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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On July 31 2014 20:20 Tharkun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 18:06 Heartland wrote:On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys,
I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options :
- 2 base all-in
or
- take an early 3rd
Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things :
-it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with.
- zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them...
So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ?
I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here ! Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion. I am in diamond (formerly 13 times master) league. Probably mid diamond now due to recent lack of practice. The main issue I need to tackle is this "I need to have every tech to win" feeling, and it relates to scouting. Are there good guides on how to scout in PvZ ?
About pvz
so i asked myself what are the major strengths of zerg and the major weakness of protoss:
a) tech switches which are not really scoutable until the units hit the field
b) trying to defend the third with very few units
Based on this concept, Zest won his GSL two seasons ago, have a look at those replays.
he starts with intense pheonix pressure (7) off ffe or nexus first. I think forge openings synthesize better with this build and SG tech in general.
he goes SG as well as 4 gate +1 zealots and attacks the third around 8-9 min.
he then goes robo and a late third (12 min is not uncommon) and transitions into blink colossus and +2
If you commit to your zealots, you need to do damage. But the pheonix and zealot pressure allows you to "force" a specific unit comp from the zerg. skipping roaches dies to this build, skipping hydras takes a lot of damage. Stuck on roach hydra for the first 15 min of the game, zerg has few options. You have enough pheonixes to discourage muta play and you hard counter roach hydra as well as swarmhost play.
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Italy12246 Posts
@Tharkun: i briefly went over scouting in the chargelot/void ray/templar guide. Of course the reactions are specific to that style, but at least it's a start.
Regarding PvZ in general, the way to scout is a combination of aggression (including stargate units), keeping one obs in his main/rally point, and hallucination, mostly the last one. The annoying thing with hallu is you need to CONSTANTLY send them out, as he could be switching to whatever the hell at any point (or so it feels to me lol). Additionally, every time you gain an advantage (say, you just defended some kind of roach/ling/hydra pressure) it can be helpful to push out with your msc and at least get to his half of the map; you dont have to allin with it, but scaring the zerg into making more units and recalling out can make it harder for the Zerg's tech to come online.
Regarding builds, there are roughly 4 variations that are commonly used right now:
1) Stargate>Phoenix>4gate>robo>third. These builds used to be the standard, go to macro opening, but now they have faded away a bit and are often used in combination with some kind of pressure (with a warp prism or with 4gate zealot) in order to make up for a generally delayed third. The midgame of choice for these builds is usually colossus/blink stalker, but colossus/void ray can kind of work too (although i dont really like it).
2) Stargate>oracle>fast third>midgame choice between 3base blink, colossus/void ray, colussus/stalker, voidray/templar. Basically you swap the phoenixes for an oracle for pressure; you can do less damage and have less map control but your economy is considerably stronger. Also, this build is much more versatile and it can go into any midgame style.
3) 3gate/forge>fast third>3base blink. Much more passive opener, but the 3base blink timing can be extremely strong. This build is probably the most common in the korean meta. You can allin with the blink timing or just pressure. A strong tweak that player have been going for lately is moving out to pressure as their third is building, with just +1. The idea is to punish a zerg droning and teching extremely hard as a reaction to your fast third; make sure to scout with a hallucination before doing this push out.
4) Warpgate timing>tech, usually forge. This is kind of a variation on the previous styles, and has the nice plus that you can hit a 2base timing instead of taking a third making it a fairly unpredictable style. San has made a living of using these kinds of builds.
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On July 31 2014 20:20 Tharkun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 18:06 Heartland wrote:On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys,
I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options :
- 2 base all-in
or
- take an early 3rd
Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things :
-it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with.
- zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them...
So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ?
I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here ! Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion. I am in diamond (formerly 13 times master) league. Probably mid diamond now due to recent lack of practice. The main issue I need to tackle is this "I need to have every tech to win" feeling, and it relates to scouting. Are there good guides on how to scout in PvZ ?
