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On May 30 2013 03:03 Atlassian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:56 blade55555 wrote:
In zvt I do muta/ling/bane into swarmhost still and vs mech always go swarmhosts it's just such a hard counter to mech :D Hi Blade Could you please give an idea of what your Swarm Host build against mech is please? I currently struggle with getting out enough swarm hosts in time to get them penned in, and they will just push with hellion/hellbat and my army gets crushed before I can even get much out. Thanks
Well what I do is get about 9 mutalisks and then go straight to swarmhosts once I see mech. There isn't really any push he can do that will kill you. The composition goes roach/hydra/swarmhost (swarmhost comes first). Any sort of tank/hellbat push can't come before swarmhosts because if there is a timing like that then it will just get crushed because it would have to be a very early push which would mean 3 tanks max.
On May 30 2013 11:47 JohnJohnson wrote:
Blade-
Could you explain a few details about the zvp Muta style that you mention?
I'm not sure how to best start out or transition into that style.... are you supposed to drop a spire simaltaneously with the hydra den and infestor pit, and just start cranking out mutas off the bat? Or are you supposed to do a heavy ling or ling roach opening, then start making mutas later?
Ah the muta style is just get a spire as soon as lair finishes (I only do this vs non stargate openings) and get 12-14 muta, then put a hydra/infestation pit down and get swarmhosts (hydra den is if he adds stargates for phoenix you can make hydra) and yeah that's what I do.
Always have a roach warren just encase though  .
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The OP doesn't really reflect what I see most people doing with swarm hosts in ZvP now; that is getting vipers quite quickly to deal with the colossus. I'm not really sure the correct timings to start going hive and when to get vipers, how many, how to most effectively use them, etc.
Could you update the OP to reflect/explain this?
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Eagerly awaiting the gateway expand section, as that's all I seem to see any more...
e: Thank you!
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I will add in that section either tomorrow or monday .
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Hey Blade & Others...
First of i think you are doing this really great helping all us scrubs out, with everything from Guides to YouTube commentary (long time sub here).
I successful used some of your builds in s1 of HOTS and went from plat -> mid masters within 300 games, but basically haven't played since the end of that season. I used to have quite a good win ratio in ZvZ, and i actually really enjoyed the muta battles. But to my big surprise the meta have changed quite a lot since i played last time, and i have a really hard time figuring out what builds i should be using. So i was wondering if there is any chance you (or another H. Master/GM) could write down 1-2 solid ZvZ builds - maybe an allin (bling/ling allin) or a more safe macro oriented roach/hydra build?
I'm sorry if this already have been asked in the thread, i read the last 6-7 pages - but haven't been able to locate anything.
(Links to external sites with up to date, build orders is appreciated to)
//Kal
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On June 03 2013 08:39 Kallup wrote:
Hey Blade & Others...
First of i think you are doing this really great helping all us scrubs out, with everything from Guides to YouTube commentary (long time sub here).
I successful used some of your builds in s1 of HOTS and went from plat -> mid masters within 300 games, but basically haven't played since the end of that season. I used to have quite a good win ratio in ZvZ, and i actually really enjoyed the muta battles. But to my big surprise the meta have changed quite a lot since i played last time, and i have a really hard time figuring out what builds i should be using. So i was wondering if there is any chance you (or another H. Master/GM) could write down 1-2 solid ZvZ builds - maybe an allin (bling/ling allin) or a more safe macro oriented roach/hydra build?
I'm sorry if this already have been asked in the thread, i read the last 6-7 pages - but haven't been able to locate anything.
(Links to external sites with up to date, build orders is appreciated to)
//Kal
Hm zvz all ins you can do 10 pool ling/bane all in, hatch first pure ling/bane all in or you can still do mutalisk then go into roach/hydra or swarmhosts.
You can do a 1/1 ling upgrade, but I don't' do that build as I am not a fan of it you can watch zerg streams like idra as he does the 1/1 ling build a lot (from what I have seen lately anyway).
Now for the people wanting gateway expand I updated the OP with it and for the people too lazy to look it's in a spoiler.
