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NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
The second thing is the unorthodoxly imba strategy of proxy reaper. He gets the first reaper before my pool is done and two or even four reapers when I have like one queen and four lings. This is impossible to win vs right? Micro is no problem since playing Wc3 for 10 years. I'm btw former master and probably high diamond right now. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 04 2014 00:17 NaboliC wrote: Alright two things, I'm done with this zvt vs hellbats. Lings just die in millions vs this imba unit and queens too. When I asked TLO in the chat why he didn't make roaches vs hellbats he told something about that you get stuck in a terrible composition when you did that. But what I can see, roaches is the only way to counter mass hellbat marines? The second thing is the unorthodoxly imba strategy of proxy reaper. He gets the first reaper before my pool is done and two or even four reapers when I have like one queen and four lings. This is impossible to win vs right? Micro is no problem since playing Wc3 for 10 years. I'm btw former master and probably high diamond right now. Those strats are totally imba and we can't help you. There is literally no way to win vs those and I am sure you're playing perfectly. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2014 23:21 Varroth wrote: Are there any tips and tricks that I could use to play faster / get better? I got around gold level in the first week of playing zerg but now I don't really know what to do to improve. I know what to hotkey and when to build stuff and I'm good at telling when someone will do cheeses / allins but bad when it comes to the lategame not sure what I can do to improve. My APM is around 140 when i play good but mostly around 120 as I don't really put much effort into my games. Just practice macro exercises and doing builds 100% perfectly against the comp. Going faster is not about actually moving faster, it's about finding more things to do in the pockets of time that you have. Anyone can have 200+ APM easy, but you're going to want to focus on just doing things correctly and your APM will naturally just get higher without having to force yourself to play faster. Just make sure your creep spread, injects, and larva usage are consistent, and you'll easily average 140 APM without even taking micro into account. I highly suggest the inject/creep spread map that's in arcade as well as firing up some custom games against the comp and practicing a strategy like HyuN's +1/+1 roach timing up to 10:30 until it's perfect. On July 04 2014 00:15 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: What's the best method to punish a terran player picking up and dropping my 2 expos on alterzim (backdoor and front expo)? I ran into 2 of them today and I got my ass kicked both times, all they had to do was go back and forth. You always want to have the mutas and lings on opposite sides of the maps (unless you're engaging) to deal with drops. If you're having particular difficult with a Terran dropping back and forth, shift-click 2-3 banes and a few lings at the bottom of your screen and leave them at that expansion. Personally, I've just gotten into the habit of having 2 ling/bling control groups just to better control space; when you need to engage, you can just bring them together. On July 04 2014 00:17 NaboliC wrote: Alright two things, I'm done with this zvt vs hellbats. Lings just die in millions vs this imba unit and queens too. When I asked TLO in the chat why he didn't make roaches vs hellbats he told something about that you get stuck in a terrible composition when you did that. But what I can see, roaches is the only way to counter mass hellbat marines? The second thing is the unorthodoxly imba strategy of proxy reaper. He gets the first reaper before my pool is done and two or even four reapers when I have like one queen and four lings. This is impossible to win vs right? Micro is no problem since playing Wc3 for 10 years. I'm btw former master and probably high diamond right now. 1) Versus the hellbat timings, feel free to get 4-10 roaches to defend every game. At the tip top level, where TLO is, getting ANY amount of roaches slows down everything significantly, which is a major problem for such thin margins of error. But masters and below, it's still fine to defend with roaches if you're not feeling comfortable holding it any other way. You CAN counter it with a few early banes (a lot of players are starting to reverse the order of baneling nest and +1/+1) and/or a good amount of queens + a spine crawler and lings, but it's much harder. 2) Against proxy reaper, you just have to buy enough time for speed to finish. Once speed is finished, the reapers can't do any damage. In the meantime, try to lose as few drones and queens as possible. If you have to build a spine crawler, do it. Overall, I get the impression that you play on the slimmest of margins with minimal defense then wonder why you can't deal with things. Stop making your life difficult and invest in a few safety nets lol. | ||
