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On July 30 2014 02:43 Mojito99 wrote: anyone got some good guides/bOs which allow for a macro game but avoid a really defensive Colossus opening?
Which matchup? And exactly what is your meaning of a "really defensive colossus opening"? Because there are plenty of really strong 2-base colossus pressures that I wouldn't really consider "really defensive".
right so to clarify. i used to play Templar style into C transitions in pvt
I am not a big fan of Colossus and instead want to incorporate C as a lategame transition similar to pvp where you get a double robo going after a zealot archon immortal midgame.
I am looking for some inspiration to get through the midgame without colossus. So far i have some good all ins incorporating the starport or dt drops which hopefully do enough dmg. But maybe there are some more solid playstyles out there?
Nowadays templar into colossus isn't very popular because of widow mines. You need units with high range to deal with widow mines, specifically colossi. I also think that templar openings are much more fun, if you really want to do it, you absolutely need an early robo or oracle, because after the recent patch about 50% of terran players go for a widow mine drop in the early game. However, it will still be really hard to hold your third base when the terran player borrows a few widow mines in front of it or between your natural and third.
On July 30 2014 02:43 Mojito99 wrote: anyone got some good guides/bOs which allow for a macro game but avoid a really defensive Colossus opening?
Which matchup? And exactly what is your meaning of a "really defensive colossus opening"? Because there are plenty of really strong 2-base colossus pressures that I wouldn't really consider "really defensive".
right so to clarify. i used to play Templar style into C transitions.
I am not a big fan of Colossus and instead want to incorporate C as a lategame transition similar to pvp where you get a double robo going after a zealot archon immortal midgame.
I am looking for some inspiration to get through the midgame without colossus. So far i have some good all ins incorporating the starport or dt drops which hopefully do enough dmg. But maybe there are some more solid playstyles out there?
This is a bit of an older build (a year old to be exact), so it may not be fully up to date. But hopefully, you can get some direction on how to open into IAC and be aggressive in the mid game while buying enough time for colossus. In theory, you could probably use this attack to buy time for a 3rd base and colossus transition. To be honest, though, I doubt the effectiveness of these types of builds with the now double mine buff.
This is kind of the new colossus meta, where you rush out 3 colossus + blink and then either all-in or take a 3rd while going into double upgrades and charge. It's SCV pull proof and it can outright kill a Terran player if they lose too much with their drops. Since you start colossus production so early, you can also fit in a warp prism after the 3rd colossus and start doing drops. You might prefer this over the more traditional defensive colossus openings that rely more on just sitting back and never moving out.
I have one idea I wanted to discuss about 2 base widow mine drops (off of a standard 1 reaper reactor expand). That is, starting off with a standard 1 gate expand with 5:20 robo, but skipping the forge (upon scouting it) and getting a lot of warpgates (5-6?). You warp in stalkers. hold the attack, and then use a proxy pylon preemptively placed to overwhelm him with gateway units. Do you think this could work consistently or a good terran player will already have enough units to hold?
I saw an interesting thread on Battlenet where a GM posted a guide to HT openings in PvT. He claims that the style is still perfectly fine despite the Widow Mine buff.
So basically he posts a completely standard charge/templar build with 9 gates and says it's still viable.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
Terran can play the marauder/mine style against you that was popular in Korea for a while before everybody switched to colossus entirely. That's what killed templar builds, not the kind of play he's describing.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
It's worse than that. Nexus first builds are extremely vulnerable to reaper openings which are still common. Then his build is a +1 weapons upgrade while going chargelot/templar (why would you get weapons over armor in a zealot heavy build with storm?), skips robo for no observer, has no scouting at all until very late, no map vision, automatically dies to cloak banshee should it come, and it confers no special advantage against widow mines and doesn't solve any of the problems. He is also incorrect in his assertion that zealots can trigger multiple mines: mines have smart fire and one mine kills one zealot every time, so one zealot will never trigger more than one mine.
