EPTI'm looking mainly for replays of standard play and if possible for several replays of the same player executing a build, so I can have a look at different transitions and set reliable benchmarks for myself. By high level I mean professional players, preferably Koreans.
The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 40
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
I'm looking mainly for replays of standard play and if possible for several replays of the same player executing a build, so I can have a look at different transitions and set reliable benchmarks for myself. By high level I mean professional players, preferably Koreans. | ||
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Julianos
Germany11 Posts
On April 07 2013 02:54 cythaze wrote: might want to take your time and formulate an actually question... First of all with mech you should not get killed by mutas at all, because just as in WoL thors hardcounter them and as a meching player you should have enough minerals left to build enough turrets so that heavy muta play won´t damage you that much. With Bio/mine it´s a bit harder to say because there are more factors which can lead to you losing the game (like having the wrong compositon, upgrades, timings, positioning) Its not like they have 5 Mutas. If they have 20+ Even 4-5 Turrents don't do anything and Thors are fucking useless for Basedefense. Most of the Time I just have to box everything and attack. And If I'm lucky I win the Baserase, but that happened today 1 time in like 5 TvZ ...Rest I lost. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 07 2013 03:00 habermas wrote: Are there any high level recent Terran replays or replay packs available for download? There seem to be a lot of P and Z replays, but I struggle to find any Terrans. I'm looking mainly for replays of standard play and if possible for several replays of the same player executing a build, so I can have a look at different transitions and set reliable benchmarks for myself. By high level I mean professional players, preferably Koreans. Xenocider and illusion both released packs. Illusion is a fucking MONSTER at terran. Read here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406483 for rep packs | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 07 2013 03:17 Julianos wrote: Its not like they have 5 Mutas. If they have 20+ Even 4-5 Turrents don't do anything and Thors are fucking useless for Basedefense. Most of the Time I just have to box everything and attack. And If I'm lucky I win the Baserase, but that happened today 1 time in like 5 TvZ ...Rest I lost. Once the mutas reach 12-15, I get 2-3 thors immediately. Thors help zone out muta attacks on bases with marine + medic follow ups. Muta ling bling functions the same as it did in WoL. Marine tank medic thor very effective. Although now you can supplement mines instead of tanks. Only difference is mutas are a bit faster, and heal faster. Just my two cents. | ||
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Procify
United States52 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 04 2013 03:10 Liebig wrote: When should i start to stop building scv ? When your three bases are saturated, i. e. ~65-75 SCVs, i. e. ~16-20 SCVs at mineral per base (+6 for gases). Unless you head for a 2- or some early 3-bases all-ins, of course. On April 04 2013 03:42 Marathi wrote: With MMMM in TvZ I can assume I will be running into a lot of Zergs teching into Infestors to counter this. Not really actually:
Infestor play is not completely extinct, but they tend to come with Roaches rather than Zerglings. Against Roaches/Infestors, put a heavier emphasis on Marauders. For a game featuring 4M against lings/(banes)/infests, see LucifroN vs HyuN, Neo Planet S, ATC. On April 04 2013 05:33 Talack wrote: Low masters, I've only encountered it once so far. Standard 12 rax, 13 gas, fac @ 100 gas with 2 marines then reactor. Expand and pump out 6 hellions and go. Hit sometime around when you have your 6th hellion or so (bit after I believe, i might be slow) He has less roaches than normal, but you can't seem to be able to kill them since you just burrow when one gets weak and keep reinforcing. Blings came much much later so I guess you can take them out of the equation. Reactor Hellion expands are not standard, they're extinct since the Queen patch. Unless you want to use the earlier Factory for a supersonic Armory to get fast Hellbats and mech attack upgrades, thus heading for mech, you better play CC first or some kind of 1 rax expand (preferably Reaper, possibly gasless) into Reactor Factory. Sorry, I still don't get what the attack is precisely. I know burrowed Roaches attacks, Roaches attacks with 2-4 extra injects of Speedlings and Roaches Banelings busts, not some kind of combination of the three. So, assuming you're