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On April 03 2013 00:58 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:51 Everlong wrote:
Do you guys think something like Hellbat/Thor/Medivac/Mine would work TvP and TvZ? I'm gonna try something like this today probably. Anyone tried something similar? i usually go marine/hellbat/medivac and im winning most of my games @ high masters and vs gm's with that composition
doesnt it make more sense to go marauder hellbat medivac? (okay i guess you can mix in some marines as well)
which matchup, I feel like in tvp hellbat marauder (still with some marines but not as many as usual) is better than hellbat marine as youve already got the hellbats to deal with zealots so you dont need to be marine heavy?
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On April 03 2013 16:14 Talack wrote:
Roach/Ling/Bling all ins combined with burrow(for weak roaches) if you're going for hellion opener.
Is the hellion opener just not viable anymore or what's the correct opener to be safe against this. The burrow heal makes it go from stoppable to way over the top so far in my experience.
Im trying to find this out myself 
I personally initially make 2 hellions, then a hellion and a mine and usually by the next production round i can tell if an all-in is coming and try and make 2 more mines.
if you are going hellion banshee you can always get a raven after the first banshee to clear up the roaches.
I always put the widow mines behind my bunker so you cant suicide units to detonate them, also make backup bunkers and try and mass repair like hell. If you can manage to totally wall your natural before the attack comes this is great (I often use my barracks that made reactor for factory and techlab for starport as part of the wall if I have time) especially against the roach burrow shenanigans as it stops them just running by your bunker and then burrowing themselves behind your natural minerals.
I find I often still take damage, dead scvs from repairing from early zerg pressure but usually I don't outright lose the game.
I have noticed I can do siege tanks after expanding and take no damage from early zerg pressure and auto-win versus all-ins but then I have no way of pressuring a zerg who plays super greedy like I do with hellion banshee and no map control so I think any siege tank openings are not good unless you are playing at a level where you dont have to worry about your opponents creep spread too much.
although this is still something i often take too much damage from myself so take my advice with a pinch of salt, and if you feel like you can beat greedy zergs in a macro game at your level and are just dying to the cheesy early aggression....then you should definitely go siege tank after expanding (if you opened reaper you can often suicide your reaper to check their gas, if they have mined significantly more than 100 gas...sometimes they leave just one drone on gas after initial hundred for quicker lair...and are still mining with 3 drones theyre probably planning to all-in...otherwise you can feel safe to open how you feel, just watch out for mass speedling but with decent hellion control this shouldnt be a problem!)
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On April 03 2013 13:58 nobodywonder wrote:Hi, I have a quick question? How do you scout against DT's? I just owned in a recent game, and it felt terrible. http://drop.sc/317236I scouted with my reaper, and I went back after seeing what I thought was the momma ship core building. Then I went back to check for any proxy. After not scouting a proxy, I went back and saw the expand. I guess I prolly should have suicided the reaper into the main, but are there any other things I could have done or noticed (perhaps those subtle things)?
first thing, your repaer didnt really do what it was supposed to do. I personally would say scout first, go for worker kills 2nd. You're going to kill at most 1 or 2 probes versus outright losing the game, like you did. Especially if his stalker you spot in his base, if his stalker is halfway across the map you can maybe go for a probe kill or two but not when the stalker is that close. When theres only 1 stalker out you want to be able to do a full circuit of the base and get out alive to reheal and suicide yourself later.
You didnt spot his 2nd gas which tells you that its probably not a fast expo and could be a various number of cheeses but doesnt narrow it down too much. But if you had circuited the base your reaper is timed so that he has to have a third pylon building, if you only see two pylons in his base there is a proxy and you must find it.
when your reaper killed his probe out on the map, surely you must have been curious why the probe was coming from that angle, spot a probe travelling along a weird path, follow where it came from and you should find the proxy. Your reaper did spot his expansion but it was late telling you something was up, 1 gate expos usually plant the nexus between 4-5 minutes i think, certainly not 5:55. although a late expo like this could just be a defensive play, robo before expand because scared of widow mines.
but yeah the biggest tell is no third pylon and double gas (it can be proxy stargate, robo, or dt tech though so make sure you find the proxy). You must check almost every corner of the map, hell even send an scv out to scout as well, its so vital to know what proxy you are facing as they have totally different responses.