Reacting to gateway expand:
+ Show Spoiler +Reacting to gate expand[list]An old opening that has become popular again is the gateway expand. The gateway expand is something that can put on pressure while teching and can punish fast 3 base no gas play. When a zerg notices they are facing gateway expansion the zerg player should get a gas asap. This is very, very important. The faster the zerg player gets metabolic boost upgraded the faster lings can move around the map and kill hidden probes or pylons. This is very important because one of the most common things a protoss player does when gateway expanding is to do a 4 gate pressure to try and kill the third base. If the protoss player succeeds this puts the zerg player behind as that third is now delayed and the protoss player is going to be ahead economically. If the zerg defends it without losing the third or take any economic damage, then the zerg player is going to be ahead. The hard part for the zerg player is knowing if the protoss player is going to do this 4-5 gate pressure or just tech and not do this. This is important information because if zerg makes units, but the protoss isn't doing the 4-5 gate pressure then the zerg's economy is going to be worse then protoss due to making useless units, but if the zerg doesn't make units and the protoss does do 4-5 gate pressure this can be game ending. Something the zerg player should be doing is have control of the watch towers, have overlords in the common pylon locations and have some lings scouting around everywhere for hidden pylons. While doing this the zerg should be droning the whole time until the zerg sees the protoss move out with the army or the zerg sees pylons going down. Zerg players should be throwing down a roach warren versus gateway expand at about 5:45 - 6 minutes. This is a must as if the protoss player does do a heavy 4-5 gate attack at 6:15, It is very hard to defend this attack with pure speedling unless the zerg player is making them blindly before hand or has static defense. Roach/ling is the better option versus this kind of attack and skipping the roach warren is playing with fire. Now sacrificing an overlord is very useful versus this opening, sacrificing the overlord at about 5:45-6 minutes is perfect to see tech going up. If zerg doesn't see anything, no stargate, robo, etc then the zerg player should put 1 spore at each base at 6:30-6:45. This is because 99% of the time if the protoss isn't doing a fast 4-5 gate pressure it's going to be stargate or DT. There is the chance of just a robo opener with no stargate/dt, but this isn't very common and this is the best way to proceed if the zerg doesn't scout anything. If the protoss player doesn't do any sort of early gateway pressure then play the zvp as you normally would. Video:
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Hi Blade,
First I want to thank you for your great guide, as they helped me a lot. I like everything you to do help the zerg community since the release of HotS (specifically).
I have a question for you, what do you do in late late game against a massive Colossus/Void Ray/Archon composition?
I just played a game where I was ahead in every way, won every battle, got a huge bank and a constant 200/200 and thought my position was unbeatable. Usually, I am able to see what's wrong in the replay and I've only ask for help only 3 times in all my SC2 career, but here I just cannot figure out what went wrong with the last engagement.
My Ultra/Hydra/SH army seemed so frail, even if it was not perfectly optimal I cannot understand why I lose this fast. Problem is, 90% of my ZvP look the same atm: I macro up, hold any mid game push, get a cray eco/army, and then just ultimately loose vs an opponent who doesnt even have a better macro.
Since I'm playing your style (which I enjoy a lot), but having so much hard time lately in the late game of this matchup, I ask for your help. I'm really clueless here.
(about my """skill level""", its high diamond)
Here is the replay:
ZvP djayel lost
Thank you very much.
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On June 04 2013 16:24 blade55555 wrote:Now for the people wanting gateway expand I updated the OP with it and for the people too lazy to look it's in a spoiler. Reacting to gateway expand: + Show Spoiler +Reacting to gate expand[list]An old opening that has become popular again is the gateway expand. The gateway expand is something that can put on pressure while teching and can punish fast 3 base no gas play. When a zerg notices they are facing gateway expansion the zerg player should get a gas asap. This is very, very important. The faster the zerg player gets metabolic boost upgraded the faster lings can move around the map and kill hidden probes or pylons. This is very important because one of the most common things a protoss player does when gateway expanding is to do a 4 gate pressure to try and kill the third base. If the protoss player succeeds this puts the zerg player behind as that third is now delayed and the protoss player is going to be ahead economically. If the zerg defends it without losing the third or take any economic damage, then the zerg player is going to be ahead. The hard part for the zerg player is knowing if the protoss player is going to do this 4-5 gate pressure or just tech and not do this. This is important information because if zerg makes units, but the protoss isn't doing the 4-5 gate pressure then the zerg's economy is going to be worse then protoss due to making useless units, but if the zerg doesn't make units and the protoss does do 4-5 gate pressure this can be game ending. Something the zerg player should be doing is have control of the watch towers, have overlords in the common pylon locations and have some lings scouting around everywhere for hidden