facing a Roach attack with the Burrow upgrade, you stop it with wall at natural, 1-2 Bunker(s) with SCVs ready to repair + Mines. If you have time, retreat your first 4 Hellions to hide them somewhere on the map when his Roaches start streaming, then counter his empty natural once he's gone. At home, get more defense depending on your transition: Marauders if you went bio, 2 Banshees before a Raven if you went Hellions/Banshees, Tanks if you went a second Factory, etc. Burrowed Roaches don't regenerate faster until Tunneling Claws are researched, so you don't specifically care about him burrowing his Roaches when they're on the verge of dying. Get a Turret if he enters your natural, or use Scans. If you see extra units coming with your Hellions in his natural, just get extra defense. Some games in which a Roaches push with Burrow was used: MarineKing vs Lucky, Silver Sands, GSTL Pre-season; Lucifron vs sLivko, Newkirk District, IEM; Mvp vs TLO, Star Station, IEM; Ryung vs LosirA/KangHo, Icarus, GSTL. On April 04 2013 05:35 Talack wrote: If he's going for ling/infestor just stop on marine production and focus on beefier units like battle hellion/marauder/medivac and spread out your units in a fight. He plain won't be able to kill your units with ling/infestor only unless he has like 20 infestors and is maxed on lings, even then it will be insanely inefficient for him. If it's ling/bling/infestor then once again drop the marines if you desire (you only really need them for mutalisk, vs all ground b-hellion/marauder should win vs all) and just work on improving your micro. No. You never stop making Marines by midgame. On April 04 2013 05:58 Garmer wrote: it's 1 fact-->tank(plus bunker) --> FE viable vs toss? then transition in to mech(hellbat, tanks mostly) No, Siege expands are bad against all races (too cumbersome). On April 03 2013 21:04 A Wild Sosd wrote: Hey guys, In TvP I do the 15 gas widow 2 widow mine 4 marine drop. This is all good but afterwards I feel like I have alot of marines that aren't of much use against toss. Is this normal and if not what do i do to stop it? I assume you're playing mech afterwards? Because if you're playing bio, produced Marines are useful for the subsequent Medivac push. If Protoss expanded, you can probably cut Marines at 6 if you head for mech afterwards; if not, stay on Marines/Tanks to defend whatever 1-base all-in he's doing before a mech transition if necessary. On April 05 2013 02:45 Tenks wrote: Mech trumps Bio-Tank pretty badly. If you see he is going mech I'd stop tank production. No. Bio/Tanks is perfectly fine against mech. On April 05 2013 08:29 Huragius wrote: So, I'm interested how to defend double helbat drop in TvT if you opened with any FE build, such as: 1) Gasless 1 Rax FE 2) 14 CC 3) 1 Rax Reaper FE On April 06 2013 13:48 YourAdHere wrote: How to deal with the 1 base hellbat drop with 2 medivacs+4 hellbats that hits around 8:00 when opening 15 gas->hellion drop? Make 6-8 Hellions + 1-2 Viking(s) before your bio transition, one Bunker near your CC. Leave your defence there as long as you're not 100% sure he won't come back with a second wave. LucifroN vs Center, Ohana, ATC. On April 05 2013 15:14 govie wrote: Just hit him around the 8/9 minute mark with a descent 1base push (no drop) (1/1/1 or 2/1/1 etc). A 8/9 minute push of 1 base will punish any early expanding T or P player. No. Both Terrans and Protoss have all defensive/scouting tools to expand and defend without any troubles those 1-base pushes. Marines/Tanks/Raven pushes can work against certain Terran openings, but it's mostly a gamble. On April 05 2013 20:39 Diabolical wrote: I'm having problems holding off early pressure (specifically 4gate / 6pool) using the 13gas reaper build (into FE -> Marine / Medivac, also have to build the 2nd supply depot ASAP, so can't walloff with the 2nd SD). I'm silver league and keep getting crushed by the 4gate / 6pool. I wonder if I should try to be aggressive with the reaper to counter it, I have tried this before but when I'm trying to be aggressive with the reaper, I end messing up my macro a lot (which really impacts later on). Anyway - How do I deal with 4gate / 6pools early on using the 13gas reaper build? Against 6 pool, you should start your second depot at the wall after your Barracks is complete, and the depot should be in construction when Zerg arrives, so pull extra SCVs to keep building the depot if Zerglings manage to kill the first SCV who built it. If this depot goes up, immediately repair it for an easy win. Worst case scenario, his lings/drones manage to force the wall before it's complete → mine 100 gas before fleeing on the map with all your SCVs, queue a second Reaper as soon as possible and hit & run ad infinitum with the first one. Be careful not to get surrounded with this first Reaper, and do not missclick