Not to mention the still semi-standard 3 ghost push with mines is going to be virtually unstoppable because you can't poach forward due to mines for vision and you don't have observers. Plus in order to deal with drops, your templar are going to have to be spread out in various bases, meaning the actual templar you have at the front for the push will be fewer. All terran needs to do to start whittling you down here is to poach forwards, dodge a storm or two, back off and kite while his mines get some kills. If you chase, mines kill more units and he kites you. If you don't, you've bled units, terran lost nothing, and he just keeps doing it while rallying more units. You don't have obs, you have 9 gates: you're going to be losing tons of money into units that die repeatedly while killing nothing, and just to hang on while terran slowly masses up an unstoppable army, continues to expand, gets double upgrades, and eventually gets ghosts.
You can hold a bio/mine all-in at your third base with storms, but that's never been the issue: it's that you cannot take a third with storm before colossus and then stay even with the terran if he does bio/mine pressure and doesn't commit to a heavy attack, just kiting instead.
Yeah, it just all around doesn't make sense. His answer to mines is less detection, more zealots with attack upgrades. Can't help but feel that he's just fucking around or GM terrans are really fucking terrible.
On July 30 2014 07:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: So basically he posts a completely standard charge/templar build with 9 gates and says it's still viable.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
It's worse than that. Nexus first builds are extremely vulnerable to reaper openings which are still common.
Just for the record, if you have a good simcity, you can take almost no damage with nexus first and keep your zealot alive. That's actually easier to do on a map like Nimbus though (managed to get away with it at the beginning of the season with only 1-2 probe losses vs a reaper build, and even killed the reaper when he tried to go for my zealot behind my mineral line), since the reaper can easily get trapped in your natural, whereas on other maps he can drop by the natural to kill probes on his way out (or even ignore the main and force you to cancel probes at your natural). But extremely vulnerable? I wouldn't say so.
If you want to see how that works, take a look at this vod at 26min:
I haven't read anything else and this doesn't dismiss other issues you may have with the strategy that guy posted, but aside from a 30 second delay on your robo, everything else should be manageable even if you're up against a reaper opening. You can actually hit a really sick benchmark against medivac timings if you're not harassed - iirc, you can get a colossus out at 9 min, start blink at 8 min, go double forge before gates, and still have 6 gates open by 9 minutes or so... which is incredibly strong if you're up against a "non-reaper" expand.
On July 30 2014 07:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: So basically he posts a completely standard charge/templar build with 9 gates and says it's still viable.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
It's worse than that. Nexus first builds are extremely vulnerable to reaper openings which are still common.
Just for the record, if you have a good simcity, you can take almost no damage with nexus first and keep your zealot alive. That's actually easier to do on a map like Nimbus though (managed to get away with it at the beginning of the season with only 1-2 probe losses vs a reaper build, and even killed the reaper when he tried to go for my zealot behind my mineral line), since the reaper can easily get trapped in your natural, whereas on other maps he can drop by the natural to kill probes on his way out (or even ignore the main and force you to cancel probes at your natural). But extremely vulnerable? I wouldn't say so.
If you want to see how that works, take a look at this vod at 26min:
I haven't read anything else and this doesn't dismiss other issues you may have with the strategy that guy posted, but aside from a 30 second delay on your robo, everything else should be manageable even if you're up against a reaper opening. You can actually hit a really sick benchmark against medivac timings if you're not harassed - iirc, you can get a colossus out at 9 min, start blink at 8 min, go double forge before gates, and still have 6 gates open by 9 minutes or so... which is incredibly strong if you're up against a "non-reaper" expand.
You can hold on only losing a few probes if the terran micros well (obviously you can do better if he doesn't), but losing a few probes to the reaper negates any real reason to go nexus first vs. just doing a normal opening, and it's not hard to lose a lot more probes than that. Nexus first delays tech to get out some extra probes a little bit faster, but what's the point if it costs you 2 probes to do it? Flash, I should point out, is very well known for valuing the life of his units extremely and not taking risks. Watch about 100 of his games, he's always extremely careful to not take risks with the reaper and not risk losing it, as he knows the scouting matters more than damage. Another player might have got more damage done.