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On April 03 2013 11:32 SuPerFlyTNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 07:16 govie wrote:On April 01 2013 22:53 SuPerFlyTNT wrote:On April 01 2013 22:41 govie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 01 2013 20:09 eMGmoG wrote:I found this build to be awesome vs Z. It gives you map control and scouting, you can defend allins pretty good with it (make mines instead of hellions if you scout any 2 base allin). If Z plays greedy, you can punish him with runbys, if he plays to defensive, your eco will skyrocket you into a stomping win. Take 1-2 scvs with your hellion/reaper army in the early game. then you can poke and heal/repair. If you dont have the apm to do that, just camp watchtowers and his 3rd so you know whats coming. Reaper Expand with Hellions into Bio Widow Mine(Innovation Vs Leenock) - 12 Rax - 12 Gas - Reaper(x2) - CC after 2nd Reaper - Factory - Reactor on Rax - 3rd CC - Hellion(x6) - Techlab on Rax - Start Stim ASAP - 2nd Gas when Stim starts - Use Factory to make another 2 Reactors - Double Rax - Double E-Bay - Starport - Double Gas After Starport Start Demuslim has a slick biomine build aswell. Looks alot like it, but the factory doesnt build both reactors and gets more gas early on. His gas/mineral-timings are perfect till 3/4th base (so thats about 15min. ingame). It's amazing to watch just how well gas/mineral income and spending is balanced in his build (and play). Is it documented anywhere? Got it from stream just now. His gas and minerals stayed zero above the 15 minute mark, amazing. DeMuslim: I Crush Zergs Everywhere With This Opening : Terran Is Op Build 10 depot
12 rax --> build 1 reaper
12 gas
16 orb
17 CC
18 Reactor on rax
20 Factory --> when done place it on reactor --> 2 to 6 hellions depending on the flow of the game --> 24/7 mine production
21 CC
After this point u have the following fases in the build :
A. Double e.bays + 2nd gas
B. Wall off natural with a bunker behind it.
C. 6 rax in total (2techlab, 4 reactors) +starport
D. Take 3rd and build 1 turret per mineralline for defensive purposes
E. 1 factory + 1 starport (both reactored)
Keep expanding, building extra rax and factories (he gets above 11 rax, 3 factories and 2 starports in a 20 minute game on 5 bases).Govie at your service! Thanks! =) I'm sure I'm not the only one who will appreciate it.
Well i forgot the 3rd/4th gas timing but u will figure it out i guess. Demuslim saturation is exactly 16 for each base, it will give u a indication of when to the the 3rd/4th gas.
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Hey guys, In TvP I do the 15 gas widow 2 widow mine 4 marine drop. This is all good but afterwards I feel like I have alot of marines that aren't of much use against toss. Is this normal and if not what do i do to stop it?
On April 03 2013 13:58 nobodywonder wrote:
How do you scout against DT's?
Hey I just had a look at your replay and the one most crucial thing that I noticed at the start of the game was that you didn't check his 2nd gas at all. Whenever I see a toss with 3 probes in 2 gases that early it sets off alarm bells in my head and I send a marine or SCV to common proxy locations to check for a stargate or in your case a Dark Shrine. You also didn't really see any of his main after the first reaper. Anyway that just my platinum opinion lol.
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Hi everyone,
I use a reaper FE in TvZ, followed up by reactored factory and a 3rd CC, as usual. Do I have to scout with an scv with this or is scouting with the first reaper enough? If so, what exactly should I be looking for with the reaper?
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On April 03 2013 22:18 Tyral wrote:
Hi everyone,
I use a reaper FE in TvZ, followed up by reactored factory and a 3rd CC, as usual. Do I have to scout with an scv with this or is scouting with the first reaper enough? If so, what exactly should I be looking for with the reaper?
No need for scv scout when going for reaper.
1. How many expo's,
2. Gastimings, check the extractor how much gas is out, and if and when he is researching speedlings (u can see if the building is doing something.
3. Tech. Banelings or roaches etc.
p.s. im no master
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On April 02 2013 15:33 zhurai wrote:Hey thedwf in the TvP section for recommended buildorders Show nested quote +Some kind of Reaper expand into 1-1-1 (or at least Factory) with a bio transition. Polt vs Creator, Akilon Wastes, IPL FC 48; Polt vs HerO, Entombed Valley, MLG Showdowns. the polt vs hero game I see there, he goes reaper into quick stim+bio, not 1/1/1
Thanks, fixed.