on destructible rocks! On April 06 2013 04:21 Soldier92 wrote: I'm having a hard time lately against meching players tvt. I almost always get an advantage early when it's just hellions + a few tanks, but just can't seem to kill them. I usually go 1 rax expo into 3 rax, if I see mech I go double techlab single reactor. I guess my main question is when should I be switching to an air composition, and how many starports should I use? and secondly, are tanks necessary? In WoL I would go tankless against mech as bio had plenty mobility and firepower to deal with hellions, hellbats however are much more difficult to deal with when supported by tanks. Can pure bio/air answer mech or do you need at least some tank support? Air transitions can occur after you saturated your third base. Generally you get +2-3 Starports, build enough Vikings to reclaim air control before adding 2-3 Banshees (so you can immediately push back his Tanks if he has neither Thors nor Turrets ready), then Battlecruisers because Thors can easily deal with Banshees. On April 06 2013 06:53 Sent. wrote: What should I do if I get an early lead in TvZ? I'm intrested in punishing builds because I don't have problems with "getting more ahead" and I would like to know if I have any aggressive options. What should I do if my proxy 2 rax is succesful and he cancels/loses his natural? What can I do if he early pools and i defend my ramp without any problems? What can I do if I kill a lot of drones with 2 base blue flame hellion push? And my last question: is marauder hellion all-in still viable? Assuming you're really ahead (which is not always the case even if you kill his Hatchery with 2 rax; depends on what happened and how much you committed), kill or further cripple with Hellions/Banshees (Hellbats drops are another option if you head for mech) harass, or kill with a bio/Hellions push after expand. WoL game but watch Reality vs Zenio, Cloud Kingdom, SPL. Assuming you're really ahead, bis (because you can kill 20 Drones with a 2 fact BFH timing and still be behind or merely even):
Marauders/Hellions all-in were never really viable after the Queen/Overlord patch; they just worked from time to time against Zergs who chose to play blindly and/or reacted badly, and nothing changed in this regard. On April 06 2013 17:13 zhurai wrote: it would be helpful to know when I can be aggressive, I know I'm supposedly be able to play aggressively with 2/2, but I don't specifically know, like do I just do a push with the medivacs while dropping, and then every time I get 4 medivacs done, I drop and push or something? or what, because after my initial push I'm usually like oh crap he has a lot of units, and then I start to panic and turtle which... is pretty bad for an aggressive composition... >< You can be agressive:
On April 07 2013 02:04 Thezzy wrote: Is opening with 12/14 rax defensively in TvP a viable alternative to 15 gas marine, marine, reactor? I get my CC started at 4:20 (about 30s later than with 15 gas), followed shortly by taking both gases and a 3rd rax. The main advantage is that I get around 10 marines at the 5:20 mark, enough to hold off an Oracle compared to 6 with the Reactor variant. It also makes it easier to switch to Tech Labs and start Stim/CS. I can get the Factory started around 6:20 and the Starport a minute later with Stim and CS being done when the Medivac comes out. It does mean low tech (just marines) for a while so I do wonder if a MSC/Blink Stalker play would be more powerful against it as I will not have any Siege Tanks or Window Mines. My other question, I saw a TvT opening where one player went for a straight up Marine/Hellion/Banshee 1/1/1 opening, attacking with about 8-10 marines, 3-4 hellions and 1 banshee at around 7 minutes followed by the Starport making a Medivac (see Drop.sc replay). The opponent did not have Siege Tanks available but I did like the opening (somewhat like the iEchoic TvT style). Is this opening viable as a standard TvT opening or would it die horribly against a Siege Tank? Nope, 12/14 has only tiny windows in which it would do better against certain openings, and is much worse against the rest. No, all ground units from a gas first Banshee opening continuously producing Marines/Hellions are stopped dead by a single Bunker until the Medivac comes, so you just end up with a late expand for nothing and expanding out of 1 Marine, 1 Hellion and 1 Banshee (if possible, i. e. against another fast expand) would have been better. On April 07 2013 03:00 habermas wrote: Are there any high level recent Terran replays or replay packs available for download? There seem to be a lot of P and Z replays, but I struggle to find any Terrans. I'm looking mainly for replays of standard play and if possible for several replays of the same player executing a build, so I can have a look at different transitions and set reliable benchmarks for myself. By high level I mean professional players, preferably Koreans. Check the replays packs released here. On April 07 2013 03:17 Julianos wrote: Its not like they have 5 Mutas. If they have 20+ Even 4-5 Turrents don't do anything and Thors are fucking useless for Basedefense. Most of the Time I just have to box everything and attack. And If I'm lucky I win the Baserase, but that happened today 1 time in like 5 TvZ ...Rest I lost. What is your league? On April 07 2013 03:41 Procify wrote: What maps should we ban? Depends on your style (in particular whether you play mech or not, and how much) and personal preferences. | ||
