearly in your examples they worked well to defend against the aggression you encountered in the example above, but if your opponent is only applying moderate pressure and plans on making the switch to mutas, we could be pretty screwed when 16 mutas show up at our front lines.

Thanks for the examples. Will definitely be reviewing the replays at a later point.
Alch3mist
Profile Joined December 2011
Belgium29 Posts
April 15 2013 12:22 GMT
#5
There are some really helpful tips here, thanks Tang!
However, as it was said by Lightstalker, i see people skip roaches most of the time. Is it really necessary to get roaches to hold some types of all-ins or is it possible to hold until mutas comes out with only ling/bling/queens/spines?
I was also wondering if some quick roach "all-in" could kill a zerg that skips roaches for mutas.
I'm trying to find the right balance between being safe and not to delay the mutas too much but it's not easy to situate.
LexKaiba
Profile Joined May 2011
Ireland23 Posts
April 15 2013 13:53 GMT
#6
Hi, more great help thanks! Would you have any micro tips for defending ling bain with ling bain?
Zerg!!!!!!
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2013 14:49 GMT
#7
On April 15 2013 12:22 Lightstalker wrote:
Why the decision to go Roaches? I've been told by some people that, since the metagame is ling/bling/muta, roaches generally aren't worth it in the match-up and it's better to hold onto the gas you'd invest into roaches + speed for the mutalisks. Clearly in your examples they worked well to defend against the aggression you encountered in the example above, but if your opponent is only applying moderate pressure and plans on making the switch to mutas, we could be pretty screwed when 16 mutas show up at our front lines.

My decision to go Roaches wasn't to be defensive; I planned to open with a Roach timing attack then transition to either Mutalisks or Infestor/Hydra. It's a build that I plan to write a little guide on in the future.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2013 14:58 GMT
#8
On April 15 2013 21:22 Alch3mist wrote:
I was also wondering if some quick roach "all-in" could kill a zerg that skips roaches for mutas.

Ohhhh yes
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2013 14:59 GMT
#9
On April 15 2013 04:05 phrenzy wrote:
So what i have effectively done is swap the drones from one base to the other. I only noticed this because it happens quite frequently. At most i will lose 2 drones, but more often than not i dont lose anything.

Yeah man those types of maneuvers are key for buying time with minimal losses.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2013 15:00 GMT
#10
On April 14 2013 06:01 Keilkan wrote:

A few takes on how to effectively use mutas in lower numbers in combination with Zerglings/Queens to soak bounces might deserve its own little "Tips and tricks" segment, though, as many matches end up like that.

That would actually be pretty interesting/relevant, since a lot of ZvZs turn into those Mutalisk wars and it's inevitable your opponents will have the Mutalisk advantage some games.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 15 2013 15:03 GMT
#11
On April 15 2013 22:53 LexKaiba wrote:
Hi, more great help thanks! Would you have any micro tips for defending ling bain with ling bain?

My pleasure LexKaiba but I personally avoid using Banelings in ZvZ (which I know is against the grain, but I've always been a Roach/Ling player).
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
April 16 2013 02:54 GMT
#12
TangSC, tahnks for posting this. The defensive maneuvers are really good. Especially putting the queen or roach between the minerals.
Big Red Dog!
Ender142
Profile Joined March 2013
14 Posts
April 16 2013 17:51 GMT
#13
Thanks for this guide. Very interesting VOD examples.

I am a newer player (started SC2 just before HotS) and am currently in Platinum. Yesterday I lost to an early pool + spine crawler rush where he setup the spine just at the edge of my creep in range of my pool (i usually place it next to a gas). I use camera settings for bases and the opening camera position for your main tends to be positioned so it shows minerals more towards the center of the screen. So, the spine was just off of my screen. Since my minimap awareness sucks, I never saw the spine and once it poped he ran in with lings and ate my pool -> gg.

Are there any tips for a noob to prevent this? I am working on minimap awareness, which is an obvious need for improvement. But besides that, should I be placing my pool behind minerals instead? I used to do that until it became a target during drops or muta attacks.
TheSambassador
Profile Joined May 2010
United States186 Posts
April 16 2013 18:08 GMT
#14
On April 17 2013 02:51 Ender142 wrote:
Thanks for this guide. Very interesting VOD examples.