pylons. While doing this the zerg should be droning the whole time until the zerg sees the protoss move out with the army or the zerg sees pylons going down. Zerg players should be throwing down a roach warren versus gateway expand at about 5:45 - 6 minutes. This is a must as if the protoss player does do a heavy 4-5 gate attack at 6:15, It is very hard to defend this attack with pure speedling unless the zerg player is making them blindly before hand or has static defense. Roach/ling is the better option versus this kind of attack and skipping the roach warren is playing with fire. Now sacrificing an overlord is very useful versus this opening, sacrificing the overlord at about 5:45-6 minutes is perfect to see tech going up. If zerg doesn't see anything, no stargate, robo, etc then the zerg player should put 1 spore at each base at 6:30-6:45. This is because 99% of the time if the protoss isn't doing a fast 4-5 gate pressure it's going to be stargate or DT. There is the chance of just a robo opener with no stargate/dt, but this isn't very common and this is the best way to proceed if the zerg doesn't scout anything. If the protoss player doesn't do any sort of early gateway pressure then play the zvp as you normally would. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5z8XJRpp_s
I came to this thread looking for this, Thanks a lot Blade!!! Im sooo tired of losing against Gw expand x)
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On June 05 2013 00:47 DjayEl wrote:Hi Blade, First I want to thank you for your great guide, as they helped me a lot. I like everything you to do help the zerg community since the release of HotS (specifically). I have a question for you, what do you do in late late game against a massive Colossus/Void Ray/Archon composition? I just played a game where I was ahead in every way, won every battle, got a huge bank and a constant 200/200 and thought my position was unbeatable. Usually, I am able to see what's wrong in the replay and I've only ask for help only 3 times in all my SC2 career, but here I just cannot figure out what went wrong with the last engagement. My Ultra/Hydra/SH army seemed so frail, even if it was not perfectly optimal I cannot understand why I lose this fast. Problem is, 90% of my ZvP look the same atm: I macro up, hold any mid game push, get a cray eco/army, and then just ultimately loose vs an opponent who doesnt even have a better macro. Since I'm playing your style (which I enjoy a lot), but having so much hard time lately in the late game of this matchup, I ask for your help. I'm really clueless here. (about my """skill level""", its high diamond) Here is the replay: ZvP djayel lostThank you very much.
Hi DjayEl,
so you at least get one answer and to give blade a little pause:
I think you started a bit slow (supply difference), but you had everything to win the game and I think you are a good player.
To make this short: Train engagements vs. Protoss.
--> First big battle (20:00 (?)): no corruption used
--> Second battle (~27:00): you seemed a bit scared there - you had a bit more army value in both fights, but you didn't fully use it's potential. Maybe you can poke in and attack his army from the back of the locusts. At least scare him a bit
and make him move out of position - make a dent into those shiny armors or attack somewhere else with your
'mobile army' - don't just move around behind your SHs!
Compare the Z/P unit compositions - he had a lot of collossi, so your SHs weren't that good anymore and your hydras
will allways die fast vs. mass collossi and broodlings are small units, too. The voidrays/immortals are pretty good vs. armored units and i.e. take out the SHs themselves quickly.
Also think about map control - you can try to take the Protoss' vision and do more creep spread (i.e. so he can't expand).
Also burrowed zerglings deny expansions for some time or at least your opponent has to focus on that task a bit.
At 25:00 you could've taken the watch tower and made the protoss move out of position by breaking the rocks to the
back entrance of his base.
Think about attacking from 2 or more sides and army placement (army formation, drops, nydus, ...).
What about macro when you are maxed ? (macro hatches - you had none, right ?; static defense in the south-east where that one DT attacked; creep spread so you deny expansions; ...)
All in all I think you did several small macro mistakes and hesitations because you were a bit scared of the toss-deathball.
Train engagements and I believe you'll be much more confident and thus your macro will be better, too.
I hope that helped you - please just take it as ideas. There are reasons why you were both "only" diamond.
Maybe also try out the multitasking trainer (HotS version) on NA.
Cheers,
BlackCherub
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Hi BlackCherub, thank you a lot for your answers. I will study this carefully
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Hi Blade,
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
Regards,
kx
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On June 16 2013 11:40 markalbert2kx wrote:
Hi Blade,
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
Regards,
kx
zvz is in a weird state right now. 95% of zvz's I play are ling/bane all ins. A lot of zergs are doing fast 1/1 lings and all that but there is no solid meta other then roach/hydra seems to be most popular. I still like mutalisks but it's a bit harder to get there due to 1/1 ling timings and all that.
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On June 16 2013 11:40 markalbert2kx wrote:
Hi Blade,
From the changes made to spore crawler, has the meta shifted away from muta vs muta in zvz? Since I follow your guide religiously, I am at a loss to what to do.. Will you have an update anytime soon?
