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United States4883 Posts
On September 25 2014 06:52 Enigmasc wrote:sorry if my first post came across as a bit whiney, was just tilting hard because my zvt is so bad right now -_- so basically go much much lighter on the mutas rather than the old style of going up to 25+ muta? which tournament was so0 vs flash btw? just wondering where ill get the replay from  or is it behind a paywall?
Np, at least you own up to it. It's from this season of GSL, so you'll have to wait until the end of the season if you want to watch the whole thing. But you can still watch the first game, which I'm pretty sure is that style. It still goes up to ~25 mutas, it just gets them a lot slower, which honestly, is brilliant; I don't know why people try to rush up the muta numbers so fast.
If you look at my Older notes on Revival's ZvT, it's very similar and based off of maxing out ~14:00 and crushing the Terran's mid game timing.
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it is pretty brilliant. i find the hardest thing about mixing up your larva rounds instead of just holding ddddddddd zzzzzzzz mmmmmm eeeeeeee until you run out of resources is having the calm and clarity to actually do it. a lot of times i feel the pressure to just do everything as fast as possible especially in a fast paced matchup like zvt, back in my lower league days i would make a lot of mistakes like overmaking a unit or overmicroing my army because of this. because sc2 is a spectator esport, there's kind of a natural "tryhard" function built in that can make you feel like you're playing "wrong" if you aren't flipping camera hotkeys and boxing units 20 times per second. some of the best advice i ever got was to slow down, play smart, think about what the hell you're doing and stop trying to be fast until you actually understand your own goals
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Regarding the ZvT builds jowj and sc2 john posted, are these skipping a spine at 6min?
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Northern Ireland281 Posts
On September 25 2014 05:43 velvex wrote:
Btw, does anyone else feel this thread has become a bit overblown and hard to read? There are a lot of questions with replays and self-analysis that would actually qualify for separate threads, and there are hardly any [H] tags on the thread list. There used to be way more [H] threads.
This thread has been a super valuable resource for me getting back into relearning how to play properly. Whilst it can be a bit hard to sift through the information, the way in which people have a proper conversation about stuff over time gives a unique insight into 'why' you should do stuff. I feel like this one thread has helped me more than anything else i've read about ZvX simply because i can see WHY stuff is how it is. Its infuriating attempting to learn stuff when you don't understand the underlying reason stuff happens.
It would be cool if stuff was bookmarked or referenced more easily or something, but for the sheer quantity of information that passes through here, it would be a hard job for one person keeping track of it all.
TL:DR; I'm a newb and this thread is my favorite part of TL.
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TL is also extremely strict about posting standards so it's very understandable if people don't want to start their own threads for questions or replay analysis. some people can be officious jerks (talking about users not mods) if a newer user posts a low content thread
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United States4883 Posts
On September 25 2014 15:56 Running wrote:
Regarding the ZvT builds jowj and sc2 john posted, are these skipping a spine at 6min?
Depends on how safe you feel. To be honest, if you're getting early tech and scouting well, a spine crawler is not always necessary. If you're not completely sure what's coming your way or not so confident in your queen/ling control, a spine crawler is totally acceptable, although the timing is closer to 6:30 than 6:00.
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On September 25 2014 17:47 Tzyx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2014 05:43 velvex wrote:
Btw, does anyone else feel this thread has become a bit overblown and hard to read? There are a lot of questions with replays and self-analysis that would actually qualify for separate threads, and there are hardly any [H] tags on the thread list. There used to be way more [H] threads. This thread has been a super valuable resource for me getting back into relearning how to play properly. Whilst it can be a bit hard to sift through the information, the way in which people have a proper conversation about stuff over time gives a unique insight into 'why' you should do stuff. I feel like this one thread has helped me more than anything else i've read about ZvX simply because i can see WHY stuff is how it is. Its infuriating attempting to learn stuff when you don't understand the underlying reason stuff happens. It would be cool if stuff was bookmarked or referenced more easily or something, but for the sheer quantity of information that passes through here, it would be a hard job for one person keeping track of it all. TL:DR; I'm a newb and this thread is my favorite part of TL.
Maybe we could add links to the OP to pages/posts that are extra useful or just if there's discussion about something interesting over several pages just writing something like: "Discussion about roach hydra in ZvT - page 195-198", sort of like an index, which could just be under a spoiler tag at the end of OP.
