EPT
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 179
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
I hotkey all hatches at "4" and all inject queens at "3". Is this the "right" way to do it? I mean do pros even hotkey the inject queens? | ||
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Kestnuts
United States29 Posts
On July 02 2014 07:54 Mozdk wrote: Another gold league Zerg question... I hotkey all hatches at "4" and all inject queens at "3". Is this the "right" way to do it? I mean do pros even hotkey the inject queens? It depends. Some pros do, some don't. Personally I do (not a pro, top 8 diamond scrub) but I'm still using the base camera inject method, which seems to have fallen out of use. Most pros that I watch seem to use camera hotkeys and box their queens. My opinion? Do whatever feels more comfortable to you. You'll most likely lose more ground trying to learn a new inject method than you'll gain even if the new method is more optimal. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 02 2014 08:14 Kestnuts wrote: It depends. Some pros do, some don't. Personally I do (not a pro, top 8 diamond scrub) but I'm still using the base camera inject method, which seems to have fallen out of use. Most pros that I watch seem to use camera hotkeys and box their queens. My opinion? Do whatever feels more comfortable to you. You'll most likely lose more ground trying to learn a new inject method than you'll gain even if the new method is more optimal. It depends on how you do injects. Typically, I only hotkey my queens that are spreading creep/defending. If I need to pull queens specifically to defend, I'll hotkey all the injecting queens as well. But I use camera hotkeys to inject. As always, I'm a proponent of this method, as it gets you into the habit of using camera hotkeys and checking on your bases. People who use the base camera key to inject usually have inject queens and creep spead/defending queens on separate hotkeys. | ||
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Kestnuts
United States29 Posts
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
What do I do if toss decides to get a 4th and 5th? Irealized in some maps that it's risky to use the SHs to deny bases because toss can suddenly leave his base and wreck your shop then recall back. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 02 2014 13:19 Reki wrote: What are good options in zvp when you go standard and scout p going fast 3rd and starting collo voidray? I usually fast tech to vipers and commit to 2/2 roach hydra as soon as i consume them to full energy. Once it stopped working I changed my play to fast tech to vipers, produce 16 swarmhost, then commit to 2/2 hydras. I'm not doing good these days and I'm not sure what are good long term goals of swarmhost compositions. Is the only main long term goal of SH to slowpush with static and vipers and hope you get a good engagement when the toss is forced to barrel in? What do I do if toss decides to get a 4th and 5th? Irealized in some maps that it's risky to use the SHs to deny bases because toss can suddenly leave his base and wreck your shop then recall back. Let me start by saying that if you're committing to SHs, you're setting up for the end game where you split the map already. Once you commit to 12+ SHs, you're on that path and there's nothing you can do about it. There are, of course, some builds that put roach/hydra aggression or muta/ling, or some combination of both before SHs. There are even a couple of ways to build ~8 SHs, put some pressure on, and then switch to mutas. But once you commit to ~12 or more SHs, you are committing all the way to the end game. The most common way to get into the SH transition is to 2/2 roach/hydra/corruptor (on 4 bases), trade for tech, then transition into infestor/queen/SH. In general, you really don't want more than ~8-10 hydras for your late game army, if any at all. From there, you tend to level out a bit, grab a 5th and 6th base, and head into viper/corruptor + mass static defense. If you'd prefer to avoid that stalemate, you can try the Jaedong composition that I do: do roach/hydra, roach/ling, or hydra/ling pressure -> infestors/hive tech -> vipers/corruptors/ultras. When you feel comfortable on 4-5 bases, morph ~6 BLs and do a bit doom push to trade. Meanwhile, you bank up a ton of gas, which you can then use for the muta remax and either end the game or base trade. This, overall, gives you a much more mobile army, keeps the pressure on the Protoss, and most of all let's you avoid that horrible SH end game. The only downside to this style is that you must keep the the pressure up and Protoss tech down because once tempests are out, BLords are useless; if you allow you're opponent to comfortably get on a colossus/VR/tempest composition, you have to take a step back and go into SHs. Good luck, I hope that gives some insight. | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 02 2014 15:51 Reki wrote: Thanks johnsc. That's the solution I was looking for. I have little to no split map experience so what does zerg want to happen when this goes down? How do you eventually end the game in a split map situation? Uhhhh, splitting the map :p. I don't really do the style much, so I'm not 100% positive on the specifics, but I believe you want around 30ish SHs plus a line of spores/spines down the center of the map + a plethora of spores/spines at each base. Basically, you want to have a gaggle of corruptor/viper flying around and yoinking out whatever units you can and picking them off. I suggest looking up Roro ZvPs on Sejong Station from Proleague. He does split map SH every time and he's only lost like twice on that map this season. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10689 Posts
