EPTI'd stick to learning a good blink all-in and a 3gate (maybe off 10/11 gate) type of build.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 274
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I'd stick to learning a good blink all-in and a 3gate (maybe off 10/11 gate) type of build. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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owlman
France58 Posts
It's strange to me cause i almost only play FE in ladders at high masters level and i don't have any troubles except vs some very well microed stargate all-ins. What's your thoughts Teoita? | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24593 Posts
On July 08 2014 17:42 owlman wrote: Why is FE not popular anymore ? in a pro match bo5 in only see this once usually. It's strange to me cause i almost only play FE in ladders at high masters level and i don't have any troubles except vs some very well microed stargate all-ins. What's your thoughts Teoita? I think gateway-builds are often just as safe and give you more and earlier timings. FFE is pretty figured out, and gateway builds, whether nex-gate or vice versa gives you the chance to do a lot of different tech and whatnot. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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hellokittySC2
United States395 Posts
On July 08 2014 06:42 SatedSC2 wrote: I prefer to go for HelloKitty's 13/15 Gate -> 4 Gate all-in if I'm going to do a straight up Gateway all-in. It actually crushes a 10 Gate 3 Gate fairly comfortably, and it's blindly good against a lot of proxy Gateway builds because you're banking chrono boost and you're getting two very early Gateways. I'm only looking to see the MVP 3 Gate because I imagine TAiLS had a lot to do with its existence and anything he does is something I tend to like xD what's my 13/15 gate? i dont quite understand. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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justnny
United States171 Posts
These builds bait the overcharge and clear out probes, the mothership core, or units; force units like immortals instead of tech; waltz in and snipe my big tech units before they kick off; SCV pull; or they just contain me on two bases while they take 3+; I even ran into two different 1-1-1 builds- one 1-base and one 2-base. Many of these builds are mixing in the ebay block, which is not something that was happening much before. The pros were using 1-gate FE a lot, though there aren't that many recent PvT games to pull from. I've been using the build for months now without issue. I now no longer feel like that is working. I was going 1-gate FE, forge, robo and either chargelot archon or colossus but I cannot survive that long anymore. Since the last mine buff, mines are more popular and I shifted towards colossus builds. Last night I went back to MC's WoL PvT build with either 1-gate FE into 3-gate robo or 1-gate FE into robo 3-gate and that just gets contained. Any thoughts? A couple replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5204403 - He pressured early, contained me. I went colossus into double forge while he took 3 bases and massed MMM + viking. He defended my attempted DT drop easily. http://ggtracker.com/matches/5204412 - He pressured early and contained me. I tried to counter with a no range fast colossus and walked into a pile of MMM mid-map. | ||
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hellokittySC2
United States395 Posts
On July 08 2014 18:57 SatedSC2 wrote: 9 Pylon (Chrono Probes Once When Complete) 13 Gate (Scout) 14 Gas 15 Gate 16 Cybernetics Core 17 Pylon 18 Cut Probes @100% Pylon: 2 Zealots (Send Straight Across The Map) @100% Cybernetics Core: WG Research (Chrono Constantly) @100% Zealots: 2 Stalkers (Send Straight Across The Map) @300 Minerals: 2 Gateways Build Proxy Pylons Warp-In Things (~5:35ish) GG Pretty sure I saw you doing it anyway. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not your build, but it definitely works better than a standard 4 Gate or a 10 Gate 3 Gate xD i think the timing might work better with a 12 gate instead of 13, with 13 your timing is off by a long shot. and this build is only good in close position maps, theres a 1 gate into 3 gate (from wol) thats more versatile edit: I dont think you scout with this build until you put down your core | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On July 09 2014 01:51 justnny wrote: Over the last week and a half of Season 2, my PvT went from 60% w/l to 55% to 50% in Season 3. It seems Terrans learned how to apply constant early pressure with soft contains. I've been preaching the benefits for months now but why all of a sudden is it happening? I haven't seen anything in the pro games to indicate this trend, but upper Plat/low Diamond has shifted. These builds bait the overcharge and clear out probes, the mothership core, or units; force units like immortals instead of tech; waltz in and snipe my big tech units before they kick off; SCV pull; or they just contain me on two bases while they take 3+; I even ran into two different 1-1-1 builds- one 1-base and one 2-base. Many of these builds are mixing in the ebay block, which is not something that was happening much before. The pros were using 1-gate FE a lot, though there aren't that many recent PvT games to pull from. I've been using the build for months now without issue. I now no longer feel like that is working. I was going 1-gate FE, forge, robo and either chargelot archon or colossus but I cannot survive that long anymore. Since the last mine buff, mines are more popular and I shifted towards colossus builds. Last night I went back to MC's WoL PvT build with either 1-gate FE into 3-gate robo or 1-gate FE into robo 3-gate and that just gets contained. Any thoughts? http://ggtracker.com/matches/5204412 - He pressured early and contained me. I tried to counter with a no range fast colossus and walked into a pile of MMM mid-map. I don't really understand the description. He didn't contain you, he just forced an overcharge and sniped your sentries (your fault). At 9:45 you had 200 gas floating which is enough to start range. Why didnt u start it? @11:00 You saw him move out with a superior bio force compared to your army. But you decide to stay and fight anyway? why? Consider refining your build more. You only had one observer, any multiprong drops will auto kill you. I suggest using your first 2 stalkers to get mapcontrol and take your gas geysers earlier (6:30ish). Then make nonstop observers from robo (up to 3-4) until robotics bay finishes. I see most people in masters and GM get an earlier robo bay and completely skip the immortal. If