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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9UvYnFi.jpg)
Introduction
One strategy you will face in PvP from bronze to grand master is the infamous cannon rush. I think the most protoss player know that daybreak is good cannon rush map for you can wall in your cannon behind the mineral line. People have done this since daybreak release. So I decide to wrote a simple guide about how to cannonrush on daybreak for the player who don´t know how to do.
On season three and four 2012 I play 126 PvP on daybreak. And I won 107 games and loose 19 games. Some loose was cuz I miss click and etc. I am no machine so I can make mistake too The win rate with this build is 85% on 126 game. And this is not against low league player. This is against master player and some gm player I face on ladder. This was on WoL, but it will work exact the same in hots.
Build order
+ Show Spoiler +-9 pylon
- send your tenth probe to his base
-13 forge, send this probe to his base too
-270-300 mineral start cannon rush
Why just 13 forge. And not 12 forge 14 forge?
+ Show Spoiler +It is because we want start our cannon rush when we got around 270-300 mineral in bank. Why just then we come back later to. And by experience I know it work best with 13 probes then, two who cannon rush and 11 who mine. Here is a diagram there I test 12 forge 12 probe, 13 forge 13probe and 14 forge 14 probe. I test really quick against how much mineral u got in different time with 12,13,14 forge. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bMJuCwr.png)
How to wall behind his mineral line
+ Show Spoiler +We want to start our cannon rush around 270-300 mineral. Because we want to have enough mineral to put up two pylons, cancel one, put up 2 more, build cannon then more pylon and cannon. So we need to have a little bank so we can keep walling. When u got around 270 mineral you build your first pylon, then so quick as possible your second on this location that I show in the picture below. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tYTPqPk.jpg) Now u got some time to bm or troll him. And check how he response. It is 4 cases: 1: He attack pylon number one, 2: He attack pylon number two. 3: He attacks both pylons. 4: He build new nexus and "restart" Case 1: If he attack pylon number one you build two more pylon behind it and cancel pylon number one when it is 99% finish. Then put up a cannon. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ndE0yPB.jpg) Case 2: If he attack pylon number two u just build pylon behind it and and cancel pylon number two when it is 99% finish. Then put up a cannon. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9KaJFom.jpg) Case 3: If he attack booth pylon, you build two pylons behind pylon number one, cancel pylon number one when it is 99% finish and then cannon, then pylon behind pylon number two. And then one more cannon more or a pylon depend on the situation. Often it doesn’t matter so just put that u think is fun ^_^ Why shall we start wall behind pylon number one before pylon number two? This is because of pylon number one can be attack by 6 probe , and pylon number two just by 4 probe, So we need to secure that side first. Case 4: If he throw down a nexus and try "restart" it will be ez win for u. Start build probe, build gate way and throw down gas. The easiest way to win now is to just go a simple four gate and you win. Try to build cannon to snipe his tech building like gateway and core in his main base.
Forgeplacement.
+ Show Spoiler +Many players who cannon rush on this map place their pylon and forge at the ramp so you can wall of quick with cannon behind. That is good, but not perfect. We need a good placement so we can defend if he takes all his probe and 1-3 zealot to your base for a counter attack, and good placement so we can defend if the other player cannon rush you. And defend proxy 2 gate inside your base. We shall place our buildning like this ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jYRN2cs.jpg)
Cannonrush vs Cannonrush
+ Show Spoiler +Like I said this map is popular for PvP cannon rush, So you will often face other guy that cannon rush you. If he cannon rush you, our buildingplacement will help us to defend it. This is one reason why u not should build the pylon and forge at the top of the ramp. For now can you just build cannon in your mineral line to defend his cannon rush. And then go for your own cannon rush. If he go same or similar buildingplacement as you, don´t even try to cannon rush, it will fail. Just drop quick gateway and go macro mode. But if he is dumb like a true toss is, he build his pylon at the ramp you can try to cannon rush behind his mineral line. He needs to build a pylon beside his mineral line to put up cannon to defend against this, so your cannon will finish a couple of second before his. So just keep build cannon and focus fire his cannon and the victory is yours.
How to counter this.
+ Show Spoiler +You can´t let him make wall, If he make the wall you have loose. So you need prevent the wall. One way is to just get a probe behind the mineral line or on the position there pylon one or two shall be placed. Then he can´t make a wall. But on this way we lose mining time and we don’t know if he even going to cannon rush us. So we solve this problem with buildingplacement. When I play macro game PvP on daybreak I use this buildingplacement to prevent him from cannon rush me. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hAnO79R.jpg) If my first pylon is on this spot it prevent him from create a wall with pylon behind my mineral line. So I never have to worry about cannon rush A other buildingplacement that counter this cannon rush is this ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eZF5JHM.jpg) This building is more safe, but u got less place to put other building on.