On July 30 2014 07:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: So basically he posts a completely standard charge/templar build with 9 gates and says it's still viable.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
It's worse than that. Nexus first builds are extremely vulnerable to reaper openings which are still common.
Just for the record, if you have a good simcity, you can take almost no damage with nexus first and keep your zealot alive. That's actually easier to do on a map like Nimbus though (managed to get away with it at the beginning of the season with only 1-2 probe losses vs a reaper build, and even killed the reaper when he tried to go for my zealot behind my mineral line), since the reaper can easily get trapped in your natural, whereas on other maps he can drop by the natural to kill probes on his way out (or even ignore the main and force you to cancel probes at your natural). But extremely vulnerable? I wouldn't say so.
If you want to see how that works, take a look at this vod at 26min:
I haven't read anything else and this doesn't dismiss other issues you may have with the strategy that guy posted, but aside from a 30 second delay on your robo, everything else should be manageable even if you're up against a reaper opening. You can actually hit a really sick benchmark against medivac timings if you're not harassed - iirc, you can get a colossus out at 9 min, start blink at 8 min, go double forge before gates, and still have 6 gates open by 9 minutes or so... which is incredibly strong if you're up against a "non-reaper" expand.
You can hold on only losing a few probes if the terran micros well, but losing a few probes to the reaper negates any real reason to go nexus first vs. just doing a normal opening, and it's not hard to lose a lot more probes than that. Flash, I should point out, is very well known for valuing the life of his units extremely and not taking risks. Watch about 100 of his games, he's always extremely careful to not take risks with the reaper and not risk losing it, as he knows the scouting matters more than damage. Another player might have got more damage done.
My point is, while the terran can be definitely annyoing, you shouldn't lose a ton to reaper harassment. You claim that it's hard not to lose a lot more probes than 1 or 2, but honestly, I think that depends alot on your simcity and micro. It sounds like you're not confident at all. If you don't have the micro to pull it off (and that's a different kind of micro than what you need to do in the mid game and whatnot), then yeah, you're probably gonna lose a ton. But that's also true if you msc expand and let reapers dance behind your mineral line and micro poorly.
The fact that you MAY not get a build order edge if your opponent opens with a reaper and microes really well does not mean you have no reason to go nexus first. And even if you cut probes on purpose at your natural until you're safe, you'll be getting more chrono boost energy and therefore make probes faster later on, which a reaper simply can't prevent you from doing. I'm not claiming nexus first is a superior strategy, but you guys talk like it's a freaking build order loss vs a reaper opening, when in fact it can turn out similar to a msc expand if you pick the right maps to do it and know what you're doing.
On July 30 2014 07:12 DarkLordOlli wrote: So basically he posts a completely standard charge/templar build with 9 gates and says it's still viable.
Usually higher level Terrans apply early pressure. If they apply early pressure, it means that the Widow Mines will be delayed. So basically I start seeing Mines around once my third base is constructed.
At that point... I have around 7 templar sitting around my bases and a huge crowd of zealots.
If they try and bait you into Widow Mines, you're going to have to micro better.
Send a Zealot out and have it suicide for a couple Widow Mines.
Do not a-move into them, EVER. Terran is just too powerful for a-moving and basically this buffer is just for Protoss players to have to micro a lot in early - mid game.
Never forget to split your army before engaging too.
You can also back your army up, causing the terran player to unborrow the mines, and you can strike at a certain moment like that.
Otherwise, micro is key.
So basically he wants you to do things that a good terran won't let happen. Mkay. I'm going to trust people who play at a higher level than somewhere in GM. It definitely isn't viable at pro level and hasn't been since the first +shields buff.
It's worse than that. Nexus first builds are extremely vulnerable to reaper openings which are still common.