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Magpie842
United Kingdom28 Posts
I just can't see that the upsides of having such a slow army ever outweigh the advantages of bio, because if you ever attack then you leave your bases completely open and you're too slow to get back and defend. Is there a place for all mech and if so, when is it? I watch terran players who go mech (Mario for e.g.) and it just seems like a handicap himself. I feel like with hots and the changes to mech it should be good. | ||
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
I can survive playing like that, but the problem is that this is too much resources spent so early on defense, so I get way behind; or so it seems. Is there a better way to deal with Oracles + Stalkers more effectively? Thx. Edit: So its 125 for ebay + 200-300 for turrets + 100 for bunker = 425-525 minerals, which is an insane amount for that early in the game imo. | ||
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peter22
Belarus25 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 07 2013 07:56 Thor.Rush wrote: Im a high master terran, kinda new to HotS. Im having trouble dealing with Oracles in TvP when I 1 rax FE. Whats the best way to deal with them? Ive figured that I need 2 turrets to covers the mineral line and gases and possibly 1 turret to cover the raxes. Then I need a bunker at the ramp because the Stalkers come and own the marines with the Oracles. My 2nd CC is in my main ofc. I can survive playing like that, but the problem is that this is too much resources spent so early on defense, so I get way behind; or so it seems. Is there a better way to deal with Oracles + Stalkers more effectively? Thx. Edit: So its 125 for ebay + 200-300 for turrets + 100 for bunker = 425-525 minerals, which is an insane amount for that early in the game imo. Open a delayed gas and get a widow mine or two. They zone out minerals really effectively, by one shotting oracles. It's what I had to start doing, and see many terrans do. Not many I've watched are going gasless FE in TvP, I don't think. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On April 07 2013 08:16 peter22 wrote: can you guys recommend me a good safe cheeseproof 2v2 build? It really depends on the maps, some lend themselves more to macro and some less. On most maps only one player should be playing an expand build while the other plays 1 base for a while. Even greedy expand builds can be fine as long as your partner is making units to make up for it, and you adjust your build (getting more production/units early on and getting a bunker if necessary). Personally I would recommend reaper openers because they give you scouting and force your opponent to keep some stuff at home, as well as giving you quick gas for tech(safe) after you expand. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
Currently I'm keeping the reactor on the rax until the port nears completion, and then getting tech lab and stim immediately with that rax. With the fact I'm immediately going for a tank and not doing any swapping. This is all to go into bio tank play. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On April 07 2013 05:34 TheDwf wrote: No, Siege expands are bad against all races (too cumbersome). i was believing that without siege upgrade, it was becoming more relevant | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
On April 07 2013 19:08 Garmer wrote: i was believing that without siege upgrade, it was becoming more relevant I think the problem with tank expand in TvP is the threat of early air which has become more popular. You would struggle a lot with oracle harass, void ray allins and immortal busts with mothership core assisting for high ground vision. You need to either have lots of marines and/or widow mines vs oracles with a tank expand opening you will have few marines and little to no widow mines. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Could Marauders/Hellbats be of use or would I still need to get Tanks? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 07 2013 20:29 Marathi wrote: I think the problem with tank expand in TvP is the threat of early air which has become more popular. You would struggle a lot with oracle harass, void ray allins and immortal busts with mothership core assisting for high ground vision. You need to either have lots of marines and/or widow mines vs oracles with a tank expand opening you will have few marines and little to no widow mines. I don't agree with this at all. Siege expand with an early engineering bay against double gas works really well against toss. I personally don't believe opening siege expand is bad at all, I do it in all three matchups. | ||
