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On July 07 2014 17:38 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 17:18 Alchemik wrote:
My only vetoes are Merry Go Round, due to ZvZ being kinda stupid there, and Foxtrot... well, that's just an anti-zerg map. You might want to veto Catallena, as it's very Protoss favored and as a Zerg it's really hard to defend there (and it's an ultimate sentry immortal all-in map). Also, Deathwing in horizontal spawn... good luck playing ZvT there. What's wrong with ZvZ on the map? My current vetoes are Merry Go Round, Catallena and Deadwing, but I could switch MGR over to Foxtrot if need be.
Foxtrot is hard to wall off in ZvZ, you can't wall off the nat choke because it is too far away, and since blizzard is using an old version of the map the ZvZ/T wall-offs are not ideal, but you can still do things like this.
+ Show Spoiler +
The layout itself is also hard in general for zerg, but that varies from zerg to zerg, some love the complex pathways that foxtrot has because they can do an infinite amount of runbys and harass, meanwhile others dislike the map because it is hard to get surrounds and good engagements in the map.
inmo as the creator of the map and Z player? Foxtrot is hard to play as Zerg, but you can overcome the difficulties and take advantage of the other features the map has.
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It's not really "wrong" - it's just that I don't like the ramp on MGR, as I'm a primarly gasless player and it's somewhat hard to wall off there. Personal thing.
And about Foxtrot, I think you're kind of forced into opening roaches (sure, you can wall-off like a creator of the map just showed, I'd say it's just easier) in ZvT, which can be a plus for some people and minus for others.
Btw, if you wall-off like that, hellions can't just shoot through it and attack the workers like that? Since it's so close to the mineral line.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 07 2014 12:15 Joedaddy wrote:
someone plz save my keyboard and help me out a bit.......
Whats a solid opener ZvT vs gas first into reactor fact?
I go 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 7:00-7:15 roach warren+evo...
I go gasless 4 queen.......
I'm getting way far behind to the 1 base pressure- whether its hellbat bio, hellbat drops, marine/mine drops. It just doesn't seem to matter what I do T.T;;; I build spine/spore and invest to heavy into units and they just dont attack. I try to punish a delayed expo and my stuff just seems to melt.
Also, any kind of universal macro benchmarks would be appreciated.
It's hard to say since we haven't played against that in ages. If you're opening up gasless, just go six queens and get a spine crawler and you should be able to take a timely 3rd (~6:30) without too much interference from the hellions. If you're really having that much trouble, get a roach warren at 5:30 and make 4 roaches to push the hellions back; this is an ollllllddddd Stephano thing, and it works pretty okay versus these reactor hellion openings.
On July 07 2014 18:08 Alchemik wrote:
It's not really "wrong" - it's just that I don't like the ramp on MGR, as I'm a primarly gasless player and it's somewhat hard to wall off there. Personal thing.
And about Foxtrot, I think you're kind of forced into opening roaches (sure, you can wall-off like a creator of the map just showed, I'd say it's just easier) in ZvT, which can be a plus for some people and minus for others.
Btw, if you wall-off like that, hellions can't just shoot through it and attack the workers like that? Since it's so close to the mineral line.
Foxtrot is going to be a challenge for Zerg, but I think there's enough diversity in the terrain and multiple counterattack paths that you can easily make it work. Just make sure you're spreading creep like crazy up that middle ridge and spreading overlords around all the fringes and you should be okay.
In ZvZ, you'll be forced in ling/bane, not roaches. Opening roaches relies much much more heavily on walls while ling/bane is a more mobile composition (unless you're talking about on one base, which is...bad). I don't think there's any problem here except that in the top left/bottom right positions (I think that's right), you are kind of forced to take the gold as a third since the other one is fairly undefendable and destructible rocks block it early on.
For ZvT, you can just wall at the normal choke, no need to wall in your mineral line. 2 evos + 2 queens covers most of the spaces, and if it doesn't, you can just add a roach warren and/or a spine to help wall off. Luckily, the fair amount of chokes also make it quite easy to zone out the hellions with a spine crawler, a couple of queens, and lings.
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A few questions about ZvZ.
1. I'm not sure if people here are still familiar with Blade's SH/Ling/Bane/Muta composition but that's what I've been doing when I open Mutas and my opponent opens Roaches. The that I don't like is how immobile the SH are. I was wondering if I can just replace the SH for Roaches in that composition since they are definitely more mobile than SH, and can actually do more than SH after the locusts die to the Roach/Hydra ball of my opponent. So I would be going Roach/Bane/Ling/Muta and then transition into something like Ultra/Ling after the big engagement happens. I was wondering if that would work to substitute Blade's composition.
