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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On April 05 2013 08:38 Kezzer wrote:
Hey guys I am having MAJOR troubles in TvT (I have a 14% win rating). I don't like going tanks, as I hate tank line stalemates. Is there any way to play a more active TvT? I do like siege tanks its just sitting for 45+ minute games with either player too scared to engage is so boring and I would love to actually play the game more in TvT. I end up getting impatient and moving forward and losing everything. How should I change my TvT to be more active with tanks (or other units?).
Like others have mentioned 1/1/1 on 1 base with tanks can be an aggressive way to approach TvT. Personally I like cloak banshee opening sending one or two banshees to do some harass followed by marine/tank/viking/banshee (don't let them die!) with scvs allin. But you can still contain and expand behind it (just be wary of drops) and force a quicker game that way.
I don't recommend going gas first banshee anymore though because of reapers so I just go 12 rax, 13 gas instead  like you I can't stand the slow chess like style of mid-late game TvT so I play it like this.
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I'm having problems holding off early pressure (specifically 4gate / 6pool) using the 13gas reaper build (into FE -> Marine / Medivac, also have to build the 2nd supply depot ASAP, so can't walloff with the 2nd SD).
I'm silver league and keep getting crushed by the 4gate / 6pool. I wonder if I should try to be aggressive with the reaper to counter it, I have tried this before but when I'm trying to be aggressive with the reaper, I end messing up my macro a lot (which really impacts later on).
Anyway - How do I deal with 4gate / 6pools early on using the 13gas reaper build?
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On April 05 2013 15:14 govie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 08:38 Kezzer wrote:
Hey guys I am having MAJOR troubles in TvT (I have a 14% win rating). I don't like going tanks, as I hate tank line stalemates. Is there any way to play a more active TvT? I do like siege tanks its just sitting for 45+ minute games with either player too scared to engage is so boring and I would love to actually play the game more in TvT. I end up getting impatient and moving forward and losing everything. How should I change my TvT to be more active with tanks (or other units?). Just hit him around the 8/9 minute mark with a descent 1base push (no drop) (1/1/1 or 2/1/1 etc). A 8/9 minute push of 1 base will punish any early expanding T or P player (mech players need gas so they will mostly expand early). Be sure your pushing early enough to punish him and to mix 1 raven in the composition against T with a couple of scv's on repair.
I've tried going 1base 2/1/1 in TvP but get massacred by oracles even if they have expanded. I have thought about getting widow mines but I like to keep my tank production constant as they take ages off 1 factory to get decent numbers. I guess it couldn't harm to make 2 mines before TL to defend the mineral line whilst I push out. How have you dealt with oracles in this scenario? I find them more scary than the planetary nexus!
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On April 05 2013 20:39 Diabolical wrote:
I'm having problems holding off early pressure (specifically 4gate / 6pool) using the 13gas reaper build (into FE -> Marine / Medivac, also have to build the 2nd supply depot ASAP, so can't walloff with the 2nd SD).
I'm silver league and keep getting crushed by the 4gate / 6pool. I wonder if I should try to be aggressive with the reaper to counter it, I have tried this before but when I'm trying to be aggressive with the reaper, I end messing up my macro a lot (which really impacts later on).
Anyway - How do I deal with 4gate / 6pools early on using the 13gas reaper build?
iirc 6 pool hits before the first reaper comes out, and 4 gate is much later, so they are two situations that are kind of difficult to compare. But that's fine.
A solid 4 gate all-in hits between 5:50 and 6:05. This means that you should already have your FE up with maybe 2 or 3 scvs and a mule. Always make a bunker at your natural, regardless of the map, vs Protoss, because MSC-stalker pressure can be very damaging, as well as 4 gate. Throwing a bunker down as soon as your expansion is up shuts down a lot of potential aggression from the Protoss early-game wise. In addition, since you decided to open reaper, in theory you should have been able to scout the incoming 4 gate, so your bunker should not only be ready, but have some scvs surrounding it for repairs.
