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In TvP, are hellbats an option in combination with the usual MMM+viking/ghost?
Especially against a high number of charge zealots, their splash and relatively high HP seems almost too good to leave out.
They could also be included in drops, but I think a good protoss can just run away with his probes before you get any, and they would definitely not kill buildings like marauders could.
On the other hand, the army would lose a lot of its ability to kite/retreat as hellbats are considerably slower than stimmed marine/marauder. Hellbats are also weaker than the rest of the Terran army vs everything but zealots and maybe templar.
The trade-off would be fewer marines, since hellbats only cost minerals, so our medivac/ghost/viking count should not suffer much.
One spot where including hellbats could be good is in a situation where Protoss chooses to stay on 2 bases for a long time and tries to kill you with a charge (and maybe 2/0/2) timing while Terran is on 3 base.
Any thoughts on this?
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On April 06 2013 08:38 BaaL` wrote:
In TvP, are hellbats an option in combination with the usual MMM+viking/ghost?
Especially against a high number of charge zealots, their splash and relatively high HP seems almost too good to leave out.
They could also be included in drops, but I think a good protoss can just run away with his probes before you get any, and they would definitely not kill buildings like marauders could.
On the other hand, the army would lose a lot of its ability to kite/retreat as hellbats are considerably slower than stimmed marine/marauder. Hellbats are also weaker than the rest of the Terran army vs everything but zealots and maybe templar.
The trade-off would be fewer marines, since hellbats only cost minerals, so our medivac/ghost/viking count should not suffer much.
One spot where including hellbats could be good is in a situation where Protoss chooses to stay on 2 bases for a long time and tries to kill you with a charge (and maybe 2/0/2) timing while Terran is on 3 base.
Any thoughts on this?
yes it can work well, in gstl yesterday ryung used the composition to great effect, and heromarine was having great success with it at eset uk masters.
I dont think kiting is quite so important with this composition, you kite so your bio can be cost efficient against zealot heavy compositions but with the inclusion of hellbats your army composition is already very cost efficient versus zealot heavy protoss armies.
also with hellbat drops you dont boost in, you fly in normally, then when he runs his probes you load up and boost on top of them, as they stack when they transfer if you pull this off correctly you can often do game-winning damage with just one single hellbat drop
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On April 06 2013 08:41 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 08:38 BaaL` wrote:
In TvP, are hellbats an option in combination with the usual MMM+viking/ghost?
Especially against a high number of charge zealots, their splash and relatively high HP seems almost too good to leave out.
They could also be included in drops, but I think a good protoss can just run away with his probes before you get any, and they would definitely not kill buildings like marauders could.
On the other hand, the army would lose a lot of its ability to kite/retreat as hellbats are considerably slower than stimmed marine/marauder. Hellbats are also weaker than the rest of the Terran army vs everything but zealots and maybe templar.
The trade-off would be fewer marines, since hellbats only cost minerals, so our medivac/ghost/viking count should not suffer much.
One spot where including hellbats could be good is in a situation where Protoss chooses to stay on 2 bases for a long time and tries to kill you with a charge (and maybe 2/0/2) timing while Terran is on 3 base.
Any thoughts on this? yes it can work well, in gstl yesterday ryung used the composition to great effect, and heromarine was having great success with it at eset uk masters. I dont think kiting is quite so important with this composition, you kite so your bio can be cost efficient against zealot heavy compositions but with the inclusion of hellbats your army composition is already very cost efficient versus zealot heavy protoss armies. also with hellbat drops you dont boost in, you fly in normally, then when he runs his probes you load up and boost on top of them, as they stack when they transfer if you pull this off correctly you can often do game-winning damage with just one single hellbat drop
Hmm yes picking up the hellbats again if he does pull the probes is a good and standard move indeed, but it does make it more likely you will lose the drop to stalkers. Also the MSC overcharge --> target medivac would make picking up and boosting in almost guarantee the death of your units. After you have shown hellbats I suppose the protoss should spread his probes as much as possible while targeting the medivac with any defense he might have.
However, the 2 hellbats + medivac are only 300/100 total, as opposed to bio drops that are 500/100 or more assuming you use a full medivac. But as you said, you can wipe out an entire base full of probes before anything even has time to warp in. High risk, high reward.
The micro would just be different I guess, the zealots should melt quickly and then there's not much reason to kite at all (marines having 5 range vs stalkers etc, it's either fight or run).
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With reaper expands getting more popular, how important is the scv scout in all matchups? Particularly standard reaper 12 rax/12 gas.