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United States248 Posts
On September 26 2014 00:11 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2014 17:47 Tzyx wrote:On September 25 2014 05:43 velvex wrote:
Btw, does anyone else feel this thread has become a bit overblown and hard to read? There are a lot of questions with replays and self-analysis that would actually qualify for separate threads, and there are hardly any [H] tags on the thread list. There used to be way more [H] threads. This thread has been a super valuable resource for me getting back into relearning how to play properly. Whilst it can be a bit hard to sift through the information, the way in which people have a proper conversation about stuff over time gives a unique insight into 'why' you should do stuff. I feel like this one thread has helped me more than anything else i've read about ZvX simply because i can see WHY stuff is how it is. Its infuriating attempting to learn stuff when you don't understand the underlying reason stuff happens. It would be cool if stuff was bookmarked or referenced more easily or something, but for the sheer quantity of information that passes through here, it would be a hard job for one person keeping track of it all. TL:DR; I'm a newb and this thread is my favorite part of TL. Maybe we could add links to the OP to pages/posts that are extra useful or just if there's discussion about something interesting over several pages just writing something like: "Discussion about roach hydra in ZvT - page 195-198", sort of like an index, which could just be under a spoiler tag at the end of OP.
This sounds really cool. I'm willing to work on it to make it happen but I'd need help - I truly don't have time to read the whole thread through to find up to date information/interesting discussions. If people want to PM me page numbers with interesting discussion (like oh 75-76 has interesting early pool talk!) or whatever I can curate it and then make sure it gets edited into the OP.
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Thx to Jowj, SC2John and also velvex for your quick and helpful replies! I very much appreciate the effort! I will work through what you suggested.
@Jowj: I will definetely get back to you on the replays. I will be on vacation for the next 9 days so Im gonna contact you afterwards.
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What is the most standard, macro-oriented build order as Zerg in ZvP.
I'm looking for something that has similar impact as the 3-hatch-Muta build did have in SC:BW
Please don't post any builds, I'm looking for something really specific here.
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On September 26 2014 08:03 Ju!cy wrote:
What is the most standard, macro-oriented build order as Zerg in ZvP.
I'm looking for something that has similar impact as the 3-hatch-Muta build did have in SC:BW
Please don't post any builds, I'm looking for something really specific here.
Not really sure what you mean by a standard macro build and then that you're only looking for a really specific build and don't want people to post builds?
If you want a standard macro build you'll be the one reacting to the protoss as you won't be able to put on aggression before he has decided what kind of build he's going for if you want to drone up 3 bases. Basically what I do is to go gasless 3 base by either 15 hatch, 17 hatch, 18 pool or 15 pool, 15 hatch, 22-25 hatch and then grab double gas around 5:45, try to figure out if he's doing a really early attack and then go RW + ling speed or else go straight for lair, 2 more gases and drone up my 3 bases then make some lings and get a hydra den asap and go for like 12 hydras and from there on you can react to the protoss by either going quick hive for vipers, or getting spire to go in to mutas, go SH or whatever.
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A question for the Lord of 10 pools, in ZvZ and in general, is it better to 10 pool on 2 players maps or 3/4 players maps, disregarding rush distance?
Also, if you find a building hatch with the 6 lings, do you focus it immediately or go hunt some drones before the queen is done?
Thanks!
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is it worth it to start a hatch and cancel at a P's natural to slow them down? I've seen a couple of pro's ie. Golden vs Welmu, where Golden blocked the P natural to slow them down. As long as I have a solid plan to transition out of this move is it worth practicing or is this more of a tournament situation to catch somebody off guard?
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United States4883 Posts
On September 26 2014 09:51 VengefulTree wrote:
A question for the Lord of 10 pools, in ZvZ and in general, is it better to 10 pool on 2 players maps or 3/4 players maps, disregarding rush distance?
Also, if you find a building hatch with the 6 lings, do you focus it immediately or go hunt some drones before the queen is done?
Thanks!
I'll be happy to take the title of Lord of 10pools, if you'll allow me  . Imo, 9pool is better than 10pool in the meta now because most builds can handle 10pools without losing the natural hatch, so unless you go gas and super all-in, 10pools just aren't very strong. 9pools, however, hit like 15 seconds earlier and are much more powerful.