2. For a Zerg's 3rd, how many drones should be on minerals? I heard that it's best to leave it at 8 since that's all you need to keep producing off of 3 hatches. So essentially you aim to be on like 2.5 base saturation w/ 6 gases?
One question about ZvT:
1. What is the correct response to Hellbat pushes? I've tried to throw down a RW at like ~5:15 and then make like 3-4 Roaches when its finished to deal with any Hellions. If I see they are still producing Hellions for Hellbats, I make more Roaches. The problem with doing this is that it leaves me with a bad composition against drops or Banshees since I have no tech  I haven't tried Banes for defense but I feel like if Terran sees me using banes, then they can just use the Hellions to keep kiting the Banes and once thy're gone, then can just change them to Hellbats and kill all my Lings.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 08 2014 04:58 learning88 wrote:A few questions about ZvZ. 1. I'm not sure if people here are still familiar with Blade's SH/Ling/Bane/Muta composition but that's what I've been doing when I open Mutas and my opponent opens Roaches. The that I don't like is how immobile the SH are. I was wondering if I can just replace the SH for Roaches in that composition since they are definitely more mobile than SH, and can actually do more than SH after the locusts die to the Roach/Hydra ball of my opponent. So I would be going Roach/Bane/Ling/Muta and then transition into something like Ultra/Ling after the big engagement happens. I was wondering if that would work to substitute Blade's composition. 2. For a Zerg's 3rd, how many drones should be on minerals? I heard that it's best to leave it at 8 since that's all you need to keep producing off of 3 hatches. So essentially you aim to be on like 2.5 base saturation w/ 6 gases? One question about ZvT: 1. What is the correct response to Hellbat pushes? I've tried to throw down a RW at like ~5:15 and then make like 3-4 Roaches when its finished to deal with any Hellions. If I see they are still producing Hellions for Hellbats, I make more Roaches. The problem with doing this is that it leaves me with a bad composition against drops or Banshees since I have no tech I haven't tried Banes for defense but I feel like if Terran sees me using banes, then they can just use the Hellions to keep kiting the Banes and once thy're gone, then can just change them to Hellbats and kill all my Lings.
1. SH and roaches are always interchangeable! They cost about the same, cost ratio wise (75/25 vs 200/100). They are mineral heavy, gas cheap, supply heavy, and they basically serve the same function: tanky units to soak up damage and slow down pushes. The biggest difference is, as you say, immobility. So yeah, mutas -> roaches is pretty common and, in fact, a lot more common than mutas -> SHs. The mutas basically serve the purpose of giving you map control and a potentially better economy, then you catch up in the roach count to match your opponent's (but with a better economy). Generally once you get on the roach train, though, you have to transition either through hydras or infestors to hive tech or else you'll just die to big lair tech attacks from your opponent.
2. For the 3rd base, it's generally between 8-12 (with only 4-5 gases) until you have a chance to transition out of roaches. In general, though, you definitely want to stay in the 60-65ish drones range, very low (compared to other matchups).
In ZvT, there is no simple solution for "how do I deal with hellbats?" other than just going roach/hydra every game. The first thing you absolutely need to do is identify 2-base pressure vs. 3-base pressure (AKA the presence of an early 3rd CC around 6:00). 2-base pressure hits about a minute or two earlier and forces you to deviate fairly strongly to deflect it while 3-base attacks can be held decently as long as you're not being too greedy. Many pros have been dealing with hellbat pressure by just rearranging the baneling nest and evo chambers so that they can morph in banelings to defend if necessary (~8:00+); it's important to note that they do not morph banelings BEFORE the hellions transform and otherwise just zone them out with lings/queens/spines. I think you'll be fine if you just keep doing what you're doing, but don't make any more than 4-8 roaches and just make 1-2 more spine crawlers instead.
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How many banes does it take to kill a planetary?
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Also:
Vs bio I go ling, bane, muta. With Upgrades to lings and mutas. After a while I throw in some ultras. Then they go marauders. So what exactly do I make to deal with that. I mean in the ultra lategame, what am I suppossed to make to deal with rines, maruders, medivacs with like 8 ravens thrown in.
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I don't have that much experience with late game ZvT, did you try infestors tho?
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On July 08 2014 17:04 Mozdk wrote:
Also:
Vs bio I go ling, bane, muta. With Upgrades to lings and mutas. After a while I throw in some ultras. Then they go marauders. So what exactly do I make to deal with that. I mean in the ultra lategame, what am I suppossed to make to deal with rines, maruders, medivacs with like 8 ravens thrown in.
You're supposed to keep a very healthy muta flock during the game. At least that's how it is done most often. It punishes compositions that are too low on marines + general mutalisk cancer.
And as the poster above suggested keeping a LOW number of infestor is always worth it if you have the money.
