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On July 13 2014 14:57 Jeep89 wrote: So I just started playing again after I really long time, and I'm having some problems with PvZ...I spend half the game trying to figure out how to block off my natural with the FFE. I haven't found anything yet that has detailed information for each of the current maps...And it pretty much puts me at a huge disadvantage when I am spending more resources and time trying to block this shit off. I have searched, and found detailed images of how to set it up for previous versions and their maps, but none for the latest version. If anyone can link me to a detailed post that covers this then that would be great. Thanks.
There are usually 2 ways to get a wall up. Either make a pylon that powers anything between the 2 edges of the area you want to wall (i.e. just enough to reach the edge, sometimes it can also be single square away from one of the edges, but that's not necessary) and wall off with a gate, a forge, a cybercore, and 1 pylon... or make a wall with 2 pylons as a part of it instead of 1, and wall off with a gate and another building.
I'm in Plat right now, just started playing again couple of days ago and trying to climb back to diamond or maybe even reach masters. Versus Zerg I like to play the San Gateway aggression into immortal push. At my level, if the Zerg goes for a quick 3rd I win 100% of the games with that strategy. However, most Zergs I meet seem to have problems with aggression and a lot of them just stay on 2 bases (or open with 1 base speedling, even worse). And that's where my problem is... all of the guides that i read on various PvZ all-ins seem to assume that every Zerg opens with a 3 Base opening and they don't even mention a "plan B".
Having switched races very recently (again), I lack the expierience to know what the hell to do in such a situation. Against 1 base speedling i will add a second gas and 2 more gates (I open 1 Gate FE every game) and expand after some sentries and zealots to be safe. Feels terrible though, as I have to add even more gates shortly after to wall-off my natural. Those games I usually win after holding of their aggression and then chrono some probes and warpgate all-in them but I wonder if there is a "cleaner" solution. I was playing with the idea to get a quick stargate -> oracle, but is it possible to hold a strong 1 base all in with that?
Against a 2 base opening I'm at a loss, really. I'm sitting on 3-4 gates and 1 gas and he just won't expand... I generally add a quick stargate here and try to deal some damage with an oracle and find out what he's up to. So far, I've been able to defend any roach all-ins with void rays, MSC, Immos and Gateways, but sometimes they don't even attack and instead just macro up, e.g. to swarm hosts. This is where my main problem lies. I have trouble reading the scouting information correctly. Also, at this point I'm really afraid to step out on the map to pressure. Can you guys give me a couple of Benchmarks to look out for? When is a good time to push and what units should I have at that point? Also, at what point in time should I assume that he's not going for 3 base and change course? If anyone happens to know some recent pro games where the zerg does not go for 3 base I would be grateful, too.
I feel confident enough to play a macro game once I deal significant damage to the zerg but If I fail at that I get destroyed quite hard.
Another quick question, is the 10Gate/3Gate stuff in PvP viable at a higher level or is it just a gimmicky strat that relies on your opponent going for a greedy/risky build? (I know it's cheesy but i don't like how volatile PvP can be)
You dont have to change your openings against speedling expand; the earliest he can hit with ling speed is (if i remember right) 5:20, so as long as you have your wall set up by then you will always be good. Every protoss opening can hold one z base allins, even though stupid shit like 10pool speed can be tough if you dont probe scout.
If you can secure a proxy pylon (harder vs speedlings, but doable), you can actually give zero fucks and still pressure a 2base tech build; if you can't get a probe on the map just chrono probes and go for a standard stargate midgame imo. 2base tech zerg builds are absolutely awful because they live your opponent with a really, really terrible economy, which means that if you handle them correctly you'll be miles ahead: 1) As usual vs mutas you need to get phoenix and/or blink 2) Against 2 base swarm host you need to counter attack either with a warp prism or proxy pylon, and most importantly you can NOT let a strong contain get up. Use your stargate and gateway units to deny any nyuds from going up, while teching up to colossus. This game is the perfect example of what to do against it:
3) Against any kind of shitty roach/hydra busts, make sentries, immortals, colossi, use photon overcharge.