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On April 06 2013 09:03 halpimcat wrote:
With reaper expands getting more popular, how important is the scv scout in all matchups? Particularly standard reaper 12 rax/12 gas.
With 12rax/12gas I don't think you need to scout anything, except maybe TvT.
In TvZ, there's nothing Zerg can do before you scout with the reaper really, beside 6pool but that should be no problem to hold. The only intel you can get with an SCV before that is if its hatch first or pool first and with/without gas, but the only reason you would ever need that info is if you want to CC first and need to pick low ground vs high ground.
TvP I never play 12/12, but I imagine the reaper is easily in time to spot everything? Of course if the probe hangs around in your base you might want to check for in-base pylons.
TvT there is one build that might do considerable damage if you don't scout it before the reaper: proxy marauders. That build is tailored to fight against reapers, but even if you don't scout it, I think its possible to hold with scv pull + marines + bunker. Just don't be greedy, and place the bunker close to your CC and not at the ramp or even on low ground (situational ofc). 2 reapers is weak anyway I think, but if you somehow don't see anything and suddenly 2 marauders show up and you got 2 reapers, I think you're dead :p but that should not happen.
Overall the reaper is IMO early enough that a scout SCV is not even close to worth it. The mining you lose is really nothing to ignore! By the time you scout, you might very well have lost 50 minerals that could have bought you a marine, and then you can just hold the cheesy plays even if you didn't see them coming (just an illustration, you would need time on barracks etc).
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Mechanics question:
I don't understand why pros go through their keys so fast. Is the goal to complete their macro cycle as fast as possible? Or just keep your hands warmed up? Isn't it distracting to constantly have your hands moving at 250+ APM while doing nothing (if you're not dropping, going through army movements).
If the goal IS to rapidly perform the macro cycles, what advantage is there of doing it faster? Units don't build any faster and you can just quickly tap once to go back to your production from your army.
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How to deal with the 1 base hellbat drop with 2 medivacs+4 hellbats that hits around 8:00 when opening 15 gas->hellion drop?
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On April 06 2013 10:04 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 09:03 halpimcat wrote:
With reaper expands getting more popular, how important is the scv scout in all matchups? Particularly standard reaper 12 rax/12 gas. With 12rax/12gas I don't think you need to scout anything, except maybe TvT. In TvZ, there's nothing Zerg can do before you scout with the reaper really, beside 6pool but that should be no problem to hold. The only intel you can get with an SCV before that is if its hatch first or pool first and with/without gas, but the only reason you would ever need that info is if you want to CC first and need to pick low ground vs high ground. TvP I never play 12/12, but I imagine the reaper is easily in time to spot everything? Of course if the probe hangs around in your base you might want to check for in-base pylons. TvT there is one build that might do considerable damage if you don't scout it before the reaper: proxy marauders. That build is tailored to fight against reapers, but even if you don't scout it, I think its possible to hold with scv pull + marines + bunker. Just don't be greedy, and place the bunker close to your CC and not at the ramp or even on low ground (situational ofc). 2 reapers is weak anyway I think, but if you somehow don't see anything and suddenly 2 marauders show up and you got 2 reapers, I think you're dead :p but that should not happen. Overall the reaper is IMO early enough that a scout SCV is not even close to worth it. The mining you lose is really nothing to ignore! By the time you scout, you might very well have lost 50 minerals that could have bought you a marine, and then you can just hold the cheesy plays even if you didn't see them coming (just an illustration, you would need time on barracks etc).
I still SCV scout after rax and follow it up with a reaper in TvP. This way I'm able to get the gas and pylon count with my SCV, which in turn tells me if a proxy is a possibility or not, and I have time to move around the map with my reaper and possibly deny proxies with it if necessary or go straight to my opponent's base to see his follow up if not.
That being said, with 12/13 into reaper you should get all the information you need to tell if a proxy build is coming, you just probably wont be able to deny it in time unless you're out on the map with your first marine (which I find risky with the prevalence of Zealot / Stalker / MsC pressure).
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How on Earth is it possible to do Medivac drops against a good Zerg who watches the minimap, has good creep spread, has overlords over all drop paths with no ground under them, and 6+ air mutas or corruptors? They see everything ages in advance and kill any viking the Terran send overlord hunting.
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On April 06 2013 16:40 Empirimancer wrote:
How on Earth is it possible to do Medivac drops against a good Zerg who watches the minimap, has good creep spread, has overlords over all drop paths with no ground under them, and 6+ air mutas or corruptors? They see everything ages in advance and kill any viking the Terran send overlord hunting.
out-multitask them and kill creep. good army movement and multitasking better than the Z will let you do damage.