On April 02 2013 20:37 Marathi wrote:Love the updated OP, will be a great reference Are you planning to include allin builds per matchup as per the WoL thread? Also, when I go CC first in TvZ in my 2base marauder/hellion allin I am struggling with pressure from zergs who go for a pool before their hatch. Am I better building my CC in base, or going 1rax FE with the same follow up? )))))
There would not be much content since the new scouting/defensive tools make one-base all-ins in TvP easily defendable, except perhaps the most agressive proxies 11/11 on certain maps. For TvT, it heavily depends on the openings, and it's the same: if he goes some kind of Reaper expand into 1-1-1, he will see your opening and be able to prepare accordingly while remaining ahead thanks to his expands (jjakji vs MarineKing at the MLG, without even needing the Reaper).
If many Zergs go pool first at your level, you can SCV scout after depot to determine whether you should build your CC lowground or as part of the wall.
On April 02 2013 23:37 tisalgado wrote:
I believe it's worth to mention on the OP that several widow mines can be focused on a same target as long as it is in range of them all... (like right clicking with 5 of them on a single ultralisk so they 1shot it)
Thanks, added.
On April 03 2013 01:59 AndySCWilson wrote:
In TVP at what time should their nexus be going down, UNLESS they're 1 base all-ining me?
-Andy
Check the "Timings" section in "How do you deal with Oracles?" Consider that later than that is all-in or at least heavy pressure requiring specific defense from your part.
On April 03 2013 11:27 zhurai wrote:
so for TvP
the reaper into 3rax build that was linked (that polt did)
is this vulnerable to say, mothership core+stalker harass with this opener (if not, how would you react to it?), given you make an early techlab, etc?
You should be fine with the Bunker. You can always build it highground if you want to be completely safe. Voluntarily showing your Reaper so Protoss leaves one unit at home (thus weakening the poke) is also possible.
On April 03 2013 16:14 Talack wrote:
Roach/Ling/Bling all ins combined with burrow(for weak roaches) if you're going for hellion opener.
What is this? Never saw that. What league? At which timing does it hit? What precise build order did you go?
On April 03 2013 22:18 Tyral wrote:
Hi everyone,
I use a reaper FE in TvZ, followed up by reactored factory and a 3rd CC, as usual. Do I have to scout with an scv with this or is scouting with the first reaper enough? If so, what exactly should I be looking for with the reaper?
On April 03 2013 22:31 govie wrote:
2. Gastimings, check the extractor how much gas is out, and if and when he is researching speedlings (u can see if the building is doing something.
3. Tech. Banelings or roaches etc.
This. SCV scout is possible but you can skip it if you don't plan to go for heavier pressure. Check if he mines beyond 100 gas or not, and if he does try to look behind his mineral lines as he may try to hide a possible building there (can also be that he goes Lair with the 100 next gas).
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I'm really lost with how/when to move out and attack in a game. I'm a low-level gold player (just recently moved up from silver, where I rolled), and I feel like I am paralyzed into staying in my base, never attacking, harassing, or even scouting. What eventually happens is that wave after wave of attack hits me and I slowly lose economy and eventually die out.
I generally go bio and I feel like my macro is ok for the league I'm at, as I generally have a bigger army than those attacking me. I just get worn down over time, and I feel like I have to stay back or I lose. Any help would be awesome.
Thanks!
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On April 04 2013 01:16 SkyShooter wrote:
I'm really lost with how/when to move out and attack in a game. I'm a low-level gold player (just recently moved up from silver, where I rolled), and I feel like I am paralyzed into staying in my base, never attacking, harassing, or even scouting. What eventually happens is that wave after wave of attack hits me and I slowly lose economy and eventually die out.
I generally go bio and I feel like my macro is ok for the league I'm at, as I generally have a bigger army than those attacking me. I just get worn down over time, and I feel like I have to stay back or I lose. Any help would be awesome.
Thanks!
To general to answer, be more specific.
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I have started to play sc2 again for 2 months after having stopped for almost 2 years. I feel like i have good mechanics since i have been diamond before the break and now i got back to plat, however it hinders me during late game, meaning I have lost a few games recently due to having too many scv (~110-120) and therefore having less army. How do you deal with that ?
When should i start to stop building scv and when should i sacrifice them ? When i'm on 4 bases, 5 bases ?
Thanks :o
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On April 04 2013 03:10 Liebig wrote:
I have started to play sc2 again for 2 months after having stopped for almost 2 years. I feel like i have good mechanics since i have been diamond before the break and now i got back to plat, however it hinders me during late game, meaning I have lost a few games recently due to having too many scv (~110-120) and therefore having less army. How do you deal with that ?