For the 6 pool, I don't see the inconvenience. 13 gas reaper build is the build where you get 1 marine out before the reaper, unlike the 12 gas reaper first build (as seen a lot on Demuslim's stream). So that 1 marine should be around half way done when the zerglings arrive. 13 gas reaper build also allows a complete wall-off before the 2nd CC iirc, so as long as you remember to build your second depot on time, and react quickly enough with scvs to go repair the depots being attacked by the lings, and wait for the first marine to pop out, you should really be fine.
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On April 05 2013 20:44 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:14 govie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 08:38 Kezzer wrote:
Hey guys I am having MAJOR troubles in TvT (I have a 14% win rating). I don't like going tanks, as I hate tank line stalemates. Is there any way to play a more active TvT? I do like siege tanks its just sitting for 45+ minute games with either player too scared to engage is so boring and I would love to actually play the game more in TvT. I end up getting impatient and moving forward and losing everything. How should I change my TvT to be more active with tanks (or other units?). Just hit him around the 8/9 minute mark with a descent 1base push (no drop) (1/1/1 or 2/1/1 etc). A 8/9 minute push of 1 base will punish any early expanding T or P player (mech players need gas so they will mostly expand early). Be sure your pushing early enough to punish him and to mix 1 raven in the composition against T with a couple of scv's on repair. I've tried going 1base 2/1/1 in TvP but get massacred by oracles even if they have expanded. I have thought about getting widow mines but I like to keep my tank production constant as they take ages off 1 factory to get decent numbers. I guess it couldn't harm to make 2 mines before TL to defend the mineral line whilst I push out. How have you dealt with oracles in this scenario? I find them more scary than the planetary nexus!
Well, against P it is harder because of planetary nexus but still doable if timed correctly and have the correct unit composition.
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On April 05 2013 20:56 sorrowptoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 20:39 Diabolical wrote:
I'm having problems holding off early pressure (specifically 4gate / 6pool) using the 13gas reaper build (into FE -> Marine / Medivac, also have to build the 2nd supply depot ASAP, so can't walloff with the 2nd SD).
I'm silver league and keep getting crushed by the 4gate / 6pool. I wonder if I should try to be aggressive with the reaper to counter it, I have tried this before but when I'm trying to be aggressive with the reaper, I end messing up my macro a lot (which really impacts later on).
Anyway - How do I deal with 4gate / 6pools early on using the 13gas reaper build? iirc 6 pool hits before the first reaper comes out, and 4 gate is much later, so they are two situations that are kind of difficult to compare. But that's fine. A solid 4 gate all-in hits between 5:50 and 6:05. This means that you should already have your FE up with maybe 2 or 3 scvs and a mule. Always make a bunker at your natural, regardless of the map, vs Protoss, because MSC-stalker pressure can be very damaging, as well as 4 gate. Throwing a bunker down as soon as your expansion is up shuts down a lot of potential aggression from the Protoss early-game wise. In addition, since you decided to open reaper, in theory you should have been able to scout the incoming 4 gate, so your bunker should not only be ready, but have some scvs surrounding it for repairs. For the 6 pool, I don't see the inconvenience. 13 gas reaper build is the build where you get 1 marine out before the reaper, unlike the 12 gas reaper first build (as seen a lot on Demuslim's stream). So that 1 marine should be around half way done when the zerglings arrive. 13 gas reaper build also allows a complete wall-off before the 2nd CC iirc, so as long as you remember to build your second depot on time, and react quickly enough with scvs to go repair the depots being attacked by the lings, and wait for the first marine to pop out, you should really be fine.
Can't believe I didn't think of the bunker, derp. Tyty!
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On April 05 2013 21:10 Diabolical wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 20:56 sorrowptoss wrote:On April 05 2013 20:39 Diabolical wrote:
I'm having problems holding off early pressure (specifically 4gate / 6pool) using the 13gas reaper build (into FE -> Marine / Medivac, also have to build the 2nd supply depot ASAP, so can't walloff with the 2nd SD).