I am a newer player (started SC2 just before HotS) and am currently in Platinum. Yesterday I lost to an early pool + spine crawler rush where he setup the spine just at the edge of my creep in range of my pool (i usually place it next to a gas). I use camera settings for bases and the opening camera position for your main tends to be positioned so it shows minerals more towards the center of the screen. So, the spine was just off of my screen. Since my minimap awareness sucks, I never saw the spine and once it poped he ran in with lings and ate my pool -> gg.

Are there any tips for a noob to prevent this? I am working on minimap awareness, which is an obvious need for improvement. But besides that, should I be placing my pool behind minerals instead? I used to do that until it became a target during drops or muta attacks.


First, at the beginning of the game, make sure that you send your overlord towards your opponent's base and just focus on the minimap. You should be able to build drones without looking at your base. If you see lings with your first overlord, you know what's up. If you see an early drone "scout", be suspicious. Most zerg players do NOT drone scout and it's typically considered unnecessary. If you're on a 4-player map, and a drone comes to your base, there's a 90% chance that he is cheesing (since he had to scout with the drone to find you).

Watch a replay to get the specific timing that a 6/7/8/9/10 pool finishes at. If you've seen a drone head towards your base, don't be afraid to just send a drone towards the edges of the creep to spot for a spine around that timing.

If a spine is going up, but his lings aren't there yet, grab 4-6 drones and just right-click on the spine. You WILL force a cancel.

6-pools are really hard to defend when you are first starting out, but it gets easier with some practice. I still lose an occasional game to a 6 or 7 pool when I mis-micro and I'm in Masters.
Ender142
Profile Joined March 2013
14 Posts
April 16 2013 18:19 GMT
#15
Thanks. I will look back at the replay and see if he drone scouted. I do recall a recent ZvZ game where i saw a drone scout... can't remember if it was this one.
TheSambassador
Profile Joined May 2010
United States186 Posts
April 16 2013 19:10 GMT
#16
On April 17 2013 03:19 Ender142 wrote:
Thanks. I will look back at the replay and see if he drone scouted. I do recall a recent ZvZ game where i saw a drone scout... can't remember if it was this one.


Drone scouts are not COMPLETELY out-of-style. Sometimes a player going 15 hatch will go with a drone scout to check for an early pool and to block the other player's hatch-first as well. It can be pretty effective, but if they're going 14/15 pool before hatch you end up being behind.

You just have to be really cautious of your opponent's drone. If it seems earlier than usual, just check the edges of your base and be a bit paranoid.
Ender142
Profile Joined March 2013
14 Posts
April 16 2013 22:12 GMT
#17
Turns out he didn't drone "scout", he just sent the drone to make a spine at the edge of my creep right away. The drone wasn't spotted by either of my 2 overlords that were on the way to his base. My first overlord did spot the lings for a second though, i just missed it (i think i was placing my hatch at the time).

Obviously the answer is just constantly watching the minimap for the first 18 supply. Thanks to this guide, I know what to do, but the problem is spotting it.
DenTenker
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 00:31:32
April 17 2013 00:28 GMT
#18
Great read Tang. As a diamond zerg myself, I often lose my cool when being cheesed/early pooled by the opponent. This reminds me of what I should be doing to combat it. I also picked up a few hand dandy tips as well. Thanks! I always look forward to your guides.
If your all in didn't work, you didn't pull the workers.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-17 13:38:46
April 17 2013 13:37 GMT
#19
On April 17 2013 07:12 Ender142 wrote:
Turns out he didn't drone "scout", he just sent the drone to make a spine at the edge of my creep right away. The drone wasn't spotted by either of my 2 overlords that were on the way to his base. My first overlord did spot the lings for a second though, i just missed it (i think i was placing my hatch at the time).

Obviously the answer is just constantly watching the minimap for the first 18 supply. Thanks to this guide, I know what to do, but the problem is spotting it.

Anytime you see early lings on the map (2:30-3:00), that's a good indication that there may be a spine building on your creep - the first thing I would do if I saw early Lings coming is pull a Drone off mining to quickly check around the edges of the creep, and pull 4~ more if there was a Spine building.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 17 2013 13:43 GMT
#20
On April 17 2013 09:28 DenTenker wrote:
Great read Tang. As a diamond zerg myself, I often lose my cool when being cheesed/early pooled by the opponent. This reminds me of what I should be doing to combat it. I also picked up a few hand dandy tips as well. Thanks! I always look forward to your guides.