Just for the record, if you have a good simcity, you can take almost no damage with nexus first and keep your zealot alive. That's actually easier to do on a map like Nimbus though (managed to get away with it at the beginning of the season with only 1-2 probe losses vs a reaper build, and even killed the reaper when he tried to go for my zealot behind my mineral line), since the reaper can easily get trapped in your natural, whereas on other maps he can drop by the natural to kill probes on his way out (or even ignore the main and force you to cancel probes at your natural). But extremely vulnerable? I wouldn't say so.
If you want to see how that works, take a look at this vod at 26min:
I haven't read anything else and this doesn't dismiss other issues you may have with the strategy that guy posted, but aside from a 30 second delay on your robo, everything else should be manageable even if you're up against a reaper opening. You can actually hit a really sick benchmark against medivac timings if you're not harassed - iirc, you can get a colossus out at 9 min, start blink at 8 min, go double forge before gates, and still have 6 gates open by 9 minutes or so... which is incredibly strong if you're up against a "non-reaper" expand.
You can hold on only losing a few probes if the terran micros well, but losing a few probes to the reaper negates any real reason to go nexus first vs. just doing a normal opening, and it's not hard to lose a lot more probes than that. Flash, I should point out, is very well known for valuing the life of his units extremely and not taking risks. Watch about 100 of his games, he's always extremely careful to not take risks with the reaper and not risk losing it, as he knows the scouting matters more than damage. Another player might have got more damage done.
My point is, while the terran can be definitely annyoing, you shouldn't lose a ton to reaper harassment. You claim that it's hard not to lose a lot more probes than 1 or 2, but honestly, I think that depends alot on your simcity and micro. It sounds like you're not confident at all. If you don't have the micro to pull it off (and that's a different kind of micro than what you need to do in the mid game and whatnot), then yeah, you're probably gonna lose a ton. But that's also true if you msc expand and let reapers dance behind your mineral line and micro poorly.
The fact that you MAY not get a build order edge if your opponent opens with a reaper and microes really well does not mean you have no reason to go nexus first. And even if you cut probes on purpose at your natural until you're safe, you'll be getting more chrono boost energy and therefore make probes faster later on, which a reaper simply can't prevent you from doing. I'm not claiming nexus first is a superior strategy, but you guys talk like it's a freaking build order loss vs a reaper opening, when in fact it can turn out similar to a msc expand if you pick the right maps to do it and know what you're doing.
No, what I meant was that nexus first gains no advantage vs. one of the most common openings terran does, and probably sets you slightly behind, and it delays tech, which is a huge part of TvP. The most popular build right now in Korea is a colossus rush into blink with delayed upgrades. Nexus first delays your gas as well, at any given point you'll have less gas than you would if you hadn't gone nexus first. It's a risk that makes a sacrifice for a small edge at best and often will break even or go worse.
Of course, if you have good reason to believe your opponent won't go reaper, then by all means, but given the odds of a reaper and the opportunity cost, I personally see little reason to go nexus first in the matchup as a standard (especially in the context given, where the guy is trying to open templar: nexus first cuts into your total gas mined).
If you really want to nexus first, you can 13 scout as if gateway expand, confirm its 12/12 reaper and then hide probe at third. then come back at 3:50 (this is when reaper is in middle of map) to harass the SCV that is building CC on low ground. 95/100 times the Terran comes back with reaper to kill probe and you bought yourself 30 seconds of time. I've done this a few times in KR master and it works fine.
but i do agree nexus first isnt worth the risks. against gas first widow mine drop you autolose with no nexus cannon and at most 3 stalkers
If by delay upgrades you mean not going forge right after the robo, yeah. But you can get 2 forges at 8:00-8:10 if you build gates 2 and 3 first, and even earlier if you build your forges before them. I feel like this is arguing semantics, but I wouldn't call that a delay for a double forge build.
For the sake of curiosity (i.e. I'm not trying to argue at this point lol), I've just tested the gas income while not making probes at my natural until my msc was out. You can still get your robo bay at 7:00ish. If you're comfortable enough cutting your third stalker (since you have a zealot out), you can even get your twilight council at the same time. This assumes you didn't lose too much gas to the reaper harass though. You can also start your robo pretty early, especially if you start it before warpgate - at about 5 minutes if you go unharassed. In other words, you can get 4 observers out and a fast colossus just fine.