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead.... SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol EDIT : I am at work so I can't post replays atm, but I will when I get home, aprox. a few hours....but a general idea....because I'm sure I am not the only one running into this... | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2014 12:20 GGzerG wrote: I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles. i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead.... SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol EDIT : I am at work so I can't post replays atm, but I will when I get home, aprox. a few hours....but a general idea....because I'm sure I am not the only one running into this... First of all, take a deep breath. Remind yourself that there are plenty of options in this game and ways to sidestep things that seem unstoppable. Most of the time, beating something is less about smashing your fist into your opponent's face by trying to just "play better" and more about "playing around" your opponent to throw him off balance. My best success is with muta/SH, which is, I think, the best way to deal with mech in the late game. The ultimate goal I'm shooting for is using the mutalisks for harassment/primary damage dealers while using mass creep spread and SHs to deny any frontal pushes. I also tend to expand very aggressively and throw down a handful of spores/spines in strategic areas. In my opinion, the best thing that you can do is just keep the Terran player from taking any bases, so...lots of burrow, lots of creep spread, overlord puking, positioning, etc. I work VERY hard to prevent the fourth for as long as possible. The key thing about ravens is that they get exponentially better with full energy, so you need to constantly keep them busy by forcing PDDs, baiting seeker missiles, and letting them use auto turrets to kill your aggressive expanding. Once the raven/viking ball gets big enough, you need 3-4 infestors hanging out for fungals. The job of the SH is to keep the mech army pinned back and keep the majority of your expansions safe. Either way, your goal is to just literally mine the map dry of gas, especially on your opponent's side of the map. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6ZhhiDe.png) The SH line keeps the mech army in check by threatening the lower bases while the mutalisks harass in the top half of the map and pick off vulnerable positions. Likewise, the mutas can harass the two lower bases while the SHs push the top lane. The aggressive expansions prevent expansions on the lower side of the map via creep as well as give you a gas advantage. I also incorporate an optional roach phase into my strategy which takes on two forms: 1) a big roach attack, when ahead, to reset the tank count and buy time for more bases/creep spread followed by mutli-pronged burrow roach harass, and 2) muta/roach play to take advantage of the thor/tank dilemma, and again, delay for more bases, more creep spread, etc. There are some clever roach/hydra/viper timings, but those are brute force timings that require perfect play and not losing anything in the early game. In general, it's better to just "play around" mech by simply starving them out and making sure they can't do anything significant. You don't have to break it, you can just weaken it until it collapses. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10689 Posts
On July 03 2014 13:34 SC2John wrote: First of all, take a deep breath. Remind yourself that there are plenty of options in this game and ways to sidestep things that seem unstoppable. Most of the time, beating something is less about smashing your fist into your opponent's face by trying to just "play better" and more about "playing around" your opponent to throw him off balance. My best success is with muta/SH, which is, I think, the best way to deal with mech in the late game. The ultimate goal I'm shooting for is using the mutalisks for harassment/primary damage dealers while using mass creep spread and SHs to deny any frontal pushes. I also tend to expand very aggressively and throw down a handful of spores/spines in strategic areas. In my opinion, the best thing that you can do is just keep the Terran player from taking any bases, so...lots of burrow, lots of creep spread, overlord puking, positioning, etc. I work VERY hard to prevent the fourth for as long as possible. The key thing about ravens is that they get exponentially better with full energy, so you need to constantly keep them busy by forcing PDDs, baiting seeker missiles, and letting them use auto turrets to kill your aggressive expanding. Once the raven/viking ball gets big enough, you need 3-4 infestors hanging out for fungals. The job of the SH is to keep the mech army pinned back and keep the majority of your expansions safe. Either way, your goal is to just literally mine the map dry of gas, especially on your opponent's side of the map. The SH line keeps the mech army in check by threatening the lower bases while the mutalisks harass in the top half of the map and pick off vulnerable positions. Likewise, the mutas can harass the two lower bases while the SHs push the top lane. The aggressive expansions prevent expansions on the lower side of the map via creep as well as give you a gas advantage. I also incorporate an optional roach phase into my strategy which takes on two forms: 1) a big roach attack, when ahead, to reset the tank count and buy time for more bases/creep spread followed by mutli-pronged burrow roach harass, and 2) muta/roach play to take advantage of the thor/tank dilemma, and again, delay for more bases, more creep spread, etc. There are some clever roach/hydra/viper timings, but those are brute force timings that require perfect play and not losing anything in the early game. In general, it's better to just "play around" mech by simply starving them out and making sure they can't do anything significant. You don't have to break it, you can just weaken it until it collapses. Ok so if what you are saying is true, than the only // and or the best option is to just sit and do nothing all game besides attempt to harass with mutas / deny bases with swarmhosts , which they will inevitably get eventually anyways, unless they have a huge blunder, and just sit / have map control and deny there harass / all ins / attacks / untill they are starved and the map is mined out so...the question is now... Spire or Infestation pit first? ... I'm guessing Spire, but in that case, you would have to open with ling bane + spines to stop the hellbat / bio attacks early game, or roach ling , into muta, then transition into swarm hosts? EDIT : Also THANK YOU for your quick response, I appreciate it really, this is the most frustrating thing i've ever played vs, and this is coming from someone who played BW for over 10 years and SC2 