I'm silver league and keep getting crushed by the 4gate / 6pool. I wonder if I should try to be aggressive with the reaper to counter it, I have tried this before but when I'm trying to be aggressive with the reaper, I end messing up my macro a lot (which really impacts later on).
Anyway - How do I deal with 4gate / 6pools early on using the 13gas reaper build? iirc 6 pool hits before the first reaper comes out, and 4 gate is much later, so they are two situations that are kind of difficult to compare. But that's fine. A solid 4 gate all-in hits between 5:50 and 6:05. This means that you should already have your FE up with maybe 2 or 3 scvs and a mule. Always make a bunker at your natural, regardless of the map, vs Protoss, because MSC-stalker pressure can be very damaging, as well as 4 gate. Throwing a bunker down as soon as your expansion is up shuts down a lot of potential aggression from the Protoss early-game wise. In addition, since you decided to open reaper, in theory you should have been able to scout the incoming 4 gate, so your bunker should not only be ready, but have some scvs surrounding it for repairs. For the 6 pool, I don't see the inconvenience. 13 gas reaper build is the build where you get 1 marine out before the reaper, unlike the 12 gas reaper first build (as seen a lot on Demuslim's stream). So that 1 marine should be around half way done when the zerglings arrive. 13 gas reaper build also allows a complete wall-off before the 2nd CC iirc, so as long as you remember to build your second depot on time, and react quickly enough with scvs to go repair the depots being attacked by the lings, and wait for the first marine to pop out, you should really be fine. Can't believe I didn't think of the bunker, derp. Tyty!
More over, if you know what to look for with your scouting scv, it can make your life much easier.
There are probably more detailed explanations on the forum, but basically if you scout 1 gaz (or 2), a lot of chronoboost saved up and only 2 pylons, it can mean 4gates (or proxy).
If you scout 1 gaz only it must be a 4 gate.
If you scout 3 pylons, it can't be something that hits that early.
Also, don't forget that most of the time (against any gateway type push) the key is to have time to pull your scvs and surround your bunker(s).
Usually, a single scv patrolling in front of your bunkers can save you the game. Especially if you are in a lower league, your reaction time should not be that great.
Gl hf
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Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:42 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene
I think it's because there is a small window you can hit before HT's have storm, and it is more favorable to end the game right there and then? I recall MVP doing it quite consistently just before WoL ended.
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On April 06 2013 01:42 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene
Protoss is fairly weak vs Terran if their splash dmg is countered and with certain timings (mostly sg expand builds into robo with double upgrades) there will only colossi as a source of splash dmg, which can be countered hardcore by a big enough viking fleet and just an overwhelming amount of stuff on the ground (5 or 6 rax worth of bio + scvs, or even bio/hellbat + scvs)with scvs to tank the first colossi volleys, while vikings kill them, leaving only gateway units vs bio + medivacs, which favors the Terran.
Storm on the other hand counters these kind of pushes, because storm doesnt only hit the tanking scvs, but also the bio behind it.
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I've been having trouble with TvZ and have been trying out Biomine and MMM+hellbat with mixed results. I was wondering if there was any reason to favor on of these comps over the other, because it feels like widow mines don't connect as well as they should for me.
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If I open up with a standard reaper in TvP what is a good time to aim for to suicide in my reaper for scouting information? Right now it always feels like I'm just a hair late.