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Sprite825
France57 Posts
(I wanted to look at polt's play because I really like it,but there is no vod on his twitch...) | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On April 07 2013 07:56 Thor.Rush wrote: Im a high master terran, kinda new to HotS. Im having trouble dealing with Oracles in TvP when I 1 rax FE. Whats the best way to deal with them? Ive figured that I need 2 turrets to covers the mineral line and gases and possibly 1 turret to cover the raxes. Then I need a bunker at the ramp because the Stalkers come and own the marines with the Oracles. My 2nd CC is in my main ofc. I can survive playing like that, but the problem is that this is too much resources spent so early on defense, so I get way behind; or so it seems. Is there a better way to deal with Oracles + Stalkers more effectively? Thx. Edit: So its 125 for ebay + 200-300 for turrets + 100 for bunker = 425-525 minerals, which is an insane amount for that early in the game imo. With a gasless 1 rax fe it is very difficult to hold oracle pressure. The problem is not only in the commitment you mention to hold it, but also with a 2 gas protoss build and a stalker denying its very hard to tell what he's actually opening, ie oracle expand, 3 gate oracle bust, 3 gate void bust, dts, robo gateway timing, mothership core stalker poke expand. So you either play safe and end up behind or risk dying. The viability of 1 rax expands is discussed heavily in the op under "are gasless expands still viable" and "how do you deal with oracles". 1 rax expand is much more dangerous these days. Most people Ive seen open 1 rax reaper expand or 1 rax reactor expands. Given widow mines 1 shot oracles gas expands are much more common. Personally I open cc first as a vaguely similar gasless expand build. Its a relatively common opening in korea and I feel its a little stronger vs oracles though still difficult. Some examples of the build are Ryung versus Mc in gstl, note Ryung holds oracle pressure (http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls1/vod/72096/?set=7) MKP versus Seed games 1, 2 and 4 (http://sc2casts.com/cast11989-MarineKing-vs-IMSeed-Best-of-5-MLG-Winter-2013-Exhibition-Round-of-16) , MKP versus Huk games 1 and 2 (http://sc2casts.com/cast12053-MarineKing-vs-Huk-Best-of-5-MLG-Winter-2013-Exhibition-Quarter-Finals) There are plenty more examples around the place I build sup depots on the corner of my base to try and see oracles coming early, so I can pull scvs faster. I put the tech lab rax researching stim wherever is likely to be safest from oracle damage. 6 marines kill an oracle, so from 6 minutes I will have at least 6 either in the main or on the ramp so I can react faster. Eventually I get a turret at each base (or just the main with the army covering the natural). I also scout aggressively for proxies and get an earlier engi bay than I would have in WoL. | ||
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BaaL`
297 Posts
On April 07 2013 21:11 Sprite825 wrote: hey guys, I'm a diamond terran struggling to find a nice bo per match up with wich I can practice hard on ladder. I would like to have one build by mu mainly evolving in safe macro bio play(mixed with mines/tank/ghost, vicking depending of the mu). I looked at the bo at the beginning of the first post, but I feel like they are all very greedy, or too agressive... (I wanted to look at polt's play because I really like it,but there is no vod on his twitch...) You could open 12rax 13gas then FE in all match-ups, it's a good standard opening for all 3. Then for TvT you need a factory obviously and can just go into bio/mech whichever you prefer. TvP you should do the standard pressure at around 10:00-10:30 (this is a standard timing, you can have stim and +1 attack and 2 medivacs out, while P can't have storm realistically - if he has a colossus you normally need to retread and take a 3rd). This is done with 5 barracks and reactor starport usually, with the 3rd CC after 3 barracks if you want to be defensive, or after 5 if you want to put on the pressure. In TvZ transition into bio+mine, very standard as well. You should have at least one big push before hive tech, usually around 13-14m. | ||
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