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NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
On July 04 2014 00:55 Karpfen wrote: Those strats are totally imba and we can't help you. There is literally no way to win vs those and I am sure you're playing perfectly. You probably can't help me anyway, then don't write. On July 04 2014 01:33 Alchemik wrote: NaboliC, did you try to hold with queen/bane? With maybe a spine or two. I don't have that much experience vs those hellbat builds, so I can't really help, but queen/bane seems to be a good response. It sometimes work with all my 5-6 queens, one spine and mass lings/eventually blings. But without that it's not easy at all. The question is if i should go for roaches and delay my tech and mutas because of this or just make some more spines and some more queens maybe. On July 04 2014 04:20 SC2John wrote: Just practice macro exercises and doing builds 100% perfectly against the comp. Going faster is not about actually moving faster, it's about finding more things to do in the pockets of time that you have. Anyone can have 200+ APM easy, but you're going to want to focus on just doing things correctly and your APM will naturally just get higher without having to force yourself to play faster. Just make sure your creep spread, injects, and larva usage are consistent, and you'll easily average 140 APM without even taking micro into account. I highly suggest the inject/creep spread map that's in arcade as well as firing up some custom games against the comp and practicing a strategy like HyuN's +1/+1 roach timing up to 10:30 until it's perfect. You always want to have the mutas and lings on opposite sides of the maps (unless you're engaging) to deal with drops. If you're having particular difficult with a Terran dropping back and forth, shift-click 2-3 banes and a few lings at the bottom of your screen and leave them at that expansion. Personally, I've just gotten into the habit of having 2 ling/bling control groups just to better control space; when you need to engage, you can just bring them together. 1) Versus the hellbat timings, feel free to get 4-10 roaches to defend every game. At the tip top level, where TLO is, getting ANY amount of roaches slows down everything significantly, which is a major problem for such thin margins of error. But masters and below, it's still fine to defend with roaches if you're not feeling comfortable holding it any other way. You CAN counter it with a few early banes (a lot of players are starting to reverse the order of baneling nest and +1/+1) and/or a good amount of queens + a spine crawler and lings, but it's much harder. 2) Against proxy reaper, you just have to buy enough time for speed to finish. Once speed is finished, the reapers can't do any damage. In the meantime, try to lose as few drones and queens as possible. If you have to build a spine crawler, do it. Overall, I get the impression that you play on the slimmest of margins with minimal defense then wonder why you can't deal with things. Stop making your life difficult and invest in a few safety nets lol. 1.As the post before, I don't really know if it's worth doing the roaches and slowing down my tech and mutas. The positive thing about it is that you can bling roach/bust if you feel like it and you control the map a lot better with roaches out, so I don't really know. My friend who was grandmaster terran a while ago didn't think I should make roaches. I think I will try both making more queens/spines and making roaches as two different strategies. 2. I mean, the first reaper arrives before my pool is even finished. I have no time to make spines, speed or anything. I guess I have to make the spines as fast as I can but in the meantime I will loose like 5 drones still. Thanks for the help anyway. | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
After that game is usually even and u can resume a normal macro game. Against Marine Hellbat Medivac its a lot tougher especially at the GM level where i play, terrans do drop pickup micro and their marines have 15 kills each... | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On July 04 2014 00:17 NaboliC wrote: Alright two things, I'm done with this zvt vs hellbats. Lings just die in millions vs this imba unit and queens too. When I asked TLO in the chat why he didn't make roaches vs hellbats he told something about that you get stuck in a terrible composition when you did that. But what I can see, roaches is the only way to counter mass hellbat marines? The second thing is the unorthodoxly imba strategy of proxy reaper. He gets the first reaper before my pool is done and two or even four reapers when I have like one queen and four lings. This is impossible to win vs right? Micro is no problem since playing Wc3 for 10 years. I'm btw former master and probably high diamond right now. OK, I struggle vs. Terran something fierce but hellbats are not an issue for me. I can suggest two things that work for me (and I offer advice because if I can do it, you most certainly can do it even better.) 