Thanks for reading man, glad you picked up a few tips. I used to get frustrated when people cheesed me too, but all that frustration does is take away from in-game focus.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
deakinsjt
Profile Joined November 2012
10 Posts
April 19 2013 02:39 GMT
#21
Very useful in ZVZ, thanks
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 22 2013 14:27 GMT
#22
On April 19 2013 11:39 deakinsjt wrote:
Very useful in ZVZ, thanks

Glad to hear it
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Natalya
Profile Joined December 2011
Belgium287 Posts
April 22 2013 15:11 GMT
#23
i'm wondering about those kind of guides written to help lower leaguers but with kind of self-evident things. I think pretty much all your tricks should come to mind once you just look at your own games or watch a couple pro streams or just try and think about the game.

And I dont think you're actually helping the people that cant figure that by themselves because well, you should try and make them think of it by themselves, you should learn them how to learn instead of teaching them directly the result of your own experience. In a general way if you do not figure a lot of things by yourself you cant improve unless you're directly teached what to do. And well, unless someone take them by the hand from bronze to master, they wont get to master by a sum of those little tricks.

+ if there's a meta game developpement and they start to face new compositions/timings they'll be helpless. and well, finally, just saying, but some of your tricks are kinda questionnable, like the roach wall. Better wall your choke with them, stack drones if lings try to kill them, get a couple hits on the lings to make them leave and repeat. Unless you do have all those roaches because you wanted to push or something, you'll need half the roaches if you wall your choke.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 14:43:57
April 23 2013 14:33 GMT
#24
On April 23 2013 00:11 Natalya wrote:
i'm wondering about those kind of guides written to help lower leaguers but with kind of self-evident things. I think pretty much all your tricks should come to mind once you just look at your own games or watch a couple pro streams or just try and think about the game.

And I dont think you're actually helping the people that cant figure that by themselves because well, you should try and make them think of it by themselves, you should learn them how to learn instead of teaching them directly the result of your own experience. In a general way if you do not figure a lot of things by yourself you cant improve unless you're directly teached what to do. And well, unless someone take them by the hand from bronze to master, they wont get to master by a sum of those little tricks.

+ if there's a meta game developpement and they start to face new compositions/timings they'll be helpless. and well, finally, just saying, but some of your tricks are kinda questionnable, like the roach wall. Better wall your choke with them, stack drones if lings try to kill them, get a couple hits on the lings to make them leave and repeat. Unless you do have all those roaches because you wanted to push or something, you'll need half the roaches if you wall your choke.

Read the first sentence of the introduction, and you'll understand why I wrote this. I'm aware that it's not a ground-breaking guide, but I wouldn't have wrote it if I didn't think the information was useful.

If I understand correctly, you're saying that all the information in this guide is self-evident, and that situational tips are counter-productive for people who are trying to learn because they need to think of these things on their own. You say that new players can't learn unless someone takes them by the hand from bronze to master, but surely you can't actually believe that...people don't need someone to hold their hand and walk them to master.

You say little tips aren't important to learning players, but that's simply untrue - StarCraft II is a game of edges and you need to take advantage of every edge possible. You may be experienced in defensive ZvZ and know to position your Queen between minerals when overwhelmed by Zerglings - but not everyone is so fortunate. But why would players who don't know be at a disadvantage after reading this guide? Do you think they can't read a tip and apply it to their own games?

I really don't understand your argument about meta-game developments making people who use these defensive maneuvers "helpless" in ZvZ. It seems so far-fetched and unlikely that any substantial changes will be made to the matchup anytime soon, and even if substantial changes were made, I doubt it would effect how Zerglings, Queens, Drones, and Roaches should be managed defensively.

In the game you're talking about, the Roach-wall was the clutch defense that won the game - the Roaches were heros in terms of cost-efficiency and I lost virtually no Drones. There was no better situational positioning for those Roaches than a front-wall, and your suggestion to wall the ramp would leave my expansion completely vulnerable and most of my Roaches in a position to sit there passively instead of defend. And your suggestion to use Drones to defend that many Zerglings is suicidal. Watch the replay.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
April 23 2013 15:35 GMT
#25
The screenshot you open the thread with is not a good example.. That part can be walled off with 2 evo chambers and will leave enough space for a queen to block it.