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;; going from being bad by just doing turtle mech in wol (cause every zerg I played either went for lair aggression or something so I just turtled and won eventually)
... to 4m is so hard, I don't know when I can be aggressive or not, and then sometimes it turns out even though my aggression the zerg gets like way too many ultras to deal with ;;
is there no solution to this other than "play more" (except I still won't know when to be aggressive) or just playing/trying out zerg anyways or something? @_@
it would be helpful to know when I can be aggressive, I know I'm supposedly be able to play aggressively with 2/2, but I don't specifically know, like do I just do a push with the medivacs while dropping, and then every time I get 4 medivacs done, I drop and push or something? or what, because after my initial push I'm usually like oh crap he has a lot of units, and then I start to panic and turtle which... is pretty bad for an aggressive composition... ><
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Im having problems with repairing scvs easily blocking the new thor - is this supposed to happen?
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On April 06 2013 13:17 AKomrade wrote:
Mechanics question:
I don't understand why pros go through their keys so fast. Is the goal to complete their macro cycle as fast as possible? Or just keep your hands warmed up? Isn't it distracting to constantly have your hands moving at 250+ APM while doing nothing (if you're not dropping, going through army movements).
If the goal IS to rapidly perform the macro cycles, what advantage is there of doing it faster? Units don't build any faster and you can just quickly tap once to go back to your production from your army.
2 things :
- Like anything in life, if you want to improve, you need to practice and "just do it". Smashing keys when you can is easier than doing it when your brain want to slow down (mid-late game). Ideally, people who wants to improve their APM will continue to spam during the whole game (it's the most efficient way to improve brain-hand coordination/speed ; at the beginning precision will suffer, but the more you do it, the more you get comfortable with it).
- Spamming is the most efficient way to be on top of things.
There are good videos about this on Youtube (search for Kripparian Dps cycle, it's WoW but the idea is exactly the same).
Basically = if you "just quickly tap once to go back to your production..." it means at some point you are reacting to a signal, instead of anticipate the action you need to do AFTER the one you'r doing.
Gl hf
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On April 06 2013 17:13 zhurai wrote:
;; going from being bad by just doing turtle mech in wol (cause every zerg I played either went for lair aggression or something so I just turtled and won eventually)
... to 4m is so hard, I don't know when I can be aggressive or not, and then sometimes it turns out even though my aggression the zerg gets like way too many ultras to deal with ;;
is there no solution to this other than "play more" (except I still won't know when to be aggressive) or just playing/trying out zerg anyways or something? @_@
it would be helpful to know when I can be aggressive, I know I'm supposedly be able to play aggressively with 2/2, but I don't specifically know, like do I just do a push with the medivacs while dropping, and then every time I get 4 medivacs done, I drop and push or something? or what, because after my initial push I'm usually like oh crap he has a lot of units, and then I start to panic and turtle which... is pretty bad for an aggressive composition... ><
If you can handle the micro, it's probably best to open reaper --> CC --> 4-6 hellions, and then start the normal 4M production. This way you can be aggressively out on the map from the moment your reaper is ready until they get a large number of speedlings. Roaches are too slow to catch you if you are careful, and either way you forced a lot of units.
After that, try to get mines in good positions for spotting, so you can never get attacked without knowing about it.
Beside that, it really depends what the Zerg is doing when you can be aggressive. With ling/bling/muta the mutas have the potential to keep you in your base defending, while against roach/hydra you normally want to get a couple of tanks before fighting.
In general, I think you want to be out on the map clearing creep and such almost all the time once you get a decent ball of bio. So long as your vision is good and you pay attention, it should be impossible for the zerg to flank and crush you without taking major losses from mines. IMO it's still better not to fight unless you can win and still have a threatening army, because the one thing a Zerg is looking for is a window where he feels safe for aggression to get out the ultralisks.
If you are finding you frequently get overrun by ultralisks, you probably either didn't put enough/any pressure on the Zerg, or you traded badly, giving him time to tech without being afraid to die. That said, even when 5+ ultralisks are out, the game is not over. You can still do significant damage with drops, and your bases should not be easy to take, because of chokes, ramps, PFs, mines, walls etc. So keep trading and try to deal more damage than you take, and eventually the ultralisks will run out.
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On April 06 2013 13:48 YourAdHere wrote:
How to deal with the 1 base hellbat drop with 2 medivacs+4 hellbats that hits around 8:00 when opening 15 gas->hellion drop?
