EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 280
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
For example in 2 player maps if you 9 scout you are 100% sure not to die to early pools because you get to his base at around 1:45 and throw down a reactive gateway just a few seconds later than usual. But honestly 9 scouting also means that you give away part of your economic advantage and your opponent is going to open with pool 90% of the times, which is not very comfortable when going nexus gate because you will have lings running around your main base for a while. Anyway you're right, I should just quit going nexus gate in the ladder, aside from very favourable maps. What bothers me is that it seems a much better opening than nexus-forge or gate-core-nexus if you want to play a macro game (third base at 6:45, etc.) I prefer gate->Nexus with probe scout after nexus. This is the only one which I haven't tried much. It seems definitely safer against early pools. I'm surely gonna try it out. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
On July 28 2014 19:27 KingAlphard wrote: This is the only one which I haven't tried much. It seems definitely safer against early pools. I'm surely gonna try it out. Yeah, you just rally your 19th probe infront of your natural to see if he is going 6 or 7 pool (you will see his lings coming by this time), and if you don't see lings you cancel your zealot and build a nexus. Then you send that probe to scout his natural and third, and grab second probe to set up a wall in your natural. Works really great for me. On July 28 2014 19:33 SatedSC2 wrote: When playing on the ladder, I really don't think the economic advantage is so large that it balances out the risk you're taking. I think it works fine in a BoX situation against a player whose style you're aware of, but not in a Bo1 situation on the ladder against a player who is hiding behind a barcode. QFT. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On July 28 2014 16:56 w3c.TruE wrote: It's quite popular among the best pro players, yes. But I don't think it's good to play it in ladder games. It's incredibly gready, and I don't know how you can hold something like 10pool speedling all-in, without incredible control. I prefer gate->Nexus with probe scout after nexus. But you can go for it, if you know your opponent and you know, that he won't have earlier then 14 pool or something... It's incredibly greedy and a bit risky, that's true but.. if you don't do it and go for a safe gate first, and scout that Zerg's gone for a hatch first, or even worse, a double-hatch first, then you're playing at a disadvantage for the rest of the game  | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On July 28 2014 20:47 Nyast wrote: It's incredibly greedy and a bit risky, that's true but.. if you don't do it and go for a safe gate first, and scout that Zerg's gone for a hatch first, or even worse, a double-hatch first, then you're playing at a disadvantage for the rest of the game this. i have terrible luck with build order openings. the best thing to do is to go gate - nexus but if u scout hatch first or 3 hatch before pool, fake a cannon rush and you shouldn't be so behind | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:24 SC2John wrote: I've actually just tested economic (gasless) 10pools against a friend going nexus/gate, and nexus/gate always comes out ahead with very few probe losses as long as you have good micro. Zero probe losses, and my micro is shit. Your rage was most amusing dehehehehe. Also i dont really buy into the argument of "it can work if you know what the other guy is doing, but not in Bo1 on ladder". By nature on ladder you will play a lot of games vs a variety of styles; nexus->gate actually works extremely well against lots of them. Sure you will lose a few games and look really stupid, but imo in the long run the losses average out, to the point where it's a perfectly viable build. You just have to accept the fact that you will get hardcountered by some early pools. Oh also, if you nexus first and 9 scout you should still be able to reactively cannon rush 3hatch before pool, and maybe even just 15 hatch, at least on 2 player maps. I'm not sure about 3 player maps though, and on 4p you just need to be a bit lucky. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
In my personal experience if you kill the hatch with a zealot timing, your follow-up allin should work almost every time unless you fuck up. | ||
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
I understand that some pros do it but generally it's a calculated risk against a zerg that they know usually don't go for early lings. If you don't know your opponent well enough to metagame him, then it's a gamble I'd rather not take considering how common 14 pool -> 4 lings straight to your base is. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
but then again its also a gamble. If you put gateway at mineral line then 14/14 will kill you | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
If you don't want to die to early pools though, you can't take this risk. But then again, this is a greedy build, so you have to think about what kinds of advantages you want... | ||
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REALRetrO
United States15 Posts
*Edit* I found in the OP how to deal with it, i must of read over it because i thought it wasnt in it. Sorry for the post | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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TokyoGirl
Japan116 Posts
On July 29 2014 17:10 SatedSC2 wrote: Just to add to what's in the OP about dealing with it when GW expanding; the ideal time to scout for a proxy Hatchery in your natural is when you're placing down your Cybernetics Core. Send the Probe that builds the Cybernetics Core down to your natural to check because if they're going for a Hatchery block then they should've started it by this time. Chronoboost out your Zealot and send Probes to attack the Hatchery (I send ~6-8) and then expand as normal. cyber core is too late. proxy hatch is 2:15 (same time as nexus first), cyber core is 2:50. The ideal timing is after 15 gas which is (2:05) | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 29 2014 22:49 TokyoGirl wrote: cyber core is too late. proxy hatch is 2:15 (same time as nexus first), cyber core is 2:50. The ideal timing is after 15 gas which is (2:05) I think that's too early and overcautious. I check my natural when my cyber core is about halfway done, and I've never had problems with the proxy hatch. As long as you pull 4-5 probes and get out 2 zealots ASAP, the hatchery won't do any significant damage. For the record, oracle followup is VERY strong against proxy hatch. | ||
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Mojito99
Germany154 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:43 Mojito99 wrote: anyone got some good guides/bOs which allow for a macro game but avoid a really defensive Colossus opening? Which matchup? And exactly what is your meaning of a "really defensive colossus opening"? Because there are plenty of really strong 2-base colossus pressures that I wouldn't really consider "really defensive". | ||
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