What shall I do if cannon rush and he got this counter building placement or got probe behind his mineral line to prevent my wall?
+ Show Spoiler + Well you are pretty much fuck for life. But you can try to see if you can improvise a good wall in some corner of his base and try cannon rush there.
Replay
+ Show Spoiler +
So now I hope more player start to cannon rush on ladder  cya
Edit+ Show Spoiler +
*add one counter buldingplacment under spoiler "How to counter this"
*add one cast game between mc and feast on daybreak under spoiler "Replay"
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Sorry, but this Build is as old as the map is.
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While the strategy is simple and cheesy, in terms of guides this is actually quite excellent. The OP clearly has done his research, the writing is informative + concise, and there are plenty of pictures and replays. Good job!
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On March 26 2013 23:42 Yes.We.Can wrote:
Sorry, but this Build is as old as the map is.
So what? No one else took the time to write it up so clearly. Thanks for the guide OP!
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On March 26 2013 23:42 Yes.We.Can wrote:
Sorry, but this Build is as old as the map is.
Way to not even read it, 3rd sentence in the OP:
People have done this since daybreak release.
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Delete post i hate this !!!
So annoyed everytime someone does this -.-
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On March 26 2013 23:55 Mellon wrote:
Delete post i hate this !!!
So annoyed everytime someone does this -.-
This OP offers you means of countering it... Read and be happy.
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I remember encountering this a few times on the ladder, seemed prominent around a year ago. I've recently been thinking I should stray off from my no cheese play and start mixing up my play a bit more. I think this will be a good start, and it is a well written and easy to follow guide. Even if I don't end up using it, the idea of using your first pylon to prevent his wall is something that I never thought about, so I already got something out of this guide, thanks!
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Well written guide. I enjoyed reading it even if i'm terran! WP OP!
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So now I hope more player start to cannon rush on ladder cya
Why? From my point of view, cannon rush isn't helpful at all for players. They get some free wins against lower league players and when faced against some who can easily beat they hit a wall and have no idea how to play standard. Of course you could cannon rush at high level with some practice, but it's extremely boring and eliminates skill out of the equation.
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On March 27 2013 00:29 Kinon wrote:Why? From my point of view, cannon rush isn't helpful at all for players. They get some free wins against lower league players and when faced against some who can easily beat they hit a wall and have no idea how to play standard. Of course you could cannon rush at high level with some practice, but it's extremely boring and eliminates skill out of the equation.
Cannon rush is a good strategy to use in a BO series in a tournament to mix up your game. And maybe people start thinking more about building placement etc. And not throw down building at retard place and then whine about cannon rush. The goal with the game is winning and how you do it dosen´t matter ?
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also if you manage to build pylon one but he prevents you from building pynon 2 you can wall off 1 canon with gate and pylona to the left of the first pylon. very useful as well
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On March 27 2013 00:29 Kinon wrote:Why? From my point of view, cannon rush isn't helpful at all for players. They get some free wins against lower league players and when faced against some who can easily beat they hit a wall and have no idea how to play standard. Of course you could cannon rush at high level with some practice, but it's extremely boring and eliminates skill out of the equation.
Some players, including myself, have to resort to ladder as our only way of good practice. In my case I just don't have any steady practice partners. If I am going to a LAN and need to practice builds, I practice them on ladder. If I eventually want to practice cheese for a LAN guess what? I am going to practice it on the ladder.
You can't possibly generalize that anyone that cheeses on ladder has no idea or ability to play a straight up macro game well. Kind of a closed minded view on the subject, though I do understand, cheese isn't exactly respected much in the laddering community.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 26 2013 23:56 Cokefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:55 Mellon wrote:
Delete post i hate this !!!
So annoyed everytime someone does this -.- This OP offers you means of countering it... Read and be happy.
Indeed. He offered a simple pylon placement that I will now start using in PvP on Daybreak. Quite helpful really.
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Hi, nice guide.
Question: For the counter strategy by placing a pylon near the 1 spot, could the opponent use that as a partial wall and build a second pylon next to it to complete the wall on spot 1? And then proceed with the build?
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On March 27 2013 00:29 Kinon wrote:Why? From my point of view, cannon rush isn't helpful at all for players. They get some free wins against lower league players and when faced against some who can easily beat they hit a wall and have no idea how to play standard. Of course you could cannon rush at high level with some practice, but it's extremely boring and eliminates skill out of the equation.
People cheesing me on the ladder helps me learn how to defend cheese. If nobody cheesed then someone would come along one day and dominate everyone. Like the old phrase goes, In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
So frankly i love it when people cheese me and one day when i feel i have my "standard" builds down with a degree of comfort i might start to introduce some cheese or all-in's into my own gameplay.