Spread your units, focus the medivac, don't let him drop your army. Or you do the same build and get better defense
//n0teh
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On April 06 2013 16:40 Empirimancer wrote:
How on Earth is it possible to do Medivac drops against a good Zerg who watches the minimap, has good creep spread, has overlords over all drop paths with no ground under them, and 6+ air mutas or corruptors? They see everything ages in advance and kill any viking the Terran send overlord hunting.
I remember a moment vividly from MLG during a match which was I believe Rain vs Innovation on Cloud Kingdom, where InControl said something along the lines of 'a Terran being constantly mid-map is in their purest, most aggressive form'. That really struck a chord for me, because I believe that holds true for all the matchups. With the exception of a muta-heavy game where you need to stay back, it's so very good for the Terran to be poking and prodding at the fringes of your enemies' army/base/map control, never having them be sure whether a mine-anchored push is coming or whether there are 3 different drops converging on separate bases right now while he waits for the right time to smash the front when it's vulnerable.
What KawaiiRice said is very true: constantly kill those tumours, send out 2 drops or more at a time, buzz his creep spread... do everything in your power to ensure that he is paying attention to everything except playing the game he wants to be. Zerg want to play a game where they can hit injects calmly every half-minute and wait for you to make a mistake. If you are always poking him somewhere, he is not waiting for your mistake, you're waiting for his. And with mines and speed Medivacs, the Terran's tools for taking advantage of his mistake will be lethal when he makes it.
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Is opening with 12/14 rax defensively in TvP a viable alternative to 15 gas marine, marine, reactor?
I get my CC started at 4:20 (about 30s later than with 15 gas), followed shortly by taking both gases and a 3rd rax.
The main advantage is that I get around 10 marines at the 5:20 mark, enough to hold off an Oracle compared to 6 with the Reactor variant.
It also makes it easier to switch to Tech Labs and start Stim/CS.
I can get the Factory started around 6:20 and the Starport a minute later with Stim and CS being done when the Medivac comes out.
It does mean low tech (just marines) for a while so I do wonder if a MSC/Blink Stalker play would be more powerful against it as I will not have any Siege Tanks or Window Mines.
My other question, I saw a TvT opening where one player went for a straight up Marine/Hellion/Banshee 1/1/1 opening, attacking with about 8-10 marines, 3-4 hellions and 1 banshee at around 7 minutes followed by the Starport making a Medivac (see Drop.sc replay).
The opponent did not have Siege Tanks available but I did like the opening (somewhat like the iEchoic TvT style).
Is this opening viable as a standard TvT opening or would it die horribly against a Siege Tank?
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Here's the replay: http://ggtracker.com/matches/2724771
I lost a TvP where we're both on 2 bases and he goes 4-gate + robo. He comes in with an army about twice as big as mine with stalkers, immortals, and a few zealots vs. my marines. I scanned his expo earlier, felt pretty safe, and therefore had no bunkers up.
I made more money and spent more than him according to the stats. I think I probably spent too much on infrastructure and not enough on troops and then that infrastructure came online too late. I also think my composition was pretty bad. Obviously, there's room for tightening up my macro and build order.
Micro-wise, letting my marines get smacked by my own mines sure didn't help. Probably should have brought to scvs to repair the wall. Also, there were some idle marines. However, I feel that I should have lost that fight no matter what, at least with no bunkers.
My questions are:
1) What's the biggest cause of me putting myself at such a disadvantage when his push hit?
2) What build order changes should be made?
3) When terran and protoss are both going 2-base, how safe is terran? Are bunkers ever needed?
Other comments and advice are welcome.
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I just can't deal with mutas, no matter what I do. With Mech I get killed by mutas. With Bio/mine I get killed by Muta/Ling Bling... wtf? I had 65% winrate in TvZ in Vanilla... by far my best matchup. Now I can't win anything vs ImbaZerg.
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On April 07 2013 02:47 Julianos wrote:
I just can't deal with mutas, no matter what I do. With Mech I get killed by mutas. With Bio/mine I get killed by Muta/Ling Bling... wtf? I had 65% winrate in TvZ in Vanilla... by far my best matchup. Now I can't win anything vs ImbaZerg.
might want to take your time and formulate an actually question...
First of all with mech you should not get killed by mutas at all, because just as in WoL thors hardcounter them and as a meching player you should have enough minerals left to build enough turrets so that heavy muta play won´t damage you that much.
With Bio/mine it´s a bit harder to say because there are more factors which can lead to you losing the game (like having the wrong compositon, upgrades, timings, positioning)
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EPT
