EPTTime Warp nerf is another thing (rather good I think) and I wonder if it couldn't make scv pulls come back with a vengeance -it's not like they're dead anyway, but there is a pretty wide consensus that the correct answer is more or less figured out and the outcome just depends on execution from both sides.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 278
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
Time Warp nerf is another thing (rather good I think) and I wonder if it couldn't make scv pulls come back with a vengeance -it's not like they're dead anyway, but there is a pretty wide consensus that the correct answer is more or less figured out and the outcome just depends on execution from both sides. | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Rain played this game so godly. | ||
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Extenz
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Kayzer.
Germany79 Posts
Last GSL Parting held that kind of play against Life (twice in a row) with a sim city around his minerals and sick forcefields but I could never pull that off. Another problem is that I don't know if they commit to an all in or just get like 10 lings to pressure and get an expansion or 2 behind it. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
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SatedSC2
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Kayzer.
Germany79 Posts
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bretfart
114 Posts
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SatedSC2
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 25 2014 05:25 SatedSC2 wrote: Blink/Robo probably... but most PvP builds have soft-counters/favourable maps so it's hard to say. I wonder why people think blink robo is that safe. It would be interesting to see what the most optimal way of holding warp gate rushes with this build. Given the fact that you'd probably have to adapt the build upon scouting a 10gate or 4gate (everyobody goes 1 stalker or 1 sentry into twilight), I don't see how it can be that safe on 4 player maps... that is to say, unless you scout your opponent early. I'm also not sure about the proper reaction to 1 gate expands into robo, do you just accept that you're behind and expand later than your opponent? It would be nice to see some replays of blink/robo in this situation, but I can't recall this ever happening at pro level in hots. EDIT: Isn't dt/robo expand superior in almost every single way? You can much more easily counter-attack an aggressive player (and often times straight up win), shut down stargate openers sometimes, and even defend at home with dts. And you can get a faster nexus too. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
If you're worried about some kind of 3/4 warpgate all-in that's a different story, you scout that early on and change your build appropriately. If you're looking for a macro-oriented build, try some sort of 1 gate expand with sentries into 3 gate + robo. It's not the safest build out there but there aren't really any hard counters to it. In particular you might have trouble against stargate openers but with proper micro and execution it's doable. As for dt/robo expand, it's also a great build but not exactly a "superior" or "safe" build either. You'll instantly end up behind against a 1 gate expand, and if they are prepared for your DTs and kill your DTs without you doing any damage they might be able to just go and kill you. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On July 25 2014 07:25 rsvp wrote: I don't think there are really any "safe" PvP builds right now. No one does blink robo anymore because you'll quickly fall behind to economically greedier builds, while still be in danger of losing to a straight up blink all-in. Blink by itself is still a great safe-ish build though, so what you should do instead is open blink but scout well and then adapt based on what you scout. Ways to scout include mothership core scout, sentry first -> hallu scout, or pre-warpgate gateway pressure. Then if you see them going DTs you'll have time to add a robo, or if they open stargate or expand you can just all-in them, etc. If you're worried about some kind of 3/4 warpgate all-in that's a different story, you scout that early on and change your build appropriately. If you're looking for a macro-oriented build, try some sort of 1 gate expand with sentries into 3 gate + robo. It's not the safest build out there but there aren't really any hard counters to it. In particular you might have trouble against stargate openers but with proper micro and execution it's doable. As for dt/robo expand, it's also a great build but not exactly a "superior" or "safe" build either. You'll instantly end up behind against a 1 gate expand, and if they are prepared for your DTs and kill your DTs without you doing any damage they might be able to just go and kill you. Well, I've tried blink for quite a while now, but I'm pretty lost at the moment. I've gone back to dt expands on the ladder because my PvP win rate went down to almost 20% with mostly blink builds. I've tried to all in stargate and expanding players, but I must be doing something wrong because it never works. Maybe you guys can help me. It feels pretty difficult to break robo expands. The immortal count goes up and I get stuck doing an all-in that is doomed to fail. You can't put much pressure early on if you spend time looking for pylons, which makes your push weaker. On top of that, a well-hidden probe is still likely to get a pylon up anyway. Then, a counter attack hits your base as you're pushing, sometimes after you've just warped in aggressively (sayonora probes). Even if you manage to warp in defensively, that just stalls the push and the expanding player can still do some damage to your economy. Photon overcharge also buys quite a bit of time for immortals to come out. Against stargate builds, I usually leave at least 2 stalkers at home because of the threat of oracles, which already puts me behind in units (and as far as I know, you actually need 3 if there are 2 oracles on the map... and you can't know there are 2 oracles out before they come in either). I mean, the cost of a stargate + an oracle is the same as a twilight + blink, and if you leave 2 stalkers at home so that your mineral line doesn't get slaughtered (which doesn't mean he won't get any probes either), the other player gets the edge on the unit count and has photon overcharge available. If they warp in zealots to kill your stalkers at home and you've just warped in aggressively, you're kind screwed too because the oracle will decimate your mineral line. The stargate player can also buy time with photon overcharge. Counter expanding instead of doing an all--in also feels wrong. Blink is not strong in the midgame and only helps me if there's some sort of voidray push. It kinda helps deal with stargate harass, but you need to invest more on stalkers and/or cannons then the stargate player, and when you take a third, it's hard not to take economic damage without overcommiting to defense. The stargate player generally ends up with a better army and economy than me by the time I finally move out because they can cut corners in defense while I need to worry about oracles and phoenixes. And against a player going 1 gate expand into robo, you're also behind both economically and in tech, since blink stalkers aren't any good in the mid or late game. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
ok so far so good but when i try to complete the wall off at the natural that's where they come in with a bunch slowlings and snipe the pylon (at this point I have ONE zealot), then i muck around for a bit but eventually speed completes and i have 2-3 unpowered gates acting as the "wall" which of course walls off nothing at this point meaning GG. it's so irritating because it is so easy to hold if ONLY i could actually confirm what he's doing. please don't tell me scout more or hallu phoenix, this seems to be a timing where these will not come into play yet or there will be no energy for FF. don't forget i'm running off 1 gas. of course i can SEE the signs such as maybe 14p 15h and gas after but after the initial set of lings chase my probe out i'm left guessing as to wtf he is doing as these are not solid indicators of a ling all-in. Also I REALLY don't want to lose my scouting probe as obviously if there is no all-in I want to warp in and finish off their 3rd asap. seems very coinflippy to me. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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