Don't think of cheese as a dishonourable, bad mannered or bad, think of it as a highly refined early game build which if you defend gives you a mid-late game advantage.
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On March 27 2013 04:33 alaug wrote:
Hi, nice guide.
Question: For the counter strategy by placing a pylon near the 1 spot, could the opponent use that as a partial wall and build a second pylon next to it to complete the wall on spot 1? And then proceed with the build?
u can´t use that pylon to a partiall wall. One way your opponent could do is like this
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lu47Uzw.jpg)
I don´t really know if you can break that wall with probe and zealot before cannon is finish, I think you can but not sure. Remember when you attack the wall, Micro you probes so maximum number probe hit the pylonwall, if u micro the probe you can get 1-2 probe more to hit the pylonwall then if you "attack click" on the pylonwall.
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to be quite honest, this isn't necessarily the most effective way to cannon rush on daybreak, rather then doing a 3 pylon wall, you can do a 2 pylon wall and have room for a gateway to block your cannon making it almost impossible to bust into attacking range of your cannon
http://imgur.com/NMr5iDQ,uNJgJfb,wQrcXWC,QLKPfiL
you of course only want to make the gateway and additional pylon if they are attacking your first 2 initial pylons with probes
with this method you can actually start your cannon rush much sooner, and the gateway is impossible to bust before the cannon is already done, it doesn't matter if they have probes on the pylons the entire time, the cannon will still go up and be safe, with your method if probes are attacking the pylons and they chrono out zealots, they can hold (sometimes)
rather then canceling the pylons you can just let them die and have another pylon or the gateway already building
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On March 27 2013 06:11 puppylisk wrote:to be quite honest, this isn't necessarily the most effective way to cannon rush on daybreak, rather then doing a 3 pylon wall, you can do a 2 pylon wall and have room for a gateway to block your cannon making it almost impossible to bust into attacking range of your cannon http://imgur.com/NMr5iDQ,uNJgJfb,wQrcXWC,QLKPfiLyou of course only want to make the gateway and additional pylon if they are attacking your first 2 initial pylons with probes with this method you can actually start your cannon rush much sooner, and the gateway is impossible to bust before the cannon is already done, it doesn't matter if they have probes on the pylons the entire time, the cannon will still go up and be safe, with your method if probes are attacking the pylons and they chrono out zealots, they can hold (sometimes) rather then canceling the pylons you can just let them die and have another pylon or the gateway already building
We talking about this two different wall
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hioAi4v.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gElHKEp.jpg)
Before wrote about a better way you maybe should read what I wrote first, I never said block with 3 pylon. I do the stranded 2 pylon block. Then block with more pylon behind it. And yeha I know you can block with gateway too. The only you win with gateway block is 25 mineral. Because I wall with 2 extra pylon and cancel one. That is 175 mineral vs a gateway that cost 150 mineral. So you can start u cannon rush 25 mineral earlier.
And u can brake down the gateway before it finish. Cuz it can be attack by 6 probe and 6 probe take down a full health gateway on 50 second. So if he want take down the gateway he will. And it will go faster then 50 second too. Because he will have zealot to hit it after a time and the gatway is not fully helth when we start attacking it. And when he destroy your gateway you got much less place to more wall ( you got no more place) so he have bigger surface to hit your cannon.
Or u just destroy all pylon that power the cannon, Cuz if u block with gateway you got less pylon that power the cannon. I think if u play optimal u can brake this cannon rush with the gateway wall. But I am not sure
And no I must cancel my pylon to afford new block and cannon.
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On March 26 2013 23:42 Yes.We.Can wrote:
Sorry, but this Build is as old as the map is.
Actually I'm pretty sure canon rushes have been around since the beginning of Starcraft 1. They have stood the test of time, my friend. Excellent guide, Troopshunter!
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Good guide on the cannon rush, however your building placement at home is not good. The reason people wall at the ramp is because if you don't, the opponent can make 2 stalkers and kill you.
In my experience, you can also only make one pylon behind pylon number 1 if they attack it. This leaves one space for a probe to attack and later on a zealot but he can never kill the cannon. You on the other hand can start your gateway at home much sooner and save your probe trapped behind his mineral line .
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Holy fuck please let's not propagate this type of play...I can't handle it.
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will be very careful on ladder when this map comes up lol
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This is by far the best cannon-rushing guide I've ever seen. Props to OP!
One thing -- the benefits of building your first pylon elsewhere have already been mentioned above. I don't think pulling a probe for a couple seconds is that bad to block the first location you described, especially since a few seconds can mean the difference between a win and a loss.