About Foxtrot: How can a zerg not veto that map? It's choke: the map. Borderline unplayable given same level of skill.
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Alchemik and Karpfen
I did not make infestors. I was swimming in money and so was he. In the particular game we played 48 min and as I've studied the replay, I see we were very even in army the whole game. I had plenty of mutas, but I should have been a lot more active with them, when he was passive. Could have picked up planetary on several occasions. I had over 20 mutas with +3 att. Should be plenty to f' up 4 turrets.
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On July 08 2014 20:44 Mozdk wrote:
Alchemik and Karpfen
I did not make infestors. I was swimming in money and so was he. In the particular game we played 48 min and as I've studied the replay, I see we were very even in army the whole game. I had plenty of mutas, but I should have been a lot more active with them, when he was passive. Could have picked up planetary on several occasions. I had over 20 mutas with +3 att. Should be plenty to f' up 4 turrets.
Have no fear of going up to 30-35 mutas while staying back with your other forces. He still cannot take cost effective fight vs you on creep if you go mass bane + ultra. If he defends just keep harrassing and take bases everywhere.
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Hello diamond level zerg here looking to get to masters. http://drop.sc/384122 <-- Could someone give me some pointers, I feel I reactly well and saw hOpe play a similar style and get 6 queens before a third.
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I think I need serious help.
I'm a diamond zerg player and i really struggle against protoss. Is there a way that I can improve myself agaisnt protoss? Because most of the times I even don't understand the reason why I lost.
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Umuryum, a lot of players struggle with scouting versus Protoss. Maybe that's the problem?
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On July 09 2014 09:11 Alchemik wrote:
Umuryum, a lot of players struggle with scouting versus Protoss. Maybe that's the problem?
Hey Alchemik,
When I don't / can't scout my opponnent, i count that as a reason of loss.
But when there is a 7-gate robo all in, I never have enough units, or I can't get a good engagement with roaches and lings.
I tried burrow movement and they have an observer with the army.
I think that I do not know when to drone or not hence my army supply is not near required value.
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When does it hit? Sorry, maybe I've never face it.
With roach ling, you don't want too drone to hard. It's not the most expensive of defenses resources-wise, but it sure is expensive larvae-wise. With ling hydra, you want to have a bit more drones, etc, etc. With roach ling, it's probably ok to have around 45 drones when he hits with that all-in.
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On July 09 2014 10:08 Alchemik wrote:
When does it hit? Sorry, maybe I've never face it.
With roach ling, you don't want too drone to hard. It's not the most expensive of defenses resources-wise, but it sure is expensive larvae-wise. With ling hydra, you want to have a bit more drones, etc, etc. With roach ling, it's probably ok to have around 45 drones when he hits with that all-in.
Well there is no exact builds with the immortals for me to lose.
It unfortunately doesnt matter if its 11:00 all in with 2 immortals, or delayed with 3/4.
I'm desperate for something other than roach/ling.
Is there something like that?
Maybe Hydra/ling?
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If it hits at 11, then heeeell, go for ling hydra. It shuts down a lot of all-ins hard, like sentry/immortal. I go for it every game (unless fast all-in, in which my hydras won't be out yet, then I go for roach ling). But if it's such a late attack off of two bases, you can drone up to 50-55 probably and simply be able to outproduce Protoss.
I don't think I've ever faced that kind of an all-in tho, so it probably would be better if someone else would say something.
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So I tried again to ladder because I love to make myself depressed and I tried to take your guys advise. Started the season 0-8 so far. I cant even win in fucking gold league. I try to go macro too often, and I can't scout worth a fuck. My macro's bad and I have no game sense.
Sorry to rant on here. I know this is not the place. My game just needs a lot of help, that's all. And I kind of have a shit attitude about it all. Sorry
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I'm back with some more ZvZ questions. I've decided to give up opening Mutas because I keep getting my 3rd sniped by Roaches. Then it's just a slow death for me When opening roaches:
1. When do I start my RW?
I was thinking of starting it after a Baneling Nest (I play pretty safe so I usually get a BN before teching to Lair) but I'm not sure if maybe I should start it earlier and use Roaches for ling all-in defense.
2. When do I get my Lair?
When I opened Mutas, I would usually start my Lair once I get 100 gas after I started ling speed and baneling nest. When opening Roaches, I don't know whether I should go with Lair first or maybe range attack first.
3. How should I take my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gases?
4. When do I go for my 3rd?
If you guys can, can you link me to a game that I can watch that is just a straight up standard Roach opening from both players that played pretty passive? I want to see how my gameplan should look if I was left alone to macro so I can adjust accordingly to attacks and stuff. Thanks for all the help so far!!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cK6VNPY.jpg)
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