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On March 15 2013 22:03 Drimacus wrote:Great guide. Thanks a lot for that! The build against terran is based on the opening of the terran. So whats the usual gas timing for those reaper builds? Edit: For ZvT I like Muta over Infestors, so if I understand correctly for me it's basicly like this.. Please correct me if I'm wrong. + Show Spoiler +
That is actually pretty damn nice. You can make it for ZvZ and ZvP too, and then Blade can add it to the original post as the end note. :D
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Wow, just wow. Thanks for the guide, thought, as a terran player, I will mainly read the section about ZvT diligently. 
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This guide was a huge life saver. Really improved all my match ups thanks blade.
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Hey blade, what do you think of DRG's 10 roach opener for hots? (zvt)
Personally, it's been my go-to opener just because it makes me feel very safe versus terran pressure, and allows me to absolutely shit on them half the time.
Having played during the beta extensively, I started relying on more aggressive openers and playstyles to try and delay the lategame, simply because I had a shit time winning once it got there.
Anyway, I'm only speaking from a mid-master perspective, and was wondering what you thought of it as a GM.
EDIT: What do you think of mass ling in zvz? I played with a bit in the beta, running off only two gas for upgrades, and then pumping zergling off of 3 + hatcheries, followed by as many mutli pronged attacks as you can possibly pull off.
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blade55555 nice work! Even tho I wish all zerg would die muhahahah
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On March 16 2013 05:16 InfCereal wrote:
Hey blade, what do you think of DRG's 10 roach opener for hots? (zvt)
Personally, it's been my go-to opener just because it makes me feel very safe versus terran pressure, and allows me to absolutely shit on them half the time.
Having played during the beta extensively, I started relying on more aggressive openers and playstyles to try and delay the lategame, simply because I had a shit time winning once it got there.
Anyway, I'm only speaking from a mid-master perspective, and was wondering what you thought of it as a GM.
EDIT: What do you think of mass ling in zvz? I played with a bit in the beta, running off only two gas for upgrades, and then pumping zergling off of 3 + hatcheries, followed by as many mutli pronged attacks as you can possibly pull off.
I don't like a 10 roach opener I think that's kinda bad especially if the terran can see that coming (which they will with reapers which every terran should open).
For mass ling in zvz it's pretty much an all in if you are doing that as you are spending a lot of larva on lings, less drones and obviously you aren't teching very much is my assumption if that's all you are doing. I am not a fan of it either. It's a strategy you may want to use every once in awhile but as a main strategy I would highly recommend not doing that.
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Bumping this real fast to let you all know I added a bio + widow mine section. Hopefully put enough detail in there, for those to lazy to look for it you can view it in spoilers here.
+ Show Spoiler +Bio + widow mine combination
The bio + widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of tvz. It is superior to tanks in the fact that widow mines are super mobile and once drilling claws is upgraded they burrow in 1 second. This makes the bio + widow mine a very strong and hard to engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane with some roaches and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only 1 ling, zerg needs to be sending 4-5 to detonate some mines.
A good terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that they can prevent 1 ling and sometimes even 5 lings from detonating a mine. A terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the zerg. Flanking the terran army is almost a must so that widow mines don't hit all the zergs units. If the zerg can hit from 2 different angles widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would if the zerg attacks in one direction. If the zerg has roaches sending in a roach with a couple lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or 2.
Swarmhosts are a very strong unit verse bio + widow mine, but if you go that composition the zerg needs to be prepared for drop play. Drop play is something that can punish this composition if the zerg isn't prepared for drops he can die. Another composition that can be good is going muta/ling/bane into swarmhost which allows the zerg to deal with drops much, much easier and then swarmhosts deal with widow mines very good due to the locusts being strong and tanking a few shots.
There are a couple replays show casing the muta/ling/bane -> swarmhost transition and how it deals with bio + widow mine so feel free to download those to see it in action.
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Oh man, as a Diamond Zerg you just made my brain explode. There's tons of information and it's all put together in a way that makes it really digestible and not a single word seems superfluous. I see myself coming back many times to this thread inbetween games after I get my butt kicked on ladder
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On March 16 2013 09:48 Emzeeshady wrote:
This is fantastic man!
I would LOVE for a detailed guide on how to beat sky toss because right now I see no way and it is keeping me from making it back to masters -_-.
Make sure to watch the zvp replays there should be a templar/voidray replay in there, I will be adding in some more some time soon which will show case how I crushed voidray/tempests/colo/templar :D
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Blade, amazing guide
Still having trouble dealing with late game mech. Eventually they have a ton of widow mines + vikings and only a few thors/hellbats. I seem to lose all of my vipers and overseers right as I'm cutting through his hellbats and then the widow mines make quick work of the rest of my army. You have any thoughts on how to deal with this?
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On March 16 2013 11:29 Shado. wrote:
Blade, amazing guide
Still having trouble dealing with late game mech. Eventually they have a ton of widow mines + vikings and only a few thors/hellbats. I seem to lose all of my vipers and overseers right as I'm cutting through his hellbats and then the widow mines make quick work of the rest of my army. You have any thoughts on how to deal with this?
You should have swarmhosts. Remember swarmhost/hydra/ultra/viper is the best composition imo vs mech. And thors/hellbats die to swarmhosts really bad to  .