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I don't hate the guide, I think it's well done, and I think cheesy players are essential in helping real players develop their builds. But why do people cannon rush? Do people actually have fun flipping coins? I can understand people achievement hunting, but I imagine cannon rushers aren't all trying to get achievements. Also I bet they enjoy gambling at casinos.
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We need more guides like this. This is a very detailed guide on a strategy on a particular map. I like it, and I'm not even a Protoss player People condemning/complaining about cannon rush are missing the point. Keep up your good work, troopshunter!!
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I hate this build soooooooo~ much I had a friend do it to me in 30 games just to perfect its defense. Now if someone does this to me I smack him like a house fly and bm him to hell. Still a good guide, it will result in more free wins in PvP for me :D. Also people having troubles facing this build will be able to get better understanding of it. GJ ^^
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I think cheesy play should be encouraged as hard as possible *because* I like a macro game. "Cheese" is what sets the bar for greedy play compared to standard play. I like doing macro builds but I don't want to get three bases for free in the first 5 minutes unless that's actually, truly optimal. Greed and Cheese are oppposite sides of the same coin and I enjoy STANDARD play, so guides like this actually encourage the playstyle I enjoy.
ED: Also, to the OP, your guide is exceptional and cannon rushing is a "noob, basic strat" or whatever but your guide is pretty dang optimal, I certainly could do no better so props to you mate.
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Nice write-up! I always hold my breath when enemy scouting probe does the usual scout circle behind them minerals on this map
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I've been doing for a long time pretty similar to this. Exact same forge placement and 13 probes as well, funny to see I was roughly equal with an expert in this.
I did 13 probes but started to wall a bit earlier though which sometimes leads to problems if they choose to attack both pylons because i don't have enough money to rewall behind it.
If you attack too late they have a fair shot with just rebuilding a nexus because they can actually continue to keep mining with 4 probes for a long time from the orignal nexus usually.
I think the first pylon placement is a good way to defend this, actually filling the space with a gateway is not that great because you can use the wall against him by just walling with 2 pylons on the other end and then eventually a pylon to block out a zealot if neccesary.
I also believe it's possible to glitch a probe past the left pylon and get in the spot to kill the probe. If you build a pylon while your probe stands just on the edge the probe will glitch past it i think, if you just do this with two probes you can defend it but I'm not exactly sure if this is possible. I tend to be the cannoner too and not the defender.
edit: the gateway way is indeed worse than the double pylon wall. Gateway blocking can be started later than pylon block and takes up more of your own valuable room.
Overall knowing how to do these kind of cannon rushes is really useful, daybreak may be the only map having this at the main but there are more maps with nice cannon spots behind natural or third that are good to use against zerg. Perhaps you could update with small list of those?
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On April 05 2013 19:20 StarcraftGuy4U wrote:
I think cheesy play should be encouraged as hard as possible *because* I like a macro game. "Cheese" is what sets the bar for greedy play compared to standard play. I like doing macro builds but I don't want to get three bases for free in the first 5 minutes unless that's actually, truly optimal. Greed and Cheese are oppposite sides of the same coin and I enjoy STANDARD play, so guides like this actually encourage the playstyle I enjoy.
ED: Also, to the OP, your guide is exceptional and cannon rushing is a "noob, basic strat" or whatever but your guide is pretty dang optimal, I certainly could do no better so props to you mate.
Cheese is generally known as something that is significantly weaker or has no chance of success once scouted, such as cannon rushing. I think what you are thinking of is all-in or heavy aggression play. That is what will test the limits of how greedy someone can be. Cannon rushing is hoping that someone doesn't scout your cannons. Although this guide seems to offer a cannon rush that is revealed immediately and should be stopped mechanically or prevented using building placement, it still does not test the limits of how greedy someone can be. It doesn't really offer anything substantial as far as long term growth for either player.
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excellent guide. The op clearly understands how to execute the daybreak cannon rush to perfection.
Please write more cannon guides in the future. I'm sure many protoss players could benefit!
edit:
I'd also like to add some input to this guide. While your anti-cannon rush building placements are correct, there are problems placing other buildings/some safety issues as you outlined in your post. A safe anti-cannon method on this map I have found is by placing your 2nd pylon on 15 (before 2:30 in game time) behind the minerals (as shown in your 2nd image with the pylon/gateway).
The pylon placement alone (without the additional gateway) will actually prevent cannon rushes from being successful due to the amt of surface area available for cannons to be placed. You can pull probes, attack pylons and get in there to destroy the cannon with probes + zealot.
also the reason i outlined 2:30 as the in game time is b/c often this is the time where the 1st pylon is placed down and the cannon rush begins. aka, if your probe isn't behind the minerals already and put this pylon down, its pretty much gg.
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Many thanks, guides like this are always appreciated
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EPT