Sadly, this is how I also feel about PvZ. I've been consistently ~42% W/L ratio in PvZ for 3 seasons now and I hate the matchup. My ggtracker stats even show that my macro and base saturation are worse in PvZ, which I can only attribute to the unforgivable nature of PvZ or the anxiety that I need to make something work or I'll lose.
I've asked zerg players what they lose to and almost all of them laugh say PvZ is in P's favor. When they do talk, their answers are all over the place: "should have scouted", "learn to macro", "your upgrades are too slow", "harass more", "your 3rd was too slow", "2-base noob all-in protoss", "need a bigger deathball", "learn to micro", "you can't tech switch stargate to robo", "you should have pressured", etc. My replay analysis agrees with that, but how the hell do you fix everything?
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On August 02 2014 05:25 justnny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:20 Tharkun wrote:On July 31 2014 18:06 Heartland wrote:On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys,
I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options :
- 2 base all-in
or
- take an early 3rd
Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things :
-it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with.
- zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them...
So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ?
I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here ! Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion. I am in diamond (formerly 13 times master) league. Probably mid diamond now due to recent lack of practice. The main issue I need to tackle is this "I need to have every tech to win" feeling, and it relates to scouting. Are there good guides on how to scout in PvZ ? Sadly, this is how I also feel about PvZ. I've been consistently ~42% W/L ratio in PvZ for 3 seasons now and I hate the matchup. My ggtracker stats even show that my macro and base saturation are worse in PvZ, which I can only attribute to the unforgivable nature of PvZ or the anxiety that I need to make something work or I'll lose. I've asked zerg players what they lose to and almost all of them laugh say PvZ is in P's favor. When they do talk, their answers are all over the place: "should have scouted", "learn to macro", "your upgrades are too slow", "harass more", "your 3rd was too slow", "2-base noob all-in protoss", "need a bigger deathball", "learn to micro", "you can't tech switch stargate to robo", "you should have pressured", etc. My replay analysis agrees with that, but how the hell do you fix everything?
Maybe you should just learn a new build. It helps me a lot with both in-game understanding of a matchup (intuitively understanding when Zerg is droning or when mutas are probably on the way). Plus it will help you with "everything." And usually seeing how a new build works out will take you out of that rut you're in
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On August 02 2014 05:25 justnny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:20 Tharkun wrote:On July 31 2014 18:06 Heartland wrote:On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote:
Hi guys,
I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options :
- 2 base all-in
or
- take an early 3rd
Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things :
-it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with.
- zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them...
So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ?
I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here ! Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion. I am in diamond (formerly 13 times master) league. Probably mid diamond now due to recent lack of practice. The main issue I need to tackle is this "I need to have every tech to win" feeling, and it relates to scouting. Are there good guides on how to scout in PvZ ? Sadly, this is how I also feel about PvZ. I've been consistently ~42% W/L ratio in PvZ for 3 seasons now and I hate the matchup. My ggtracker stats even show that my macro and base saturation are worse in PvZ, which I can only attribute to the unforgivable nature of PvZ or the anxiety that I need to make something work or I'll lose. I've asked zerg players what they lose to and almost all of them laugh say PvZ is in P's favor. When they do talk, their answers are all over the place: "should have scouted", "learn to macro", "your upgrades are too slow", "harass more", "your 3rd was too slow", "2-base noob all-in protoss", "need a bigger deathball", "learn to micro", "you can't tech switch stargate to robo", "you should have pressured", etc. My replay analysis agrees with that, but how the hell do you fix everything?
out of all matchups, id say the element of surprise is the most important for PvZ. Because of how the larva mechanic, technically its impossible to kill a Zerg that has good scouting since he will just make the correct unit comp to counter yours. a good start would be getting better at hiding your tech structures and proxy pylons/probe. use stalkers to patrol the edges of your main so overlords wont see what u are doing. an unscouted oracle would get 10 drone kills but a scouted oracle would get almost 0. an unscouted warpin of zealots can kill a hatchery but a scouted one will be shut down easily. TLDR: you need to make the Zerg feel like he's safe so he will continue making nothing but drones while you throw whatever you have at him in surprise.
