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On October 15 2014 04:13 Dynamitekid wrote: Question for the high level Terrans. Which composition do you have a hard time dealing with, Roach + hydra or Mutaling/bane?
Muta ling bane is harder to play against, but a roach hydra style that doesn't fall over late game can be tough too. So do a normal 2-2 timing attack when you're maxed but also tech hive and vipers to deal with tanks and don't overcommit your army.
In my experience, against a good roach hydra player, I win in one of two ways:
1) I play defensive, trade some units etc and get 3-3 while he's still on 2-2 and has no hive tech 2) He takes a poor engagement when I have a lot of tanks and I can just outmacro him
So basically, the keys to avoiding this are 1) get hive tech so you can start 3-3, and 2) get hive tech so you can make vipers before you die to 8-10+ tanks with his bio.
The other option is to just gear towards a 2-2 maxed timing, because you'll usually hit 2-2 before terran and if you don't engage terribly your army will be stronger. This is a little risky though because if he sets up tanks uphill/at a choke you will trade poorly and he'll get 3-3 faster than you.
i hate good muta bling players, when they know where my army is so that they can harass with mutas at the right time, constant counter attacks, burrowed banelings. And overall good trading of small groups of units to get maximized effectiveness of banelings vs widow mines...fortunately those kinds of zergs are few and far between
On October 17 2014 09:10 NexT_SC2 wrote: Could someone tell me a macro tvz build order in the current meta? Preferably one of Innovation's builds. Btw I'm a gold player aiming for plat.
Thanks
Diamond player here. Everytime I try the old school INnoVation 3CC double upgrades into mass barracks, I have a super hard time. It seems this style has been figured out by Z's.
In the latest pro TvZ's I watched, I think most T players now open reaper expand, then helions into either 2 more racks, or hellbat timing, or banshees or something else (mine drop, etc). I might be wrong, but I feel like the straight up, "passive" 3CC double ups into mass barracks is not the standard anymore. My advice would be to either add more barracks before the 3rd CC, or go helion banshee into 3CC to be able to be more aggressive earlier.
But this is just my subjective feeling, I'd wait for a better player to confirm/infirm this.
On October 17 2014 09:10 NexT_SC2 wrote: Could someone tell me a macro tvz build order in the current meta? Preferably one of Innovation's builds. Btw I'm a gold player aiming for plat.
Thanks
INnoVation builds are hella hard, you can try them for fun but you have to :
-micro your reaper -use your helions to kill tumors and harass -keep pumping scv -keep producing marines and upgrade -constantly lifting your factory to build reactors for the next barracks -upgrading as fast as possible -scout possible roach bane all ins
It's really a lot of multitask between 5 an 10 minutes, and each time you miss a beat you make yourself very weak against possible 10 pushes from the zerg, and even if he doesn't push you, you negates the advantages of this build which is to build everything you need as fast as possible to be insanely strong in mid game.
You certainly heard stuff like "INno is weak vs raoch bane all ins", well with his sick mechanics and micro he's not that weak at all, but you on the other hand might find yourself in great troubles if you try it.
Ofc if you manage it nicely you ll be in a dominant position at 11 mintues with upgrades 3 CCs, and plenty of barracks, but in gold league, it's not worth it IMHO.
Better go for CC first builds they require less APM and give all economy and production you need.
when fact finishes build starport when reactor finishes : swtich with facto, build a techlab (for starport)
when techlab finishes lift up and build another one for stim.
when spatio is finished : cloack + banshee (bench mark : banshee out at 7'30)
At this point you have your helions harassing his front (don't loose them!!) send your cloacked banshee in his natural
(2nd banshee can be handy to put a big pressure on his 3rd with like 2 banshees and 6-8 helions)
around when the first banshee is started you have enough minerals to start your third.
Then :
go for 2 Ebays (greedy version) and then 2 raxes or first build the 2 rax first and then ebays (safer)
you add 2 gazes after you start the ebays.
In both case when you build 2 rax, you lift the facto to free the reactor - build rax3 there, then start a new reactor with the facto near rax 3. when ebays are ovr you can build rax 4 and 5 (facto helping with reactors too)
don't forget shield when stim is finished.
In case of all in :
vs speed banes : helions + bunkers and 1 banshee is enough vs roach banes : bunkered marauders (at your level always start one marauder after you started stim, put him the bunker just in case) + banshee should do, but you can also put the facto on the spatio's tech lab to build an emergency tank.
Anyway I totally stole this build from MMA when he all killed Team liquid in Acer team story cup 2013 finals - vods and replays must be available somewhere. Watch them!
Note : you can do the same opening and transision into mech if you fancy to
On October 17 2014 09:10 NexT_SC2 wrote: Could someone tell me a macro tvz build order in the current meta? Preferably one of Innovation's builds. Btw I'm a gold player aiming for plat.
Thanks
Diamond player here. Everytime I try the old school INnoVation 3CC double upgrades into mass barracks, I have a super hard time. It seems this style has been figured out by Z's.
In the latest pro TvZ's I watched, I think most T players now open reaper expand, then helions into either 2 more racks, or hellbat timing, or banshees or something else (mine drop, etc). I might be wrong, but I feel like the straight up, "passive" 3CC double ups into mass barracks is not the standard anymore. My advice would be to either add more barracks before the 3rd CC, or go helion banshee into 3CC to be able to be more aggressive earlier.
But this is just my subjective feeling, I'd wait for a better player to confirm/infirm this.
Most players play this style or a similar style, and for a long time. As a result zerg players have become proficient in playing against this style and in designing cheeses/builds/timings to abuse it. It doesn't mean you can't win with it, but you'll definitely give yourself an edge if you open differently. If you just wanna improve and make it hard on yourself keep playing this style.