pressure happens overcharge is used to buy time for first colossus @16:05 He was rally units across the map which means if u attack u force a basetrade. But it is understandable since you are significantly behind. @16:50 If a fight happens you need to pop at least 1 guardian shield immediately. +1 armor zealots + guardian shield takes a long time to die. Overall you lost because of bad decision making and not good enough macro (unnecessary probe cuts) You needed a lot more observers to defend against drops. The sentry snipe at start and late natural gases made you gas starved and losing your first rangeless colossus and not starting range sooner cost you the game | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 09 2014 09:00 AkashSky wrote: Whats a good way to prevent creep spread in the PvZ matchup? What are some early and late game options to take out creep with low risk, I don't want my army to be caught by the zergs on creep, so I am scared to move on it to fight. In general, if your goal is to limit creep, you have several ways to do that. One way is to target the queens, so that creep tumors cannot be laid down as frequently. Phoenix openers are very good for that: queens out on the map laying creep get murdered, and you can pick off stray queens near hatcheries as well. Another way is to continually push on creep like terran does. Get an observer or an oracle for detection, walk on creep, kill a bit, and walk out. For this to be viable, you need to be heavy on army in the mid-game, and have a way to retreat if he comes at you (like recall, or a large number of sentries). The third way is just to target the creep directly, explicitly. My favorite method for this is to open oracle into void ray. The oracle does a small amount of initial harass, then comes back for detection while you fly a void ray around sniping creep tumors. This leads up to void ray/colossus compositions very well, if you enjoy that style. As a general rule, the more pressure you put on the opponent, the less creep they will have. If you sit in your base and turtle, there's nothing you've got going that will limit creep. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On July 09 2014 09:00 AkashSky wrote: Whats a good way to prevent creep spread in the PvZ matchup? What are some early and late game options to take out creep with low risk, I don't want my army to be caught by the zergs on creep, so I am scared to move on it to fight. early game you can use a warp prism with some stalkers in it as well as an observer to clear creep out...can use an oracle with stored energy to cast envision then use the beam to kill the creep tumors as well late game you can use a dt and an observer and have the dt just shift a click all over the creep and just have the observer follow the dt | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On July 09 2014 09:47 Whitewing wrote: In general, if your goal is to limit creep, you have several ways to do that. One way is to target the queens, so that creep tumors cannot be laid down as frequently. Phoenix openers are very good for that: queens out on the map laying creep get murdered, and you can pick off stray queens near hatcheries as well. Another way is to continually push on creep like terran does. Get an observer or an oracle for detection, walk on creep, kill a bit, and walk out. For this to be viable, you need to be heavy on army in the mid-game, and have a way to retreat if he comes at you (like recall, or a large number of sentries). The third way is just to target the creep directly, explicitly. My favorite method for this is to open oracle into void ray. The oracle does a small amount of initial harass, then comes back for detection while you fly a void ray around sniping creep tumors. This leads up to void ray/colossus compositions very well, if you enjoy that style. As a general rule, the more pressure you put on the opponent, the less creep they will have. If you sit in your base and turtle, there's nothing you've got going that will limit creep. Hmm, my problem with opening phoenix is that my control with them is really poor. I am going to try your oracle into voidray suggestion, it seems the least apm intensive. Also, as you said having a large mid-game army helps too, so I believe that having a large midgame means having a later third base. What unit composition transitions best from the stargate tech path? I want to be using the stargate all game long, so I think I will continually make void rays. What units best support void rays? | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 09 2014 10:42 AkashSky wrote: Hmm, my problem with opening phoenix is that my control with them is really poor. I am going to try your oracle into voidray suggestion, it seems the least apm intensive. Also, as you said having a large mid-game army helps too, so I believe that having a large midgame means having a later third base. What unit composition transitions best from the stargate tech path? I want to be using the stargate all game long, so I think I will continually make void rays. What units best support void rays? Well no, it doesn't mean later 3rd base. It actually means an earlier third base, or a lower tech based composition. An army that's primarily gateway units can be bigger than an army that's colossus/voidray a lot faster, because the units are cheaper and can be produced quicker. Strategically your best bet to get better is to play strategies that are too hard for you, and practice them until you get them down. If it's hard to go phoenix, that's a good reason to keep doing it, even if means you lose. Also, the oracle opener into void ray is not a light APM strategy: you have to micro the oracle to get any damage with it quite well at first without losing it, while still doing all your macro stuff. Regardless, as for void rays, there are a number of compositions and strategies that go with it, and I believe there are some guides. Sentries and chargelots go well with voids in the midgame, colossus obviously do well with void rays, and storm can go very well with them also once you're on 3-4 bases. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
I'm always in the process of updating the OP, so are there any outlying things that need to be addressed in regards to recent changes in the game or important things that have been explained multiple times in this thread and really just need to go in the OP? Is there anything that specifically needs updating in the OP? Currently doing a lot of stuff, so I appreciate everyone's feedback in helping me tidy up this thread a bit. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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