since beta....lol | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2014 14:05 GGzerG wrote: Ok so if what you are saying is true, than the only // and or the best option is to just sit and do nothing all game besides attempt to harass with mutas / deny bases with swarmhosts , which they will inevitably get eventually anyways, unless they have a huge blunder, and just sit / have map control and deny there harass / all ins / attacks / untill they are starved and the map is mined out so...the question is now... Spire or Infestation pit first? ... I'm guessing Spire, but in that case, you would have to open with ling bane + spines to stop the hellbat / bio attacks early game, or roach ling , into muta, then transition into swarm hosts? EDIT : Also THANK YOU for your quick response, I appreciate it really, this is the most frustrating thing i've ever played vs, and this is coming from someone who played BW for over 10 years and SC2 since beta....lol It's not the ONLY way, but I think it's the most flexible option. And it's far from being "sit on your ass and just try to harass some"...like, you should be very busy with harassment, counterattacks, positioning, expanding (very aggressively), etc., all game long. The power of mech is that it's very good for frontal engagements, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to engage it in a frontal engagement, right? As for spire vs infestation pit, I think 100% spire first. Aside from hellbat pressure, when you scout mech, you should have a roach warren for emergency defense anyway. If you go straight into SH, you completely give up map control for the entire game and allow the Terran player to expand way too quickly (and get 5 factories up and earlier SPs**). The best flow, in my experience, is roach defense -> roach aggression (optional) -> muta/ling or muta/roach harass and mass expanding -> SH defense. The use of the SH is purely to stop frontal pushes (or delay them long enough to get enough damage done with harass/get enough static defense + roaches to defend). Earlier in the game, the threat of a roach max or mutalisk harass will keep the mech player pinned back; therefore, you really want to delay SH for as long as possible and spend all of your money on mutas + hatcheries + static D. There are some people who will swear on weird infestor/ling mid games into hive rushes as well as people who just roach/hydra/viper all day. I'm not sure what is actually best, but this is the way I've seen specifically Soulkey and HyuN dismantle mech, and it seems to be the most reliable in professional play. Really, I think the key here is just being very "Zergy", taking the entire map, and covering it with creep, delaying your defense until it's absolutely necessary. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
And before you say you hold me back with mutas, mech is gas heavy not minerall heavy so I have the fattest turret ring you'll see with turret range uppgrade just so I don't have to think to much bout muta harrash. My push is usually stopped by a SH contain into mutas. SH makes it harder to push into the zerg base whilst roach/muta comp just makes me A move without much care. just scan where your roaches are and siege when you feel like they're to close and start with leap pushing. Opening SH forces me to get more raven so that I can waste 2 PDDs per jump I do to get closer to you WHICH also give you time to set up flanks/harrash/tech or w/e you want to do while I do my 1 hour slow push against your SH. Just some input from a dia mech T | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 03 2014 23:04 KonanTenshi wrote: I'm one of those terrans that sits back behind tanks, turrets, and all that junk in TvZ. Not sure if I suit the direct style you talk about but if I scout a 10+ mutas I just get 5 thors, a move my mech army and camps your third. And before you say you hold me back with mutas, mech is gas heavy not minerall heavy so I have the fattest turret ring you'll see with turret range uppgrade just so I don't have to think to much bout muta harrash. My push is usually stopped by a SH contain into mutas. SH makes it harder to push into the zerg base whilst roach/muta comp just makes me A move without much care. just scan where your roaches are and siege when you feel like they're to close and start with leap pushing. Opening SH forces me to get more raven so that I can waste 2 PDDs per jump I do to get closer to you WHICH also give you time to set up flanks/harrash/tech or w/e you want to do while I do my 1 hour slow push against your SH. Just some input from a dia mech T If you just skip a 4th base and push + turret ring, Zerg has already achieved their goal and can just use SHs or emergency roaches to hold off the push. Mass turret rings and early pushes is just shooting yourself in the foot as far as a long-term game plan goes. In my opinion, you probably just have a lot of success in catching Zerg players off guard moreso than opening SHs actually being better than mutas. | ||
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Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
On July 03 2014 23:21 Varroth wrote: I don't really put much effort into my games. Well. That might be it. | ||
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Kestnuts
United States29 Posts
On July 03 2014 23:11 SC2John wrote: If you just skip a 4th base and push + turret ring, Zerg has already achieved their goal and can just use SHs or emergency roaches to hold off the push. Mass turret rings and early pushes is just shooting yourself in the foot as far as a long-term game plan goes. In my opinion, you probably just have a lot of success in catching Zerg players off guard moreso than opening SHs actually being better than mutas. This. I cackle with glee when I catch a meching terran moving out like that, I can almost always just spam roaches and overwhelm his army, then go kill him instead of having to play out the long game. Of course, if I don't see it coming it's gg, but that's happening less and less as I get better at scouting. I feel like our terran friend will find his success rate plummeting as his MMR increases if he continues skipping his 4th and pushing out instead. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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