When should i start to stop building scv and when should i sacrifice them ? When i'm on 4 bases, 5 bases ?
Thanks :o
you should strive for about 67ish scvs( 3 base saturation).
Once you start adding orbital commands, you can sacrifice some scvs.
I would add that overmaking scvs is definitely better than undermaking them.
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With MMMM in TvZ I can assume I will be running into a lot of Zergs teching into Infestors to counter this - what will be the best way to deal with Infestors as MMMM? I used to love playing the heavy marine drop style back in WoL before Infestors got really popular and really struggled once they did start to get used.
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Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 16:14 Talack wrote:
Roach/Ling/Bling all ins combined with burrow(for weak roaches) if you're going for hellion opener.
What is this? Never saw that. What league? At which timing does it hit? What precise build order did you go?
Low masters, I've only encountered it once so far.
Standard 12 rax, 13 gas, fac @ 100 gas with 2 marines then reactor. Expand and pump out 6 hellions and go.
Hit sometime around when you have your 6th hellion or so (bit after I believe, i might be slow)
He has less roaches than normal, but you can't seem to be able to kill them since you just burrow when one gets weak and keep reinforcing. Blings came much much later so I guess you can take them out of the equation.
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On April 04 2013 03:42 Marathi wrote:
With MMMM in TvZ I can assume I will be running into a lot of Zergs teching into Infestors to counter this - what will be the best way to deal with Infestors as MMMM? I used to love playing the heavy marine drop style back in WoL before Infestors got really popular and really struggled once they did start to get used.
If he's going for ling/infestor just stop on marine production and focus on beefier units like battle hellion/marauder/medivac and spread out your units in a fight. He plain won't be able to kill your units with ling/infestor only unless he has like 20 infestors and is maxed on lings, even then it will be insanely inefficient for him.
If it's ling/bling/infestor then once again drop the marines if you desire (you only really need them for mutalisk, vs all ground b-hellion/marauder should win vs all) and just work on improving your micro.
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On April 04 2013 05:33 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 16:14 Talack wrote:
Roach/Ling/Bling all ins combined with burrow(for weak roaches) if you're going for hellion opener.
What is this? Never saw that. What league? At which timing does it hit? What precise build order did you go? Low masters, I've only encountered it once so far. Standard 12 rax, 13 gas, fac @ 100 gas with 2 marines then reactor. Expand and pump out 6 hellions and go. Hit sometime around when you have your 6th hellion or so (bit after I believe, i might be slow) He has less roaches than normal, but you can't seem to be able to kill them since you just burrow when one gets weak and keep reinforcing. Blings came much much later so I guess you can take them out of the equation.
This happened to me a few times, but without banelings.
It is very deathly, when unscouted, but I can't really see any difference in preparation, compared to a normal roach allin.
(a player used to playing against this may recognize the lower roach count and put down an ebay asap)
If you keep reinforcing with hellions while seeing roaches, you are going to have a bad time anyways if he decides to attack you, burrow or not...
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it's 1 fact-->tank(plus bunker) --> FE viable vs toss? then transition in to mech(hellbat, tanks mostly)
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Hey guys. This is a very basic question really. I'm gold league at the moment but progressing solidly and have beaten platinum and diamond players quite a bit recently. I'd like to broaden my style by embracing CC first builds in HOTS (for maps like Whirlwind, Korhal city and occasionally others) and I need a starting point. I throw a depot and then the CC around 15 supply (going from memory) and then I just kind of move into gas, raxes, factory + starport but with other builds I feel far more confident and 'tight'.
Can someone suggest a good CC first opening for HOTS? I tend to favor bio if that makes any difference.
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On April 03 2013 16:28 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:58 Pulimuli wrote:On April 03 2013 00:51 Everlong wrote:
Do you guys think something like Hellbat/Thor/Medivac/Mine would work TvP and TvZ? I'm gonna try something like this today probably. Anyone tried something similar? i usually go marine/hellbat/medivac and im winning most of my games @ high masters and vs gm's with that composition doesnt it make more sense to go marauder hellbat medivac? (okay i guess you can mix in some marines as well) which matchup, I feel like in tvp hellbat marauder (still with some marines but not as many as usual) is better than hellbat marine as youve already got the hellbats to deal with zealots so you dont need to be marine heavy?
its TvZ, i mix in a couple of marauders from 1 barrack with the techlab to tank some damage. Need alot of marines obv
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EPT