edit: 10gate/3gate is a powerful all-in at any level of play
On July 13 2014 14:57 Jeep89 wrote: So I just started playing again after I really long time, and I'm having some problems with PvZ...I spend half the game trying to figure out how to block off my natural with the FFE. I haven't found anything yet that has detailed information for each of the current maps...And it pretty much puts me at a huge disadvantage when I am spending more resources and time trying to block this shit off. I have searched, and found detailed images of how to set it up for previous versions and their maps, but none for the latest version. If anyone can link me to a detailed post that covers this then that would be great. Thanks.
There are usually 2 ways to get a wall up. Either make a pylon that powers anything between the 2 edges of the area you want to wall (i.e. just enough to reach the edge, sometimes it can also be single square away from one of the edges, but that's not necessary) and wall off with a gate, a forge, a cybercore, and 1 pylon... or make a wall with 2 pylons as a part of it instead of 1, and wall off with a gate and another building.
Does anyone have written build orders for Pigbaby's mass observer/zealot style in PvT - Like he showcased against Taeja in WCS? (Specially the more standard versions where he delays colossus to get double forge and everything else up and running first)
Edit: That carrier build definitely looks like a fun experiment
Edit++: Having 7 observers out on the map seems like the closest thing to a legit version of maphack, and using zealots as the core focus of the army is pretty nice diversion from the usual rush colossus/blink. Having 10 gate warp-ins that quick also seems pretty fun not to mention double upgrades :D
Does anyone have written build orders for Pigbaby's mass observer/zealot style in PvT - Like he showcased against Taeja in WCS? (Specially the more standard versions where he delays colossus to get double forge and everything else up and running first)
On July 15 2014 18:54 SatedSC2 wrote: I was looking for a safer 1 Gate FE in PvT because I've been having a hell of a lot of trouble against Widow Mine or Hellion drops combined with Marine pokes and I managed to find this old guide that Flatline (GM Protoss) made towards the start of HotS:
Thanks for this. I was looking for something similar to try, but my request ended in a "learn how to macro better" response. I've been using MC's 1-gate FE from WoL, as mentioned in my post a ways back.
On July 18 2014 06:10 SatedSC2 wrote: No problem. Make sure you watch the video, it's really informative about PvT in general.
Like I said, it's an old build and it's obviously less economic than some other builds, but I think it's fine
Can u explain more on how u are having trouble with widowmine/ hellion drops? With normal gateway expand -> robo u can get 4 stalkers out before warpgate finishes to deny widow mine /hellion/marine drops. I use my first stalker (or msc) to confirm expansion and how late the expansion is. If it is later than usual then i use 2 chronoboosts on gateway to get one more stalker. Then when warpgate completes i warpin one more for 6 stalkers + MSC by 7:30 and it should be an easy hold. This is all done with no probe cuts except for MSC. also robo goes down at 5:00 to get an observer out the same time when the fastest possible drop hits (6:30)
edit: of course on 4 player maps you might have some trouble scouting it in time
On July 18 2014 06:10 SatedSC2 wrote: No problem. Make sure you watch the video, it's really informative about PvT in general.
Like I said, it's an old build and it's obviously less economic than some other builds, but I think it's fine
Can u explain more on how u are having trouble with widowmine/ hellion drops? With normal gateway expand -> robo u can get 4 stalkers out before warpgate finishes to deny widow mine /hellion/marine drops. I use my first stalker (or msc) to confirm expansion and how late the expansion is. If it is later than usual then i use 2 chronoboosts on gateway to get one more stalker. Then when warpgate completes i warpin one more for 6 stalkers + MSC by 7:30 and it should be an easy hold. This is all done with no probe cuts except for MSC. also robo goes down at 5:00 to get an observer out the same time when the fastest possible drop hits (6:30)
edit: of course on 4 player maps you might have some trouble scouting it in time
"4 stalkers out before warpgate finishes" "when warpgate completes i warpin one more for 6 stalkers"
4+1=6 ???