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On August 02 2014 06:30 TokyoGirl wrote:
out of all matchups, id say the element of surprise is the most important for PvZ. Because of how the larva mechanic, technically its impossible to kill a Zerg that has good scouting since he will just make the correct unit comp to counter yours. a good start would be getting better at hiding your tech structures and proxy pylons/probe. use stalkers to patrol the edges of your main so overlords wont see what u are doing. an unscouted oracle would get 10 drone kills but a scouted oracle would get almost 0. an unscouted warpin of zealots can kill a hatchery but a scouted one will be shut down easily. TLDR: you need to make the Zerg feel like he's safe so he will continue making nothing but drones while you throw whatever you have at him in surprise.
Interesting perspective. That makes sense, though, because I'm not one of the "tricky" Protosses. I try to play safe and standard, which usually puts what I'm doing right out so it can be seen. It feels impossible to take a fight with an advantage, but that is because they have specifically prepared for my composition. I'll do nothing but "tricky" builds for awhile and see how that works out. Thanks!
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United States4883 Posts
On August 02 2014 08:57 justnny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 06:30 TokyoGirl wrote:
out of all matchups, id say the element of surprise is the most important for PvZ. Because of how the larva mechanic, technically its impossible to kill a Zerg that has good scouting since he will just make the correct unit comp to counter yours. a good start would be getting better at hiding your tech structures and proxy pylons/probe. use stalkers to patrol the edges of your main so overlords wont see what u are doing. an unscouted oracle would get 10 drone kills but a scouted oracle would get almost 0. an unscouted warpin of zealots can kill a hatchery but a scouted one will be shut down easily. TLDR: you need to make the Zerg feel like he's safe so he will continue making nothing but drones while you throw whatever you have at him in surprise. Interesting perspective. That makes sense, though, because I'm not one of the "tricky" Protosses. I try to play safe and standard, which usually puts what I'm doing right out so it can be seen. It feels impossible to take a fight with an advantage, but that is because they have specifically prepared for my composition. I'll do nothing but "tricky" builds for awhile and see how that works out. Thanks!
Tbh, I personally have always had a lot more success with aggressive builds in PvZ. Zerg is highly dependent on getting the proper drone saturation and then making a ton of units. However, if you interrupt this a lot, Zergs tend to fall apart much more easily (also saying this from a Zerg perspective, as that's the race I've been playing for a few months now). I don't necessarily think these aggressive maneuvers have to "tricky" or "surprising", but it's definitely a lot more difficult from the Zerg end of things to try and guess if it's just a sentry poke into a recall or serious +1 4-gate pressure or what. The biggest strength of Protoss is that they can do just about anything and make it look like an all-in while setting up a transition behind it (and then, of course, if they DO all-in, the all-ins are quite powerful as well). So I've used this to my advantage a lot.
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United States4883 Posts
Done. Although, I'm having some weird problems with the formatting...so it's just linked under a separate spoiler tag lol. I'll try to get someone else to look at it so it doesn't look so ugly.
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im coming back after having not played or watched any starcraft for the last year to year & a half, i was wondering if anyone could bring me up to speed on any major changes or new builds that have arisen.
ive watched a few games and nothing seems to be majorly different except possibly pvz, have we gone away from the FFE into gateway expands or is FFE still the standard meta?