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Thanks so much for all your work on this guide! It got me through placement matches (2 vT, 3 vZ).
I have one request for clarification on ZvP.
This section will be most beneficial if you already know the basic ZvP openings.
If you need any more clarification just ask and we will answer!
Where does one find the "basic ZvP openings"? (I first referred to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401063#3.0, but your build is different and that guide was made for WoL). I haven't played much 1v1 since the first year of WoL (I play zerg), so I'm not sure exactly what the ZvP opening is supposed to be like now. As a newb I really like having it written out so I can refer to it while I practice. As your guide advised, I checked out the vods and replays and here's what I was able to derive so far:
9 overlord (scout for proxies)
15 pool
16 hatch (can send two drones; one to nat, one to third in case of pylon block at nat)
16 overlord
15 lings (get queen before lings if it's a nexus first FFE)
16 lings
17 queen (inject->tumor->injects)
19 continue droning
21-22 3rd hatch
22 overlord
24 queen (at natural: inject and send to third)
33 overlord
34 queen (at natural)
Is that about right? Also do you have a recommendation for basic openings for facing non-FFE openings in HotS? If you could eventually add or link to basics in this guide that'd be a big help for newbs like me.
Thanks again to you and your editors for all your work!
P.S. One of the three replays, the one named "ZvP Belshir", was actually a ZvZ.
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Man do i wish Terran could get something like this, nice guide.
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So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things:
1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough)
2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
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On March 16 2013 14:53 MrLlama wrote:
So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things:
1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough)
2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing)
Hm I don't think a 6 gate msc timing will kill a third base if you defend properly. It's definitely harder but you should be able to hold it if you see it coming, I haven't faced much 6 gate but I can normally hold it off on the few times I have faced it with the msc.
To be honest I think it just depends on how fast you scout the gateway all in coming, throwing down a spore isn't a bad idea anymore just because of what tosses do or to have it attack the msc. I could be wrong I would have to face 6 gate a lot more to know but I don't think so but I also haven't played verse it that much.
So as of right now no I don't think it's dead, I think if that were the case I would be facing a lot more 6 gate msc attacks (especially on korea) if it was impossible to hold.
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On March 16 2013 15:48 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 14:53 MrLlama wrote:
So I do have a question/statement that I suppose I'd like to toss out there:
In my ZvP experience, the 3 base opener no longer works because it always loses to the +1 6gate timing with mama core. The main problem of course being 2 things:
1. nothing for zerg can shoot up at that time besides the queen but the core and the stalkers take that out pretty quickly, which then leaves the core to just pound away at everything (it's not a lot of damage but it's enough)
2. Time warp prevents surrounds and really keeps me from being able to engage his army effectively, I think this is the real troublesome part because it allows him to just pick my army apart in what would already be a close fight without time warp.
I have faced this a few times on ladder and a couple of times in practice and I just can't seem to have an answer. Some games I try a faster speed for my lings so it's out by that time but that doesn't work, other times I try some roaches but time warp and mothership core aerial attacks are killing me.
Suggestions? Do you think zerg 3 base opener is dead and instead we'll have to tech 2 base lair first (with some timing push)?
(1600 pt Masters Zerg for reference of what I'm facing) Hm I don't think a 6 gate msc timing will kill a third base if you defend properly. It's definitely harder but you should be able to hold it if you see it coming, I haven't faced much 6 gate but I can normally hold it off on the few times I have faced it with the msc. To be honest I think it just depends on how fast you scout the gateway all in coming, throwing down a spore isn't a bad idea anymore just because of what tosses do or to have it attack the msc. I could be wrong I would have to face 6 gate a lot more to know but I don't think so but I also haven't played verse it that much. So as of right now no I don't think it's dead, I think if that were the case I would be facing a lot more 6 gate msc attacks (especially on korea) if it was impossible to hold.
agree and actually think if zerg plays correct there is now no way for P to 2 base all in and win. BUT protoss will now be able to do big 2 base pressure builds into 3rd base with recall. that would be really awesome to see.
the reason behind me saying 2 base allins are dead is burrow on hatchtech and SHs. with SHs sentry immo is dead and with burrow every all in without detection is dead. getting burrow vs no gas natural is basically a free win. if you play a standard bo with 2x gas at 6:00 you will be able to have burrow at 8:50 so you need to stall only for a very close timing window and than laugh about his gateway all in. (i am playing 3 gas at 6:00 and techheavy so will have it ready at 8:40).
even vs blink all in with MSC burrow will help a lot (5 gate blink + MSC pressure will be the new 2 base pressure into 3rd base build which i could see be VERY strong since you basically will not lose a single unit as P with blink and recall and since infestors suck vs blinkstalker now mass stalker have no real counter anymore...well ling muta if you are uncontested but with pressure into 3rd you will have to use your gas for roaches, hydras, SHs or whatever).
so yeah maybe some SG + gateway all in with oracles or voids in combination could be strong but thats about the only 2 base allin i can think of being really strong in HOTS.
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On March 14 2013 17:50 YuiHirasawa wrote:
Thank you for this. I was THIS close to switch to protoss.
Well I'm THIS close to switching to zerg after having read this guide. Someone show toss some love please 
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Once again Blade, thank you for your contribution. You rock!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www10.pic-upload.de/15.03.13/zjcbmsxxohty.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.pic-upload.de/view-18525124/ZvT.png.html)