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On April 06 2013 01:42 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene
collosi -> storm transition takes awhile (when they are taking their 3rd), assuming you hit before storm (which would mean you bringing your scvs is kinda... useless, cause they die to storm just as well)
and if you have enough vikings you kill the collosi quickly, and then they have no aoe, so then the bio kills the protoss army
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I'm having a hard time lately against meching players tvt. I almost always get an advantage early when it's just hellions + a few tanks, but just can't seem to kill them. I usually go 1 rax expo into 3 rax, if I see mech I go double techlab single reactor. I guess my main question is when should I be switching to an air composition, and how many starports should I use? and secondly, are tanks necessary? In WoL I would go tankless against mech as bio had plenty mobility and firepower to deal with hellions, hellbats however are much more difficult to deal with when supported by tanks. Can pure bio/air answer mech or do you need at least some tank support?
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I can't win vs Protoss. The amount of all-ins they have just makes it impossible for me to expand aggressively the way I used to in WoL. Does anyone have safe macro openers that don't put you behind economically and are safe vs. bs oracle all-ins and stuff like that?
top 25 master btw.
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On April 06 2013 06:20 SlixSC wrote:
I can't win vs Protoss. The amount of all-ins they have just makes it impossible for me to expand aggressively the way I used to in WoL. Does anyone have safe macro openers that don't put you behind economically and are safe vs. bs oracle all-ins and stuff like that?
top 25 master btw.
Did you catch GSL yesterday? Bomber was opening reaper every game into macro play. The reaper gave him a really good idea of what Creator was going to do for a good portion of the early game. Also, if P goes nex first then you can even get a few probe kills.
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On April 06 2013 02:09 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 01:42 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene I think it's because there is a small window you can hit before HT's have storm, and it is more favorable to end the game right there and then? I recall MVP doing it quite consistently just before WoL ended.
Pretty much MVP decides I can kill you know before you get storm because once storm is out the late game is Protoss favored because they can relax quicker with the way warp ins work.
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What should I do if I get an early lead in TvZ? I'm intrested in punishing builds because I don't have problems with "getting more ahead" and I would like to know if I have any aggressive options. What should I do if my proxy 2 rax is succesful and he cancels/loses his natural? What can I do if he early pools and i defend my ramp without any problems? What can I do if I kill a lot of drones with 2 base blue flame hellion push? And my last question: is marauder hellion all-in still viable?
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On April 06 2013 04:10 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 01:42 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone give me a quick rundown on why it seems Terran in the GSL favor a complete SCV pull once the Protoss secures a third base? I don't know if it is because a fear of battling late-game Protoss or because they feel that is the optimal timing window to end the game by pressing their advantage of containing the Toss on 2bases for so long with Medivacs.
It isn't a style I've seen very much in the NA scene collosi -> storm transition takes awhile (when they are taking their 3rd), assuming you hit before storm (which would mean you bringing your scvs is kinda... useless, cause they die to storm just as well) and if you have enough vikings you kill the collosi quickly, and then they have no aoe, so then the bio kills the protoss army
Spot on. Here's an example. Crap game I should have lost, but due to the SCV pull, and hitting before storm finishes and having vikings in a keyspot to snipe vikings, I get the win.
http://drop.sc/318284
Pretty much MVP decides I can kill you know before you get storm because once storm is out the late game is Protoss favored because they can relax quicker with the way warp ins work.
Because protoss is weak at this point. They cut collsai, and are taking third, or have third just getting going. They are getting charge (or have it) and probably 2/2 or 3/3 going. Along with making the archives, and then mass chronoing on storm upgrade, and making HT to have the energy ready when storm is done. There's a huge gas sink, and very noticeable time if you scout it well to pull all scvs. Wastes zealots charge on SCVs, as your bio can do their shit behind.
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On April 06 2013 06:20 SlixSC wrote:
I can't win vs Protoss. The amount of all-ins they have just makes it impossible for me to expand aggressively the way I used to in WoL. Does anyone have safe macro openers that don't put you behind economically and are safe vs. bs oracle all-ins and stuff like that?
top 25 master btw.
If you're still doing 1rax gasless FE, you should stop and instead either go 13 gas reaper first or 15 gas reactor expand into widow mines. The OP explains it better, but basically Oracles make 1rax FE obsolete.
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EPT