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Austria24422 Posts
Off the top of my head I know that HerO did it at IEM Cologne against ForGG in groups (on Yeonsu I think) and in the finals (game 1 regame) vs Polt
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On August 05 2014 18:26 SatedSC2 wrote:I've been getting around to learning proxy Gateway strategies in PvT (I've never bothered learning them before despite my usual style being pretty aggressive) and I've been trying to emulate the build I watched State doing on his stream. It seemed to be something like: 10 Pylon (Proxy)
10 Gate
Chronoboost Probes Once (Maintain Constant Probe Production From Here)
13 Gas
14 Pylon
@100% Gateway: Zealot (Don't Chronoboost) & Cybernetics Core
@100% Zealot: Zealot (Chronoboost)
Note: If Unscouted, Save Up Two Zealots Before Attacking
22 Pylon
@100% Zealot: Stalker (Chronoboost) & WG
@20 Probes: Cut Probes (16 On Minerals, 3 On Gas, 1 On Map)
@100% Stalker: Stalker (Chronoboost)
Expand & MSC
Second Gas
Resume Probe Production
Go Into Normal Style What are the best Korean examples of someone using a strategy like this? Off the top of my head, I only have a strong memory of Grubby and NaNiwa doing it!
I do Liquid Hero's 11-gate a lot on Overgrowth PvT. The BO is like this:
9 (or 10, depending on the time it takes for Probe to get there) pylon on their third.
11 gate
13ish gas (can't remember off the top of my head)
Chrono zealots.
Can't remember the pylon timing
Cybercore
When you have two zealots move in at 3.40.
With a regular Reaper expand you'll probably kill the SCV building the low ground CC. Move into their base and start to micro against workers. Build an MSC the first thing you do with your gas. The Reaper should be turning around to fight your Zeals, but sometimes they don't and then you need the MSC. Plus it has a lot of benefits for later.
Build Stalkers to contain them if they have walled up. Otherwise make sure Stalkers and Zealots can kill off as many workers as possible. The worst thing this opening faces is a gasless walled-off expand, then you're behind and you need to make sure your contain is solid. Build probes and expand as fast as you can. If you've done some damage, such as killing off a bunch of marines and a few workers, proxy Stargating can be fun and good. Otherwise get a Robo and play standard from there. Terran's are predictable and will usually try to mine drop you, but overcharge + obs takes care of that. They might also do a stim timing, but that's also fine with Overcharge and a 3-gate+robo build.
I have a lot of success with the build. It's fun to do early pressure and not be entirely all-in.
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On August 05 2014 18:35 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:26 SatedSC2 wrote:I've been getting around to learning proxy Gateway strategies in PvT (I've never bothered learning them before despite my usual style being pretty aggressive) and I've been trying to emulate the build I watched State doing on his stream. It seemed to be something like: 10 Pylon (Proxy)
10 Gate
Chronoboost Probes Once (Maintain Constant Probe Production From Here)
13 Gas
14 Pylon
@100% Gateway: Zealot (Don't Chronoboost) & Cybernetics Core
@100% Zealot: Zealot (Chronoboost)
Note: If Unscouted, Save Up Two Zealots Before Attacking
22 Pylon
@100% Zealot: Stalker (Chronoboost) & WG
@20 Probes: Cut Probes (16 On Minerals, 3 On Gas, 1 On Map)
@100% Stalker: Stalker (Chronoboost)
Expand & MSC
Second Gas
Resume Probe Production
Go Into Normal Style What are the best Korean examples of someone using a strategy like this? Off the top of my head, I only have a strong memory of Grubby and NaNiwa doing it! I do Liquid Hero's 11-gate a lot on Overgrowth PvT. The BO is like this: 9 (or 10, depending on the time it takes for Probe to get there) pylon on their third. 11 gate 13ish gas (can't remember off the top of my head) Chrono zealots. Can't remember the pylon timing Cybercore When you have two zealots move in at 3.40. With a regular Reaper expand you'll probably kill the SCV building the low ground CC. Move into their base and start to micro against workers. Build an MSC the first thing you do with your gas. The Reaper should be turning around to fight your Zeals, but sometimes they don't and then you need the MSC. Plus it has a lot of benefits for later. Build Stalkers to contain them if they have walled up. Otherwise make sure Stalkers and Zealots can kill off as many workers as possible. The worst thing this opening faces is a gasless walled-off expand, then you're behind and you need to make sure your contain is solid. Build probes and expand as fast as you can. If you've done some damage, such as killing off a bunch of marines and a few workers, proxy Stargating can be fun and good. Otherwise get a Robo and play standard from there. Terran's are predictable and will usually try to mine drop you, but overcharge + obs takes care of that. They might also do a stim timing, but that's also fine with Overcharge and a 3-gate+robo build. I have a lot of success with the build. It's fun to do early pressure and not be entirely all-in.