EVO
QUEEN
EVO
.............
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 23 2013 17:55 GMT
#26
On April 24 2013 00:35 Uni1987 wrote:
The screenshot you open the thread with is not a good example.. That part can be walled off with 2 evo chambers and will leave enough space for a queen to block it.

EVO
QUEEN
EVO

Yeah evos can work, but weren't useful given the context of that game. I probably should have chosen a different title picture though.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Uni1987
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands642 Posts
April 23 2013 20:08 GMT
#27
On April 24 2013 02:55 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 00:35 Uni1987 wrote:
The screenshot you open the thread with is not a good example.. That part can be walled off with 2 evo chambers and will leave enough space for a queen to block it.

EVO
QUEEN
EVO

Yeah evos can work, but weren't useful given the context of that game. I probably should have chosen a different title picture though.


Why wouldn't that be useful for that game? Instead of the lings attacking all your roaches, they would only be able to attack 2 roaches at a time while the others can still vomit dps from behind. I can't see it, but I will shut up now :p
.............
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 23 2013 20:54 GMT
#28
On April 24 2013 05:08 Uni1987 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2013 02:55 TangSC wrote:
On April 24 2013 00:35 Uni1987 wrote:
The screenshot you open the thread with is not a good example.. That part can be walled off with 2 evo chambers and will leave enough space for a queen to block it.

EVO
QUEEN
EVO

Yeah evos can work, but weren't useful given the context of that game. I probably should have chosen a different title picture though.


Why wouldn't that be useful for that game? Instead of the lings attacking all your roaches, they would only be able to attack 2 roaches at a time while the others can still vomit dps from behind. I can't see it, but I will shut up now :p

I don't see where I would have had the time to build them, and that's 250 resources that doesn't contribute to the Roach/Ling timing I was planning. Even if I built them before his ling aggression, they would have been in the red by the time he came in.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Innovation
Profile Joined February 2010
United States284 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 22:02:22
April 23 2013 21:55 GMT
#29
Hi Tang! As always a really great guide! I would just add a few addition tips for muta wars which is particularly relevant in the current meta.

- When defending with Muta (seems obvious) fight over less important buildings, spores, queens. Even if you don't have spores or queens you gain an advantage due to the reduction of splash damage on your mutas. Do not engage in the open but also avoid taking the fight above the mineral line. Splash reduction using drones obviously not ideal.

- When attacking with Muta, bring a pack of lings with you to keep beneath your mutas. Again this is about reducing splash damage on your mutas. Avoid battles over your opponents base unless you have overwhelming muta advantage or upgrade advantage.

- If you know it's going to be a muta v muta game it is generally accepted that carapace is the superior upgrade to get first, followed by attack upgrade 1-1.

My apologies if you'd already mentioned these and I missed it.

thanks again for the awesome guides!

Edit: realized you are only talking about defensive zvz (in title dummy! talking to myself) and not general zvz.
About ChoyafOu "if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does" Idra
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 24 2013 13:56 GMT
#30
On April 24 2013 06:55 Innovation wrote:
Hi Tang! As always a really great guide! I would just add a few addition tips for muta wars which is particularly relevant in the current meta.

- When defending with Muta (seems obvious) fight over less important buildings, spores, queens. Even if you don't have spores or queens you gain an advantage due to the reduction of splash damage on your mutas. Do not engage in the open but also avoid taking the fight above the mineral line. Splash reduction using drones obviously not ideal.

- When attacking with Muta, bring a pack of lings with you to keep beneath your mutas. Again this is about reducing splash damage on your mutas. Avoid battles over your opponents base unless you have overwhelming muta advantage or upgrade advantage.

- If you know it's going to be a muta v muta game it is generally accepted that carapace is the superior upgrade to get first, followed by attack upgrade 1-1.

My apologies if you'd already mentioned these and I missed it.

thanks again for the awesome guides!

Edit: realized you are only talking about defensive zvz (in title dummy! talking to myself) and not general zvz.

Those are very important points Innovation, thanks for taking the time! If you happen to think of any similar tips for ZvZ Mutalisk engagements, let us know
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Steeeeeve
Profile Joined May 2011
United States5 Posts
April 25 2013 01:06 GMT
#31
Why is +1 Carapace a better choice for the first upgrade? My initial reaction is that it only provides a significant damage reduction percentage against mutas and queens, where as attack upgrade helps in ALL conflicts (e.g. chasing down ground units, killing overlords faster, AND battles with things which can hit air units).

