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Deadpoetic0077
United States63 Posts
Has anyone tried diong a widow mine with marauder slow push? I think the only thing that would really slow this down would be a skytoss but I think that if micro'd right, ti would work out fine. Ive just been thinking about it at school today and im going to try it when I get home. Anythin that you guys can consider to be a problem with this aggression? im thinking 2 rax and 1 fact. | ||
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Rash
Mexico45 Posts
Something that I've been playing around with is gasless expo into WM, tank and rine. It hits the toss base ~10 with 2 tanks, 8 rines and 4 WM, before thermal lance finishes, and I've had ~60% winrate, since either I will take their natural, or at least contain him in 2 bases while I take my third, then transition into regular MMM with a couple WM. I have a bit of issues with fast collosi, but that's more due to my poor macro (not throwing down the starport in time) than to the general idea behind the opener. | ||
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Deadpoetic0077
United States63 Posts
Think tat would work or would it still be unable to work cause of the mothership core? | ||
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Rash
Mexico45 Posts
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
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Deadpoetic0077
United States63 Posts
Thx again for heling me flesh this out  I appreciate all the thoughts and arugments. Also sorry for poor grammer and such. On a mobile device. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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SynQ
United States19 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 10 Depot 12 Barracks (Build 2 marines when finished) 13 Refinery 15 Orbital Command 16 Depot @100 gas: Factory @100% 2x Marines: tech lab on Barracks @100% Factory: Widow Mine @100% Tech Lab: Marauder @50 Gas: Concussive Shells From there you keep constructing Mines and Marauders as well as depots as needed. Eventually you will expand and start working towards Bio/Mine or Bio/Hellbat. I've found it effective at countering several different all ins such as blink all in or 3 Gate Stargate w/ Oracles. It also works wonders against most FEs. It is weak vs early Robotics Facility or if you get really unlucky with your widow mine hits. Most notably, it hits just before the Protoss has enough energy for overcharge, allowing you to burrow your mines in their mineral line. It feels a lot like a KR 2rax (1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab), but the main difference is that your expand is a bit later and you get Medivacs later. Even though your tech and macro is delayed I think it makes up for it with the extra strength of mines and the ability to defend against Stargate play more easily than a KR 2rax would. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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Ozlo
United States30 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
1) Flash's 3CC concussive shell build into bio/mine. This is a macro build that will get you on even footing with the protoss player and take away any kind of map control your opponent has, with the flexibility to transition into an 11-minute MMM timing. You could do a variant on this, emphasizing marauders and mines over marines/medivacs (once you identify you opponent hasn't opened Stargate). 2) Proxy marauders into defensive widow mines. Proxy marauders would be early enough to shut down a really fast FE and cause some damage, and would allow you to get your economy up and safely protected by mines and a bunker. I feel like you would also need a 3rd CC with this build in order to catch up to protoss. Those are my quick thoughts on marauder/mine. It just costs too much time and money to get early; you'd be better off with a combination like marine/tank for early pushes. | ||
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FitCH
Canada3 Posts
10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 gas 15 OC 16 factory barracks when you can tech lab on first barracks after 3 marines, concussive shells from there pump rine, marauder, widow mine. if he expos, try to lure first stalker into first widow mine, when you have 2 rauders move out, he should lose his expo (if he overcharges just wait it out and keep pumping units) if he does expo, you have a really good set up to defend anything. I'm 90% with this build on masters EDIT: whoops someone else already posted this build | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 05 2013 09:40 FitCH wrote: Do this build: 10 supply depot 12 barracks 13 gas 15 OC 16 factory barracks when you can tech lab on first barracks after 3 marines, concussive shells from there pump rine, marauder, widow mine. if he expos, try to lure first stalker into first widow mine, when you have 2 rauders move out, he should lose his expo (if he overcharges just wait it out and keep pumping units) if he does expo, you have a really good set up to defend anything. I'm 90% with this build on masters EDIT: whoops someone else already posted this build Question: I suppose this isn't fully in the meta yet, but what do you do against a protoss player who opens stargate after expand? Worst case scenario, protoss can cancel the nexus and FF the ramp. Meanwhile, you have no real options against oracles or a void ray followup. 