1. Make just a few roaches for the sole purpose of defending the hellbat drops. If needed, a spine and/or spore shuts that down in a hurry too. The spore snipes the medivac and that really delays future harass and hinders the current drop's mobility. If it's not drops that are an issue but mass hellbat... 2. Banes. Seems counter intuitive but banes wreck hellbats. They're too slow to get away and they're light armor. Banes deal with hellbats almost as well as they deal with marines (maybe even better since hellbats are so slow). As for the reapers... it's hard if you don't scout it but it's usually pretty easy to tell what's up when you get to their wall. If I can't scout it, I get a second queen, and micro the living hell out of my drones until I have a spine or more lings. After that, they're in a bad spot in my experience. Of course I'm not an expert. I lose to Terran a lot - but never to those strats. | ||
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EvilPumpkin
Brazil24 Posts
1) The inject method I used to use was the one where you bind all your Queens to the same control grup, press the hotkey for the inject and then click the hatcheries on the minimap. But from what I've seen, it seems to be "not recommended". I would like to ask why, and what are other inject methods you guys use/recommend for that matter. 2) I was trying to get into HyuN's 1/1 roach build, but thing is, what if the Terran defends and then go for mech (mainly like 8~ tanks and 2 or 3 Thors)? I've tried some weird transition to muta but it just didn't work out. Either by me being bad or the Thors slaughtering my mutas so so so hard. 3) Also, against Toss I have a very hard struggle with the end-game. When the game drags to about 20min~ or so they get the deathball and I can't seem to break that, even when I've got a huge lead in economy. I just can't seem to find a composition to fight against that (Stalker + Zealots + Colossi + Sentries + etc) and the same goes for when he goes skytoss. If they hit some point with the skillrays and stuff, it just seems impossible to beat (tried Hydras, Corruptors, Mutas, etc). Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just getting back into the game and need to catch up! <3 EDIT : The map you guys talked about for macro training is Creep or Die? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2014 09:46 EvilPumpkin wrote: After getting back from a break and trying out some stuff, I've got a couple more questions. 1) The inject method I used to use was the one where you bind all your Queens to the same control grup, press the hotkey for the inject and then click the hatcheries on the minimap. But from what I've seen, it seems to be "not recommended". I would like to ask why, and what are other inject methods you guys use/recommend for that matter. 2) I was trying to get into HyuN's 1/1 roach build, but thing is, what if the Terran defends and then go for mech (mainly like 8~ tanks and 2 or 3 Thors)? I've tried some weird transition to muta but it just didn't work out. Either by me being bad or the Thors slaughtering my mutas so so so hard. 3) Also, against Toss I have a very hard struggle with the end-game. When the game drags to about 20min~ or so they get the deathball and I can't seem to break that, even when I've got a huge lead in economy. I just can't seem to find a composition to fight against that (Stalker + Zealots + Colossi + Sentries + etc) and the same goes for when he goes skytoss. If they hit some point with the skillrays and stuff, it just seems impossible to beat (tried Hydras, Corruptors, Mutas, etc). Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just getting back into the game and need to catch up! <3 1) I think it probably works just as well as camera hotkeys. For me, personally, I like camera hotkeys because it forces me to check up on my bases while injecting while at the same time I never have any awkward hotkey problems or problems because there isn't a queen at a hatch. I'm sure there are ways to deal with it okay, but camera hotkeys just feel a lot more comfortable to me. 2) If you go for the 1-1 roach attack, you can either transition into roach/hydra/viper or muta/roach -> SH. If you can't do enough damage with the attack, then you really won't have the time to get extra bases and mutas and SH safely in time. If you do a lot of damage with the attack, then it really doesn't matter what you follow up with. So...I guess the only real answer is going into roach/hydra/viper. This is mainly because you commit so heavily to roaches that you HAVE to reset Terran's tech by a certain amount in order to catch up in your own tech. 3) I recently watched a soO game where his end game composition was infestor/queen/ultras with a handful of BLords later, and he completely shat all over Classic's VR/colossus/archon army of doom. Likewise, if you go the SH route, you have to just get like 20 corruptors + vipers and just slowly pick stuff off while continuing to cover the map in spores/spines. I hope this helps some! EDIT: The one I always recommend is something like "inject/creep spread" or vice versa. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 04 2014 08:42 NaboliC wrote: You probably can't help me anyway, then don't write. It sometimes work with all my 5-6 queens, one spine and mass lings/eventually blings. But without that it's not easy at all. The question is if i should go for roaches and delay my tech and mutas because of this or just make some more spines and some more queens maybe. 1.As the post before, I don't really know if it's worth doing the roaches and slowing down my tech and mutas. The positive thing about it is that you can bling roach/bust if you feel like it and you control the map a lot better with roaches out, so I don't really know. My friend who was grandmaster terran a while ago didn't think I should make roaches. I think I will try both making more queens/spines and making roaches as two different strategies. 2. I mean, the first reaper arrives before my pool is even finished. I have no time to make spines, speed or anything. I guess I have to make the spines as fast as I can but in the meantime I will loose like 5 drones still. Thanks for the help anyway. I'm about your level, used to be masters and am currently high diamond. And I played BW for a long time. Having a few roaches out, plus having the roach warren already done, helps a lot for me even when i play muta-ling-bane, and at this earlier time point (say, against the 2 medivac timing with 8-12 marines and 4 hellbats) the roaches are useful against marines, too. It also threatens 1-1 roach all-in if he doesn't see lings, and roach-bane if he does. Thus, it often forces tanks/mines and bunkers to defend, which kind of makes up for the gas cost of the roaches, as does the fast armory they built for the hellbats. And since you don't need both banes and roaches, the gas cost overall isn't terrible. In my experience, 8 roaches worth of gas is more effective at stopping these earlier hellbat attacks than 8 banes. If he's doing MASS hellbat (like 8 or more), I think roach kiting on creep is the only efficient way to beat it. Banes are just not efficient enough. Regarding proxy reaper, please watch this game, Nerchio vs Bunny (part of Madals' recent showmatch) on King Sejong Station: Very effective 15h 15p no gas defense of proxy reaper. Just have to keep pulling the weak drone after 2ish reaper shots. Eventually enough lings and queens are out and you can keep maneuvering to surround him with your units, wc3-style. Use overlords to watch entrances so you can pre-empt him, keep units on both sides of cliffs, and watch his rax to see when he cuts production and goes home. At the start, when your pool isn't even done, you can also send 5-6 drones to attack the reaper, and send the hurt ones back to mine. I forget if it is violet, hyun, or soulkey who does this, but it was a Korean zerg that I saw do this, and I use it against proxy reaper myself. This method keeps the reapers further from the mineral line, which reduces the chance that they can dart in and finish off hurt drones, but sacrifices mining time. | ||
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NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 04 2014 09:46 EvilPumpkin wrote: After getting back from a break and trying out some stuff, I've got a couple more questions. 1) The inject method I used to use was the one where you bind all your Queens to the same control grup, press the hotkey for the inject and then click the hatcheries on the minimap. But from what I've seen, it seems to be "not recommended". I would like to ask why, and what are other inject methods you guys use/recommend for that matter. 2) I was trying to get into HyuN's 1/1 roach build, but thing is, what if the Terran defends and then go for mech (mainly like 8~ tanks and 2 or 3 Thors)? I've tried some weird transition to muta but it just didn't work out. Either by me being bad or the Thors slaughtering my mutas so so so hard. 3) Also, against Toss I have a very hard struggle with the end-game. When the game drags to about 20min~ or so they get the deathball and I can't seem to break that, even when I've got a huge lead in economy. I just can't seem to find a composition to fight against that (Stalker + Zealots + Colossi + Sentries + etc) and the same goes for when he goes skytoss. If they hit some point with the skillrays and stuff, it just seems impossible to beat (tried Hydras, Corruptors, Mutas, etc). Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just getting back into the game and need to catch up! <3 EDIT : The map you guys talked about for macro training is Creep or Die? You've already gotten an excellent answer, but I want to expand on #2 with my experience as a roach/hydra ZvT player (i.e., I do a lot of 1-1 roach and 2-2 roach-hydra timings). If you fail to do serious damage, I would grab burrow and burrow movement immediately, take at least one expo, and get enough drones to saturate your current bases. Split your leftover roaches into two groups. Your goal is to harass with burrowed roaches and counterattacks to buy time while you try to get to high econ (10 gas, 90 drones), at which point you have the money to transition into SH/muta. If you get to that point, perfect. I would say that if you can make it out of the roach phase and he already has thors, go SH first, then add muta once your 10 gas econ kicks in. The actual harass play goes something like this: One group stays close to his front to watch for when he moves out, the other hidden to backstab (hidden group can be something like 4 roaches, if you don't have many). Most of the time, he will move out to try to punish your failed timing. Wait until he is one full siege distance away from his base before you force him to siege by feinting an attack with the front group, then backstab with the other group by running as far into his base as possible (no burrow needed at this point). If he goes home, attempt to snipe thors as he runs back (his tanks are faster and might leave the thors behind). Hide burrowed roaches in his base once he gets back. If he presses with the attack instead, think about if you can beat his army with one full wave of roach reinforcements plus your front group (he should be getting no reinforcements for a little while since you're camping his production); if yes, build and wait for that reinforcement wave, then burrow-move under the tanks and smash him (whether he scans or not, the healing helps a lot). If no, bypass him and send your front group to his base too, and trade bases (prioritize killing his factories), making sure to burrow any new roaches you build to get them out of your base safely. Once he is unable to build more units and can no longer scan, burrowed roach play will slowly grind him down. | ||
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EvilPumpkin
Brazil24 Posts
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Applesauce136
United States14 Posts
On July 04 2014 00:17 NaboliC wrote: The second thing is the unorthodoxly imba strategy of proxy reaper. He gets the first reaper before my pool is done and two or even four reapers when I have like one queen and four lings. This is impossible to win vs right? Micro is no problem since playing Wc3 for 10 years. I know that reapers generally take a lot of time to build, so if I see 4+ reapers I smile because once they're dead I can macro as hard as I want. | ||
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NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
On July 05 2014 21:55 Applesauce136 wrote: I know that reapers generally take a lot of time to build, so if I see 4+ reapers I smile because once they're dead I can macro as hard as I want. But then you also have to kill those four reapers, and you can't do that with one queen, as I might have if he proxys. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
Whats a solid opener ZvT vs gas first into reactor fact? I go 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 7:00-7:15 roach warren+evo... I go gasless 4 queen....... I'm getting way far behind to the 1 base pressure- whether its hellbat bio, hellbat drops, marine/mine drops. It just doesn't seem to matter what I do T.T;;; I build spine/spore and invest to heavy into units and they just dont attack. I try to punish a delayed expo and my stuff just seems to melt. Also, any kind of universal macro benchmarks would be appreciated. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On July 07 2014 17:18 Alchemik wrote: My only vetoes are Merry Go Round, due to ZvZ being kinda stupid there, and Foxtrot... well, that's just an anti-zerg map. You might want to veto Catallena, as it's very Protoss favored and as a Zerg it's really hard to defend there (and it's an ultimate sentry immortal all-in map). Also, Deathwing in horizontal spawn... good luck playing ZvT there. What's wrong with ZvZ on the map? My current vetoes are Merry Go Round, Catallena and Deadwing, but I could switch MGR over to Foxtrot if need be. | ||
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