On 3-player and 4-player maps, you'll very commonly see people go pool first to be safe against any aggro builds like 10pool/speed or spine crawler rush or whatever can possibly come their way early on. Therefore, I would say that doing something like a 9pool is more reliable on a 2-player map where your opponent is more likely to take chances because of the comfort of easy scouting. However, something like a 12pool or 13pool is quite good on 3-player maps in that it can help you punish/catch up to greedier builds while also defending solidly against any early cheese; in short, it reduces the "coinflip" nature of 3-player and 4-player map scouting + build orders.
It's hard to say if you should focus on drones or the hatch, and I think it very heavily depends on your followup plan. For instance, my plan is to cancel my opponent's hatch so that I can take a lead in bases, defend my opponent's counter without using gas (with queens/spines), and then start to pull ahead in economy. You might feel more comfortable transitioning into a safer expand with banelings, in which case picking off drones and/or delaying your opponent's gas income might be a better strategy to employ there. Remember to think about what you where you want to be later on in the game whenever you find yourself stuck in a question like that.
On September 26 2014 10:00 bigbadgreen wrote:
is it worth it to start a hatch and cancel at a P's natural to slow them down? I've seen a couple of pro's ie. Golden vs Welmu, where Golden blocked the P natural to slow them down. As long as I have a solid plan to transition out of this move is it worth practicing or is this more of a tournament situation to catch somebody off guard?
I'm of the opinion that hatch blocks are universally awful, but they work a surprising amount in tournaments, and I think a lot of that has to do with greed and players' tendencies to cut scouting of certain things. In short, hatch blocking CAN be transitioned out of and sometimes almost looks solid, but against a player who really knows what they're doing and spots it immediately, it's pretty terrible. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend this as a ladder build, but it might be something fun to through into a BoX to throw your opponent off guard.
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I'm losing my mind over zerg mirrors vs bane muta. The only way I can fight it is with bane muta. roach/hydra requires me to stay way too defensive while he out expands me. infestor hydra just doesnt work. Mutas dodge fungals too easily now and it always seems to be the case that they have way more banes than make sense. Id really appreciate a good way to counter this but I have a feeling most zergs just follow their opponent into bane muta. Id rather not do that.
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On September 26 2014 10:42 hatp wrote:
I'm losing my mind over zerg mirrors vs bane muta. The only way I can fight it is with bane muta. roach/hydra requires me to stay way too defensive while he out expands me. infestor hydra just doesnt work. Mutas dodge fungals too easily now and it always seems to be the case that they have way more banes than make sense. Id really appreciate a good way to counter this but I have a feeling most zergs just follow their opponent into bane muta. Id rather not do that.
I do a +1 roach timing to try to kill their third while I drone my own third and go in to roach hydra infestor. Muta ling bane should not beat it, just be careful about your positioning and keep roaches in front and separate a few roaches to be "spotters" for baneling flanks. I find it more useful to try and separate a part of their army with fungal and fight another and be really careful with your army movement rather than trying to take one big fight and fungal as much as possible.
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Thanks a ton SC2John, great insight, you're da man
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On September 26 2014 11:27 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2014 10:42 hatp wrote:
I'm losing my mind over zerg mirrors vs bane muta. The only way I can fight it is with bane muta. roach/hydra requires me to stay way too defensive while he out expands me. infestor hydra just doesnt work. Mutas dodge fungals too easily now and it always seems to be the case that they have way more banes than make sense. Id really appreciate a good way to counter this but I have a feeling most zergs just follow their opponent into bane muta. Id rather not do that. I do a +1 roach timing to try to kill their third while I drone my own third and go in to roach hydra infestor. Muta ling bane should not beat it, just be careful about your positioning and keep roaches in front and separate a few roaches to be "spotters" for baneling flanks. I find it more useful to try and separate a part of their army with fungal and fight another and be really careful with your army movement rather than trying to take one big fight and fungal as much as possible.
Much appreciated. Any chance you or anyone else have a replay of something like this working?
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What is the optimal response to the popular Terran cheese rush that hits at 7:20 with 4 hellbats and 6 marines + medivac?
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EPT