3 marines will not repel an oracle, and with this build, I don't think you float enough resources to add in an ebay for turrets. In the event that you save yourself from an SCV massacre by oracle, how do you deal with followup pressure whereby protoss cleans up any additional mines with oracle + stalker? Also, I suppose in the interest of understanding this fully, what is your followup after this incredibly short BO? Do you take expansion then add 2 rax? Do you add 2 rax then take expansion? Do you get a barracks + ebay? You say "pump rine/marauder/widow mine", but from what collection of buildings? The build you mention has just a techlab barracks + a naked factory. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:10 SynQ wrote: I've found it effective at countering several different all ins such as blink all in or 3 Gate Stargate w/ Oracles. It also works wonders against most FEs. It is weak vs early Robotics Facility or if you get really unlucky with your widow mine hits. Most notably, it hits just before the Protoss has enough energy for overcharge, allowing you to burrow your mines in their mineral line. It feels a lot like a KR 2rax (1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab), but the main difference is that your expand is a bit later and you get Medivacs later. Even though your tech and macro is delayed I think it makes up for it with the extra strength of mines and the ability to defend against Stargate play more easily than a KR 2rax would. Since I was asking about the same build, can you explain how you can attack before MsC has energy for overcharge? Are you talking about the standard 1-gate FE or the MsC expand? With a MsC expand + MsC/stalker poke, the MsC has just enough energy to overcharge the nexus as soon as it finishes. Just some thoughts. | ||
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SynQ
United States19 Posts
On April 05 2013 09:52 SC2John wrote: Question: I suppose this isn't fully in the meta yet, but what do you do against a protoss player who opens stargate after expand? Worst case scenario, protoss can cancel the nexus and FF the ramp. Meanwhile, you have no real options against oracles or a void ray followup. 3 marines will not repel an oracle, and with this build, I don't think you float enough resources to add in an ebay for turrets. In the event that you save yourself from an SCV massacre by oracle, how do you deal with followup pressure whereby protoss cleans up any additional mines with oracle + stalker? Also, I suppose in the interest of understanding this fully, what is your followup after this incredibly short BO? Do you take expansion then add 2 rax? Do you add 2 rax then take expansion? Do you get a barracks + ebay? You say "pump rine/marauder/widow mine", but from what collection of buildings? The build you mention has just a techlab barracks + a naked factory. The widow mines are there to protect against early Stargate play. You can transition however you want. Typically, I take an expo and transition into MMM with either widow mines or Hellbats. | ||
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SynQ
United States19 Posts
On April 05 2013 09:55 SC2John wrote: Since I was asking about the same build, can you explain how you can attack before MsC has energy for overcharge? Are you talking about the standard 1-gate FE or the MsC expand? With a MsC expand + MsC/stalker poke, the MsC has just enough energy to overcharge the nexus as soon as it finishes. Just some thoughts. I am mostly talking about 1gate expo, as it is what I mostly see on ladder. I do not know the specific timings, but you can test it out yourself in unranked to see how well it works. :D I believe that you can still deny mining at the expo if he goes for MsC expo if you tank the overcharge with marauder and run to the mineral line with the mines. I am still trying to work out the specifics with this build. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
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Ruin
United States271 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 06 2013 02:28 Aiursc wrote: The reason why protoss have been playing more greedy is because of the mothership core. If you want to hit a timing make sure you hit before photon overcharge is ready. i know 10 marines (without medivac and upgrades) can not kill an planetary nexus, they will all die. Better go for high damage output. I think your best bet against Protos would be a thorpush (it takes ages before a planetary nexus kills a thor). Build 1 tank, 2 thors, 1 upgrade and marines out of 2 rax, roll out around 8 minutes, with minimum of 4 scv's on each of the thors for repair. Only threat are immortals so kill them first (it wil work, because the scv's will stall the damage output of the immortals). After that, kill all the artosis pylons so he is supplyblocked and cant produce more immortals = Win. With 2 Thors in your composition u reape Nexi in around 10 seconds | ||