If they opened gasless and walled up then you can go full protoss mode and expand to their natural. Use nexus cannon to break the depot/bunker wall. It works quite well actually :D
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On August 05 2014 20:40 TokyoGirl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 18:35 Heartland wrote:On August 05 2014 18:26 SatedSC2 wrote:I've been getting around to learning proxy Gateway strategies in PvT (I've never bothered learning them before despite my usual style being pretty aggressive) and I've been trying to emulate the build I watched State doing on his stream. It seemed to be something like: 10 Pylon (Proxy)
10 Gate
Chronoboost Probes Once (Maintain Constant Probe Production From Here)
13 Gas
14 Pylon
@100% Gateway: Zealot (Don't Chronoboost) & Cybernetics Core
@100% Zealot: Zealot (Chronoboost)
Note: If Unscouted, Save Up Two Zealots Before Attacking
22 Pylon
@100% Zealot: Stalker (Chronoboost) & WG
@20 Probes: Cut Probes (16 On Minerals, 3 On Gas, 1 On Map)
@100% Stalker: Stalker (Chronoboost)
Expand & MSC
Second Gas
Resume Probe Production
Go Into Normal Style What are the best Korean examples of someone using a strategy like this? Off the top of my head, I only have a strong memory of Grubby and NaNiwa doing it! I do Liquid Hero's 11-gate a lot on Overgrowth PvT. The BO is like this: 9 (or 10, depending on the time it takes for Probe to get there) pylon on their third. 11 gate 13ish gas (can't remember off the top of my head) Chrono zealots. Can't remember the pylon timing Cybercore When you have two zealots move in at 3.40. With a regular Reaper expand you'll probably kill the SCV building the low ground CC. Move into their base and start to micro against workers. Build an MSC the first thing you do with your gas. The Reaper should be turning around to fight your Zeals, but sometimes they don't and then you need the MSC. Plus it has a lot of benefits for later. Build Stalkers to contain them if they have walled up. Otherwise make sure Stalkers and Zealots can kill off as many workers as possible. The worst thing this opening faces is a gasless walled-off expand, then you're behind and you need to make sure your contain is solid. Build probes and expand as fast as you can. If you've done some damage, such as killing off a bunch of marines and a few workers, proxy Stargating can be fun and good. Otherwise get a Robo and play standard from there. Terran's are predictable and will usually try to mine drop you, but overcharge + obs takes care of that. They might also do a stim timing, but that's also fine with Overcharge and a 3-gate+robo build. I have a lot of success with the build. It's fun to do early pressure and not be entirely all-in. If they opened gasless and walled up then you can go full protoss mode and expand to their natural. Use nexus cannon to break the depot/bunker wall. It works quite well actually :D
Haha. : )
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Can Protoss god Teoita hook me up with common standard build orders for PvZ, PvP and PvT that lead to macro games? For my Become a Protoss?  I would also like to have one allin for each match up?
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Austria24422 Posts
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On August 05 2014 21:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:For PvT I've never actually found the exact build order of super standard 1gate expand -> robo -> 2gates -> double forge/colossus, but just steal someone's replay and copy it, it's by far the most common PvT build 
It's OK, I gave him that one. ;p
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|
|
|
EPT