Thoughts?
Let me lay it on the line, he had TWO on the vine--
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
April 25 2013 04:08 GMT
#32
On April 25 2013 10:06 Steeeeeve wrote:
Why is +1 Carapace a better choice for the first upgrade? My initial reaction is that it only provides a significant damage reduction percentage against mutas and queens, where as attack upgrade helps in ALL conflicts (e.g. chasing down ground units, killing overlords faster, AND battles with things which can hit air units).

Thoughts?


The reason is that muta's attack bounces up to three units.

It deals 9 damages to its first target.
Then 3 damages to the next target.
Then 1 damage to the last.

The armor upgrade reduces each of the damages above by 1. That's a reduction of 3 damages.

Compare this to attack upgrade.

Attack upgrade increases the first attack by 1, second attack by 0.33 and the last attack by 0.11.

Other interesting note (taken from Wiki http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

Attack is preferred against Corruptors as it increases the damage dealt to Corruptors by ~16% while Air Carapace only decreases the damage taken by ~7%. Against Hydralisks, the correct upgrade depends on what Mutalisks are being used to accomplish. Attack upgrades assist in sniping Hydralisks, Queens, and Spore Crawlers, but armor helps soak up damage, allowing more time for ground units to close with the Hydralisks.


Big Red Dog!
Steeeeeve
Profile Joined May 2011
United States5 Posts
April 25 2013 21:21 GMT
#33
Ah hah. I was assuming that the attack upgrade added one damage to each bounce. That answers the question, then. Thanks.
Let me lay it on the line, he had TWO on the vine--
TaLuS
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany17 Posts
May 10 2013 11:53 GMT
#34
Hey Tang, thanks for this guide! I heard about another method for spreading Drones vs. Banelings and would like to know how viable it is in comparison to the shown split-method:
You select all the threatened Drones, STOP them, and then press very quickly "F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click" and so on.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
May 12 2013 16:07 GMT
#35
On May 10 2013 20:53 TaLuS wrote:
Hey Tang, thanks for this guide! I heard about another method for spreading Drones vs. Banelings and would like to know how viable it is in comparison to the shown split-method:
You select all the threatened Drones, STOP them, and then press very quickly "F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click, F1, Right Mouse Click" and so on.

Hey TaLuS, that's actually an effective way to split as well as long as you have the hand-speed, I've tried it before and did it too slowly but with practice it would work. Personally I find it easier to manually split with just the mouse, but I think that the method you mention could be just as effective.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
blasceras
Profile Joined April 2010
Spain18 Posts
August 31 2013 15:50 GMT
#36
Its sad that a nice guid like this falls into oblivion. Every time i read your guides i have an urge to play the gam
Thanks for all the tutorials ! <3
Your Forces are under atack
iGn1t3
Profile Joined May 2011
Hong Kong73 Posts
September 01 2013 14:27 GMT
#37
No wonder I am a diamond zerg, considering that I never use these tricks. I will force myself to practice these by 15 h first in every zvz till I master these techniques! :p
I lose today to win tomorrow.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
09:00
WardiTV Mondays #65
CranKy Ducklings210
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 76
trigger 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2241
Bisu 981
GuemChi 684
Larva 362
Stork 353
firebathero 290
Soma 217
Light 210
Sharp 153
Mini 150
[ Show more ]
Aegong 126
Yoon 125
Killer 119
PianO 101
Pusan 98
Leta 93
hero 89
ggaemo 76
Rush 67
ZerO 66
JYJ 54
soO 42
ToSsGirL 37
sorry 36
Snow 32
Mong 31
yabsab 25
NotJumperer 25
Movie 23
ajuk12(nOOB) 21
Shinee 14
Sacsri 14
Terrorterran 14
GoRush 14
Noble 8
zelot 6
SilentControl 6
Sea.KH 4
Dota 2
singsing1345
XcaliburYe604
League of Legends
JimRising 369
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2191
x6flipin197
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor163
Other Games
summit1g8582
XaKoH 211
Fuzer 190
crisheroes165
Mew2King77
nookyyy 62
ZerO(Twitch)10
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 2
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1826
• Stunt500
• HappyZerGling115
Other Games
• WagamamaTV251
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
52m
Monday Night Weeklies
5h 52m
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.