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Galfi
Brazil56 Posts
- 10 depot - 12 rax - 13 gas - 16 oc - 16 depot - proxy factory push with 4~5 marines and 1 mine, add the second widow mine to the push as soon as it pops... expo behind it. In tvp ur normally go BIO, so the factory isnt that usefull at all, u just proxy it and slowly "mini-siege" the stalkers using the marines as shields and the mine as a miniature tank, when the second mine pops they usually abandon the expo and go take a robo in main, it's hard to take the nexus down, but u severely delay their economy and if u do it correctly, gets almost no losses, u can safely retreat with everything... also, just float the factory away and they go for it, so you can make ur starport | ||
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Infinite976
United States92 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:00 govie wrote: i know 10 marines (without medivac and upgrades) can not kill an planetary nexus, they will all die. Better go for high damage output. I think your best bet against Protos would be a thorpush (it takes ages before a planetary nexus kills a thor). Build 1 tank, 2 thors, 1 upgrade and marines out of 2 rax, roll out around 8 minutes, with minimum of 4 scv's on each of the thors for repair. Only threat are immortals so kill them first (it wil work, because the scv's will stall the damage output of the immortals). After that, kill all the artosis pylons so he is supplyblocked and cant produce more immortals = Win. With 2 Thors in your composition u reape Nexi in around 10 seconds This sounds pretty fun, do you have a replay or BO for it? Thanks in advance! | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 06 2013 02:14 SynQ wrote: The widow mines are there to protect against early Stargate play. You can transition however you want. Typically, I take an expo and transition into MMM with either widow mines or Hellbats. Well, yes the mines CAN protect against stargate play, but not if you're aggressively pushing with them. If you're doing a timing at 5:30 with 2 widow mines, you have to defensively burrow your next 2 mines in your mineral field in order to survive an oracle counter. And even then, once 1-2 phoenixes are on the field, you're fairly unprotected again until you can afford to get up turrets. Theoretically, it's possible to deal with a stargate opening with this opening, but it would be a stretch and limit a lot of your possibilities. Also, if terran brings 2 SCVs, there should be NO WAY to get a bunker up against nexus cannon lol (just FF on SCVs). On April 06 2013 04:14 Galfi wrote: I've seen MMA do a proxy factory + 4~5 marines push that severely DELAY protoss expo while getting ur expo in a regular time... the build is like: - 10 depot - 12 rax - 13 gas - 16 oc - 16 depot - proxy factory push with 4~5 marines and 1 mine, add the second widow mine to the push as soon as it pops... expo behind it. In tvp ur normally go BIO, so the factory isnt that usefull at all, u just proxy it and slowly "mini-siege" the stalkers using the marines as shields and the mine as a miniature tank, when the second mine pops they usually abandon the expo and go take a robo in main, it's hard to take the nexus down, but u severely delay their economy and if u do it correctly, gets almost no losses, u can safely retreat with everything... also, just float the factory away and they go for it, so you can make ur starport I like this post a lot. A little marine/mine pressure is so incredibly different from concussive marauder/mine aggression and far more flexible in transitioning safely. In my opinion, marines are far more useful in the early game, marauders shine in the mid- to late-game, so this is the "correct" build. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:00 govie wrote: i know 10 marines (without medivac and upgrades) can not kill an planetary nexus, they will all die. Better go for high damage output. I think your best bet against Protos would be a thorpush (it takes ages before a planetary nexus kills a thor). Build 1 tank, 2 thors, 1 upgrade and marines out of 2 rax, roll out around 8 minutes, with minimum of 4 scv's on each of the thors for repair. Only threat are immortals so kill them first (it wil work, because the scv's will stall the damage output of the immortals). After that, kill all the artosis pylons so he is supplyblocked and cant produce more immortals = Win. With 2 Thors in your composition u reape Nexi in around 10 seconds Are you talking about off of 1-base or 2-base? This sounds like it can only happen off of 1-base; the correct response for protoss is to keep making probes and start warping in mass units from 3-4 gates early. Mass gateway will destroy any kind of a 1-base timing attack from terran. | ||
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