So yeah, there's some tech delay, for sure. The situation is still pretty manageable though. If you like to have 5 observers on the map like me AND a fast colossus, you'll probably have to chrono one out later, which is ok to do since the last observer doesn't come into play until you take a third.
On July 30 2014 10:02 TokyoGirl wrote: If you really want to nexus first, you can 13 scout as if gateway expand, confirm its 12/12 reaper and then hide probe at third. then come back at 3:50 (this is when reaper is in middle of map) to harass the SCV that is building CC on low ground. 95/100 times the Terran comes back with reaper to kill probe and you bought yourself 30 seconds of time. I've done this a few times in KR master and it works fine.
but i do agree nexus first isnt worth the risks. against gas first widow mine drop you autolose with no nexus cannon and at most 3 stalkers
hahaha that's a pretty nifty trick, although it should be much more efficient to just pull 2 scvs to deal with the probe at home
Watching some of MCs games and of StatePrime, they are sometimes going with 3 gate blink pressure into robo and then immortal/sentry storm with a couple of chargelots and perhaps dt drops.
Anyone know of a guide or smth along those lines for this particular style which focuses on the twilight council tech first
Hi guys, I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options : - 2 base all-in or - take an early 3rd Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things : -it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with. - zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them... So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ? I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote: Hi guys, I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options : - 2 base all-in or - take an early 3rd Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things : -it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with. - zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them... So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ? I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here !
Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion.
On July 31 2014 08:38 Tharkun wrote: Hi guys, I have a huge problem with PvZ, i have a 14% winrate and zerg seems unbeatable.
I think in PvZ protoss has only 2 options : - 2 base all-in or - take an early 3rd Everything in between makes difficult for protoss to come out ahead in the midgame (pressuring while taking a late 3rd looks not very efficient).
It looks like zerg have figured out all immortal based pushes, and the current map pool is not in favor of these builds. So scratch 2 base all-ins.
Let's take a greedy 3rd then ! On favorable maps, I'm able to take a 3rd as early as 6:00. So what ? If zerg went 3 hatch before pool, I'm behind anyway. If they did not , they take a 4th immediately upon scouting my 3rd. Best case scenario : we are even into the midgame. But the problem is zerg fares so much better in the later stages of the game, because of 2 things : -it is difficult to get useful scouting information : what if I go scout at 10:00 and I see a spire, a hydra den and an infestation pit ? Is he going Roach/Hydra/Viper ? Is he going mutas with the gas he banked up while preparing a later transition to hive tech ? Is he going Corruptor/Swarm Host ? I don't have a clue, and all of these require a different composition to deal with. - zerg can easily take the map and abuse tech switches : say you prepared a good army to deal with roach/hydra/viper. Can you handle 20 mutas in your mineral line 1 minute later ? The only answer to that is phoenixes and you can't have them... So, playing the long macro game doesn't seem to be such a good idea.
I'm asking you what can I do ? I'm trying to find a timing when zerg is vulnerable but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. In WoL, zerg were vulnerable to all-ins at 9:00 and attacks right before hive kicked in (14:00). In HotS, they can have vipers ready as soon as 13:00, which makes it impossible to move out without HT, and by the time you get them, zerg has so much gas in bank that they can transition in whatever hurts you the most, even if they lose the fight.
Really need help here !
Well, you probably need to give some information. In general however it sounds as if you're just a bit.. well... wrong. Most of the popular builds today and that are described in this thread are perfectly viable builds to fight Zerg with. What league are you and can you send any replays? That might be a bit better than to have this very general discussion.
I am in diamond (formerly 13 times master) league. Probably mid diamond now due to recent lack of practice. The main issue I need to tackle is this "I need to have every tech to win" feeling, and it relates to scouting. Are there good guides on how to scout in PvZ ?
EPT
