EPT
TAILS' 7:22 Dark Templar Drop and FE - Page 10
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
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Flanq
United Kingdom2694 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:26 Nyast wrote: The main advantage of this build is that it allows you to transition into a very economic and greedy mid-game, while staying relatively safe. Because your expanding quickly, you'll be on equal terms with the Terran until your first DTs warp in. At this point, even a low number of scv kills, delaying some tech ( snipping a tech lab ) and forcing turrets is a decent advantage. It forces the terran to be careful when leaving his base, delaying his first push until he has a decent number of scans piled up. Meanwhile you're playing fucking greedy. Two forges, robo bay, all with an indecent number of gates ( 2 for a good while.. ). You rely on DT threat and MS core to defend light pushes. One drawback of this BO, which I learned the hard way, is that it's pretty much a freeloss if your opponent was going for a 1/1/1 with a raven. But against standard play it seems very strong. I actually beat a terran going for a 1-1-1 although his raven was reactionary to my drop rather than getting it blindly, still a weird game where my extra gates finished as he sieged at my nat with 90% of his scvs, nexus cannon + immortal on tanks is so sexy. | ||
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jake1138
United States82 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
In my opinion the best move would be to chronoboost a stalker out and play a standard macro game from there. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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steff
United Kingdom40 Posts
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yokohama
United States1116 Posts
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steff
United Kingdom40 Posts
If you double gas before core then you are done one of three things Oracles DT Blink stalkers bunkers, marines and turrets shut 2 of the 3 down hard, if you can do this, take a free expansion and still be ahead why would you not ? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
If terran open widow mine he gets behind vs dt drop. If he opens reaper(wich is the best awnser to dt drop) he auto lose vs 12 gate stargate proxy ( 5:09 first oracle ) . :D | ||
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tisalgado
Brazil51 Posts
On April 10 2013 18:36 steff wrote: Yeah any reaper based build destroys this and to be honest I am seeing most terrans open reaper now so its a real tough spot to be in. how does it destroy the build? really, you've got a FE, so you won't be behind in economy... nothing keeps you from building 2 stalkers to ward off the reapers and the threat of the dark shrine should keep him in his base for a while, so you're actually free to tech to SG or robo... or just do whatever you want with DT map presence... I understand the damage is denied by a reaper opening, but not how it "destroys" the build | ||
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odeSSa
Sweden198 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 10 2013 18:56 Teoita wrote: Or you could be just fast expanding with 2 probes on each gas. The whole point of double gas before core is that it's incredibly hard for the Terran to read, while 14/20 gas or whatever is much, much more likely to be tech. Agreed. There are also some weird delayed sentry-heavy 3-gates that can hit with double gas. At this point in the metagame, double gases can really mean just about anything except a very normal 1-gate FE. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 11 2013 02:46 SC2John wrote: Agreed. There are also some weird delayed sentry-heavy 3-gates that can hit with double gas. At this point in the metagame, double gases can really mean just about anything except a very normal 1-gate FE. Double gas 1 gate FE is fairly common too. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
I understand, but they weren't quite as popular as the single-gas expands in WoL. EX: MC's 1-gate FE, HuK's 1-gate FE, PartinG's 1-gate FE or Triple Nexus build, etc., etc. Simply put, I agree, but I would still consider 1-gas expand to be the MOST common (at least in WoL). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
On April 08 2013 07:34 Tekakan wrote: I've got a long experience (since early 2011) with DT drop openings as well and I can say that teching that much behind the drop is pretty much essential to the build. Eventually the Terran is gonna save up enough scans or get a Raven so that you lose your map control and you want your army to be at a "normal" midgame level at that point which they won't be if you transition slowly out of that opening. Until the Terran can push out the DTs can always save you therefor it's not a big risk to tech that hard. Personally I usually go for Storm straight after the DT tech whilst having 2 Forges upgrading. Once Storm is started I just double expand since I still have map control and make 1 Cannon and warp in a HT per new base. With a lot of CB on the Storm upgrade I always get it in time for the Terran push. I would also say that DT openings are perfectly safe against both Reapers and Widow mines. Delaying the Twilight Council and the Dark Shrine has never been an issue for me thus far. Obviously you want them as fast as possible but going for a MCS-Stalker-WG-tech then Robo-Twilight is still a viable way to open up your DT expand build with. The entire purpose of the build is to drop your Terran opponent before he gets Medivacs and force him to be less aggressive at the 10 minute mark. And with a fast MCS you always have the Photon Overcharge to rely on if he goes for some typ of marine push or widow mine opening. Remember you get a very early Robo so geting an obs out quickly isn't really an issue. I would say that theese typ of builds are weak against Terrans that don't overreact so that they don't lose more than a couple of SCVs from the first warp in. After that they get 1-2 additional Turrets and just move out once they have stim, combat shield, medivacs and four or more scans. That push is pretty much impossible to hold if you haven't dealt enough damage. The Terran can also delay it a bit and get a Raven but that gives you more time to get storm and/or Colossus out in time. Your build is what I do as well. HT tech with charge and double forge is a lot less gas intensive than collosus with charge and double forge. Templar Archive + storm + 2 HT - 450 minerals 700 gas Robo bay + range + 2 collo = 1000 minerals + 800 gas. The tempalr archive follow up is more defensive in my opinion, and a safer option, and allows for early charge and forges. This build is like a massive tech switch into a different tech tree. At least if you are late with the storm, you can still get archon's. a single collosus without range vs a bio ball is pretty bad. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Templar are always more gas intensive, which is why you can afford Colossus and range + a few stalkers as well as blink on 2bases, but if you want to go ht you will basically only warp in zealots for a long time. You already have both a robo and a twilight council so you aren't doing an absolutely massive tech switch, either AoE requires just one building. I agree that templar tech is more defensive, but it's harder for that tech to kick in which is why DT builds more commonly go into Colossus (see hero's and rain's WoL games on Cloud Kingdom). Templar tech is doable (shy vs mkp from GSL) but a lot harder to pull off (see what happened in game 1). | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
The problem i am talking about specifically is the double forge with the collosus. Even creator prime went into chargelots HT with his double forge, where the mmajority of robo builds in WoL used single forge collosus going into double forge once +1 armour was done for a very good reason. Collosus need more gas to make an impact on the defensive than HT's do In fact that is the SOLE point of the discussion. I am saying that to go double forge WITH charge AND collo AND range is suicide if any form of disruption and/or pressure comes at you, and if you go dt's, unless you win the game right there, pressure always comes at you. Instead, if you go HT, you can get storm out in time, and hold the ten minute push easier, and then tech switch into collo. If you are wanting to be really aggressive, than collosus is great. however, if the push fails or your micro isnt good or you are off with your timings, collosus with double forge is a problem Not to mention the problem toss will have if its a fake pressure at the front and a double medivac drop on the probe line with either build. Speed medivacs after DT's aren't fun. and the correct way to counter DT's heavy tech style would be drop in a place that is not expected, especially since no one builds/correctly places obs for drop defense yet. | ||
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