Regards,
kx
Hi kx,
there is a nice overview of possible transitions and when to build which unit (from yesterday):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417471
Regards,
BlackCherub
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Hi Blade,
Something is not very clear in your OP and has not seem to be addressed in the posts below, it is in ZvP SH usage about whenever you must build a bunch of hydras or not before moving out to pressure toss' 3rd base.
What I understand is :
- If P goes pure colo + Gateway units, Z moves out with 8-10 SH + lings (no hydras).
- If P goes colo/VR, or opens SG (Phoenix or Voids), Z builds 10-15 hydras, 6-7 SH and then moves out.
In the first case (pure colo + gateway units) the P seem to burst my contain a lot easier, to a point its not even a contain really. I tried both combinations (hydras + lings + SH or pure ling + SH) and it has not worked that great for me so far. Should I go back and turtle hard shall I see mass gateway units with colossi?
Thank you so much.
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On June 26 2013 16:59 DjayEl wrote:
Hi Blade,
Something is not very clear in your OP and has not seem to be addressed in the posts below, it is in ZvP SH usage about whenever you must build a bunch of hydras or not before moving out to pressure toss' 3rd base.
What I understand is :
- If P goes pure colo + Gateway units, Z moves out with 8-10 SH + lings (no hydras).
- If P goes colo/VR, or opens SG (Phoenix or Voids), Z builds 10-15 hydras, 6-7 SH and then moves out.
In the first case (pure colo + gateway units) the P seem to burst my contain a lot easier, to a point its not even a contain really. I tried both combinations (hydras + lings + SH or pure ling + SH) and it has not worked that great for me so far. Should I go back and turtle hard shall I see mass gateway units with colossi?
Thank you so much.
Do remember that this guide was written before hots was officially released (updated though but not all updated). A lot of the stuff I figured out in zvp and stuff I just am too lazy to edit it in as it's changed quiet a bit.
The contain in zvp is really no longer ever going to be a long one. There are timings that you want to do that are very, very important that I figured out in zvp when going swarmhost (if you are doing swarmhost without being boring and making mass static defense).
One of the biggest things when doing swarmhosts and again not being boring with mass static defense is to start hive at 12:30 and no later. 12-14 swarmhosts, hive at 12:30 and the reason is, this is the best time to get vipers. There is NO timing that can kill you pre-viper if you start hive at 12:30.
I have had many protoss players try to kill me pre-viper, but roach/hydra/swarmhost crushed every single push. Not once (other then if I made a huge mistake like engaging in a small choke), have I lost to a pre-viper timing other then the time I engaged in the small ramp where the 4'th goes on akilon.
For compositions, if they don't go stargate I go roach/ling/swarmhost, if they go stargate hydra/swarmhost then add in roaches if they aren't going very air heavy, if colossi heavy then I go sh/hydra/ling and not many roaches.
This took me awhile to figure out though ^^.
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In ZvP: FFE -> double expo. Gateopening -> get lingspeed.
Should I dronescout to determin his opening, or will lord scouting get there in time?
Is this different from 2 and 4 players maps?
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Thank you very much Blade, this is much more clear to me now.
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On June 26 2013 19:21 gronnelg wrote:
In ZvP: FFE -> double expo. Gateopening -> get lingspeed.
Should I dronescout to determin his opening, or will lord scouting get there in time?
Is this different from 2 and 4 players maps?
This is map dependent and up to you. For example I drone scout on 2 player maps because some protosses don't probe scout and go forge first hoping you hatch first and then cannon rush you. This also lets you know if he is going gate expand or forge expand and whether to hatch first or not.
On 4 player maps I don't drone scout but a key giveaway if protoss is going gate expand or forge expand is a protoss will not scout if going gate expand (99% of the time) and will scout if going forge expand. You will want to use a ling to scout this though unless your overlord gets lucky.
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Blade, just one more thing about what you just said about those pre-hive timings protoss cannot do :
One of the biggest things when doing swarmhosts and again not being boring with mass static defense is to start hive at 12:30 and no later. 12-14 swarmhosts, hive at 12:30 and the reason is, this is the best time to get vipers. There is NO timing that can kill you pre-viper if you start hive at 12:30.
I have had many protoss players try to kill me pre-viper, but roach/hydra/swarmhost crushed every single push.
This obviously is if he is not all-inning, right ? I'm thinking about the 2 immo 2 colo push, in which case you need roaches + spire I think, or do you try to buy time until you get your vipers out ?
Do you ever build a spire before teching hive then, you totally put aside SH + colo even if he is colo heavy ?
Thank you for the clarification
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EPT