So 2 Base all in's Or 3 rax/Fac/Starport/ 2x Ebay before 3rd CC is safer and a better way to go? I thought T stopped doing this because we fall behind in macro.
On October 17 2014 21:43 Usmc0302 wrote: So 2 Base all in's Or 3 rax/Fac/Starport/ 2x Ebay before 3rd CC is safer and a better way to go? I thought T stopped doing this because we fall behind in macro.
Hmmm no? I don't think anybody said this...
Just said that in gold league one may not have the mechanics required to executed the ultra greedy Innovation builds...
and anyway the key point is often rax before ebays or ebays before rax, in any case you never ever go "3 rax/Fac/Starport/ 2x Ebay before 3rd CC", unless you want to be all in...
On October 17 2014 21:43 Usmc0302 wrote: So 2 Base all in's Or 3 rax/Fac/Starport/ 2x Ebay before 3rd CC is safer and a better way to go? I thought T stopped doing this because we fall behind in macro.
Getting early banshees helps defend some allins, but the main point is that if you play the same way that zergs are used to then they're going to be more comfortable. If you change things up and show them different looks you'll gain a metagame advantage.
On October 17 2014 09:10 NexT_SC2 wrote: Could someone tell me a macro tvz build order in the current meta? Preferably one of Innovation's builds. Btw I'm a gold player aiming for plat.
Thanks
I'd agree with the other guys here. The super fast triple CC builds aren't really oriented well for gold league. Things need to be absolutely on point with how you take gases, get upgrades, constantly make reactors with your factory, make scv's, and this whole time you need to be sure you aren't being all in'd because if you are you are likely going to die unless you play some immaculate defense. That's the biggest thing too is because of the league you are VERY LIKELY to play against people going early aggression. I don't often recall seeing three fast hatches in gold league. Granted as you learn to play around with your reaper and early hellions you will become proficient at recognizing two base attacks because of the slowness of the third base for the zerg.
I'd honestly do what someone else recommended and throw down two more rax instead and choose to be quite aggressive in the mid game. If he DID decide to attack early you will have a lot of early production to help stifle his aggression OR if he played greedy you'll very likely be able to kill a third.
I say take the third immediately after your mid game VERY strong 10 ish minute push with medivacs stim/cs/+1 attack on 1 ebay is how I used to do it. Don't lose the hellions...keep them alive and well for this push. It drastically increases how effective it is.
And I think it needs to be posted every month that you need to PRESPLIT against zerg. Sometimes I forget it myself and take bad engagements but it is finally becoming habit.
Biggest change ever in every engagement against zerg that I've ever taken because of pre-splitting.
On October 18 2014 03:31 Grizvok wrote: And I think it needs to be posted every month that you need to PRESPLIT against zerg. Sometimes I forget it myself and take bad engagements but it is finally becoming habit.
Biggest change ever in every engagement against zerg that I've ever taken because of pre-splitting.
My TvZ rises and falls in direct correlation to my use of pre-splitting. I've thrown away numerous games by getting overexcited and stimming in an army when I am winning, instead of just keeping everything split and pushing forward with only a small group of units.
On October 18 2014 03:31 Grizvok wrote: And I think it needs to be posted every month that you need to PRESPLIT against zerg. Sometimes I forget it myself and take bad engagements but it is finally becoming habit.
Biggest change ever in every engagement against zerg that I've ever taken because of pre-splitting.
On October 18 2014 03:31 Grizvok wrote: And I think it needs to be posted every month that you need to PRESPLIT against zerg. Sometimes I forget it myself and take bad engagements but it is finally becoming habit.
Biggest change ever in every engagement against zerg that I've ever taken because of pre-splitting.
well tbh it's true in every match up
That's one of the things I have problems with in TvP. I don't often enough get that sick concave, but I have been focusing on that aspect much more recently and the difference is actually huge. The amount of units that the Protoss AoE hits is so much smaller and on top of that it gives you extra micro potential by being able to effectively micro back a specific couple of units out of Colossus range and then reengage them so that the next volley is focused elsewhere. As well if you micro back in such a manner the protoss may also make the mistake of pushing out a bit too far with his blink stalkers and not be in range of the Colossus fire and trade poorly.
I love the Cure build. I've been finding TvP really fun by ramping up aggression on two bases.
On October 18 2014 07:43 Grizvok wrote: I love the Cure build. I've been finding TvP really fun by ramping up aggression on two bases.
What is this Cure build you speak of? I need to get back on the wagon with TvP; I've been doing this really stupid cheese start for a few seasons to "skip" the match up -- 90%+ win rate against diamond and masters just because it's really dumb and unexpected. I'd like to actually start playing the match up again, though.
On October 18 2014 07:43 Grizvok wrote: I love the Cure build. I've been finding TvP really fun by ramping up aggression on two bases.
What is this Cure build you speak of? I need to get back on the wagon with TvP; I've been doing this really stupid cheese start for a few seasons to "skip" the match up -- 90%+ win rate against diamond and masters just because it's really dumb and unexpected. I'd like to actually start playing the match up again, though.
What, pray, is this cheese you speak of? The Cure build, if I'm correct, is the one he used vs Zest in the Ro16 of the GSL? http://www.twitch.tv/gsl/b/562381175
On October 18 2014 07:43 Grizvok wrote: I love the Cure build. I've been finding TvP really fun by ramping up aggression on two bases.
What is this Cure build you speak of? I need to get back on the wagon with TvP; I've been doing this really stupid cheese start for a few seasons to "skip" the match up -- 90%+ win rate against diamond and masters just because it's really dumb and unexpected. I'd like to actually start playing the match up again, though.
What, pray, is this cheese you speak of? The Cure build, if I'm correct, is the one he used vs Zest in the Ro16 of the GSL? http://www.twitch.tv/gsl/b/562381175
EPT
