With double forge you aren't going to be aggressive no matter what your first aoe is at least until 2/2, and more likely until 3/3.
Also no matter what your aoe choice is, if you go dt's and do zero damage holding off the medivac timing is impossible, see shy vs mkp on star station.
Which pro games and builds can you reference to show your points?
Hmm tried this.. around 8 wins 2 losses so far. Tho I can't hit the exact 7:22. Most of the time I am late by like 20 ~ 30s lol (high dia (but I beat couple of GMs and more Masters T)
So according to the guide in the Terran help me thread, 1 rax gasless FE is essentially obsolete now. Opening reaper is the way to go. And according to teoita, reaper expands are very good against this build.
Does that kill the build? We could proxy the templar tech, but they could infer that through counting pylons.Could we make a stalker and delay the build by a little bit? that certainly doesn't guarantee a failed reaper scout either. I suppose if it's scouted you could attempt to take a fast third and keep a warp prism with a dt in it near their main, but that seems unreliable as well...
It just seems to me that there are no terrans who go gasless FE.
PS- i also wanted to ask how to react against terrans who block their ramp with an early depot. All the guides I see say that it's bad to get your probe blocked out of their base. But at the same time they can guarantee this if they do it early. I suppose it delays orbital and gas? Then again they could get earlier double gas. It could mean that we get vision of any addons on the barracks but not if they queue their first 3 marines down the ramp.
1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
On April 12 2013 16:59 Teoita wrote: 1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
Okay. Thanks for the help, I'll keep that in mind. Do you ever perform the build if you scout reaper expand? Have you yourself built a stalker to defend the reaper and delayed the drop?
On April 12 2013 16:59 Teoita wrote: 1rax fe is still a viable build, but it's not the obvious best macro opening anymore.
You can't really proxy the templar tech with this build. All the tech goes down close to your second pylon, which makes it essentially impossible to hide it. Getting a stalker and delaying the drop is the best idea.
Getting your probe blocked out by a depo is no big deal, what guides are you talking about? Scouting is fairly easy, especially if you are going stalker+msc. A nice trick is to know your timings well so you can check wether he's getting an addon after his first marine, which will pop at around 3:07; if he's making a second marine immediately it will be out at 3:32. Checking between these two timings with the probe will allow you to see a low ground cc or addon being made (or reaper moving out i guess but i'm not sure on that) and that allows you to narrow down on what the T could be doing. Finally, you will never see a second gas with your probe anyway. Terran doesn't need that much gas that early.
Okay. Thanks for the help, I'll keep that in mind. Do you ever perform the build if you scout reaper expand? Have you yourself built a stalker to defend the reaper and delayed the drop?
I've done the build a couple times versus a reaper expand. I usually don't delay the robo, I don't really care if he scouts it cause it could very well be a 1 gate robo expand, in fact it may cause him to misread the build.
The twilight however has to be delayed until the first stalker is out. If he makes more than one reaper ( happened once ), then you're not going to be able to hide the twilight no matter what. But I still went for the build, although a bit delayed ( 8-8'15 ) and I think it's still effective.
Sometimes you won't be able to do eco damage, cause the Terran will put turrets in his mineral lines. But you can still destroy the tech lab researching stim, the reactor on the factory/stargate, and other key tech structures. Threat of DTs delays a bit the medivac timing push.
One important thing against reaper expand, since it forces you to delay your twilight/dark shrine by a bit, I drop my robo bay very quickly, in fact before the dark shrine is finished. The gas accumulates no matter what, and at 8'+ you'll have enough gas for your two reapers as well as the first colossus. That way, even if you do no economic damage, you can still get a couple colossus in time for the medivac timing.
It's pretty fun to see some terrans go for 1 rax gasless expo, get 2 engy bays and a third CC in-base, and get demolished by this DT play. In WoL you couldn't punish a Terran for playing greedy, this is now possible in HOTS, I love it.
This is a beautiful build with absolutely golden timings. This build feels really easy to pull off and almost magical at times with how well everything lines up (warp prism gets to opponent's base as DT shrine finishes and you have 2 idle gateways). Really love this one, would like to play around with it more.
I saw polt losing to this in zotac. So sad to watch as a terran player. You can't expect terrans to go standard double turret, because you know, there are other allins that crush you then (immortal allin, blink allin)
On April 14 2013 07:43 monkybone wrote: How does this fare against reaper openings?
From what I've seen in this thread, the general response for a reaper is getting a stalker out and delaying the DTs until around 8:00. You can try to hide the dark shrine or just put it down after you kill off the reaper. But even if the reaper scouts your dark shrine, it's not the end of the world; you can still put on some pressure and delay a terran push long enough to get colossus/charge up.
EPT
JangBi uses similar build vs 
Snow