In any case, I've solved the problem I was having by picking a build more suited to my style/ability and I'm happy with that
I think the reason being that doing a build that's good vs fast aggression, when you aren't against aggression you are a bit behind and might open yourself to later timings.
However adjusting an existing build that is good vs either situation (good vs aggression and greed) is a bit more stable and nuanced than just having a blind soft counter build.
But its based on whatever you feel comfortable with.
On July 18 2014 06:10 SatedSC2 wrote: No problem. Make sure you watch the video, it's really informative about PvT in general.
Like I said, it's an old build and it's obviously less economic than some other builds, but I think it's fine
Can u explain more on how u are having trouble with widowmine/ hellion drops? With normal gateway expand -> robo u can get 4 stalkers out before warpgate finishes to deny widow mine /hellion/marine drops. I use my first stalker (or msc) to confirm expansion and how late the expansion is. If it is later than usual then i use 2 chronoboosts on gateway to get one more stalker. Then when warpgate completes i warpin one more for 6 stalkers + MSC by 7:30 and it should be an easy hold. This is all done with no probe cuts except for MSC. also robo goes down at 5:00 to get an observer out the same time when the fastest possible drop hits (6:30)
edit: of course on 4 player maps you might have some trouble scouting it in time
"4 stalkers out before warpgate finishes" "when warpgate completes i warpin one more for 6 stalkers"
4+1=6 ???
In any case, I've solved the problem I was having by picking a build more suited to my style/ability and I'm happy with that
read it more carefully, i said 2 chronboosts for one more stalker opposed to 4. so 4 + 1 +1
On July 18 2014 07:31 Teoita wrote: In early game pvt it's fine to skip sentries and scout with observers actually.
Not as quick. I like knowing early on what's going on if I'm planning to macro (it's half the reason I opened 2 Gate Robo for so long in WoL =P). Like the video shows, the Hallucination scout will get to the Terran base before they even start trying to drop you or anything. It's really good for scouting information.
Anyway, like I said, it is a super-safe build. If people are comfortable with whatever they do now then there's no reason to even consider it. I just figured there'd be more than me who might find it useful =)
Yeah, it's totally fine to open with a sentry for safety. It's not ideal, but you can't argue with a safe ladder build. However, I've always just reveled in the fact that Protoss can technically hold any Terran aggression blindly, so I just focus on a solid opening with lots of stalkers.
A good way to get a read on what the Terran is doing is to do a 13 scout after gate (guaranteed to get into the base against a normal walloff) to scout the gas timing. If it's a normal 12 or 13 gas, you can just follow up with a stalker poke using your first stalker (leaving MSC + second stalker at home to defend). Using this poke, you can count marines, spot the presence of mines or hellions, etc. Usually, if the marine count is higher than 5, it's a standard build (unless they're doing some kind of silly 1-base 3rax shenanigans lol).
ugh yeah it's a really old build and i never chronoboost wg anymore as I realize wg isn't THAT important unless they go gas first (then you might want to depending on how you want to deal with gas first...personally i deal with it by using phoenixes)
I use a new build that's a lot better imo just not sure how to make a video on it b/c there's different responses to what you scout and plus the new map pool makes it hard to scout really early (I LOVE to 9 scout and I would recommend this on 2 player maps...3 player map is okay as you have a 50/50 chance of scouting first...4 player maps I discourage from 9scouting)
9 Pylon (Scout & Chronoboost Probes 4 times) 14 Gateway 15 Assimilator (only 2 probes in gas) 16 Pylon 19 Cybernetics Core (rally probe in gas once you have 16 mining minerals and return scouting probe @2:45) 20 Zealot (Cancel if you see no ebay block) 21 Nexus 21 Mothership Core (Chronoboost) 23 Assimilator 23 Pylon 24 Warpgate 25 Stalker 29 Robotics Facility 30 Gateway 32 Sentry
If you want the entire build you can rip it from this replay and you can see the slight change I do on 4 player maps compared to the 2 player map
EPT
