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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
Oracle into gold base expo vs toss Roaches into gold base 3rd into MASS roach into roach hydra viper Aside from a terrible one base all in, how do you keep a zerg or toss of the gold base when they do these builds? VODS + Show Spoiler + polt vs revival: Bomber vs alicia: | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
I actually faced the same build today, and my personal response was using my factory for siege tanks instead of widow mines, and doing a siege push against the gold as I took my own gold (Polt went for the normal mineral third expecting mutalisk play). Whether that's the most efficient response, someone better than me could probably tell you (I only play against low Masters in NA), but it worked out well enough for me. | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
Proxy Oracle in the Gold ala Alicia, Bomber just didn't scout what was going on properly because Alicia went gas before gateway. The early first gas let him delay his second gas by quite a bit so Bomber didn't realize Alicia had enough gas for Stalker + Stargate at that timing. Bomber's opening was actually really weird, 1 rax expand into gas into rax into fact? I think he knew something weird was going on but he wasn't sure what because he only saw the one gas, so the oracle caught him really offguard. Without a critical mass of marines or turrets, especially once his army got pulled out of position by the zealot + stalker, Bomber didn't really have a response to the Oracle. edit: I think if they open Roach and take the gold as their third it makes it easier to punish them with drops too because your drops can easily move between all three of their bases with a smaller travel distance than the roaches have to defend. Polt just took one bad engagement and suddenly didn't have the army he needed to achieve that anymore. | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
I am looking for 2 Vods / Replays: First: A recent Reaper Expand with 3 CCs without Banshee (I don't really know but Most Terrans I saw stay on 3 Rax till around 9+ Minutes, is this ok? Seems like too few production). Second: The same Build but this time not macro centric but vs a heavy commitet Roach Bane Allin (I want to see how this is hold without Banshees and taking too much losses as your raxes are delayed in comparison to lets say cc first). Tyvm.  | ||
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Ake_Vader
Sweden58 Posts
On April 13 2014 21:29 forsakeNXE wrote: Hey! I am looking for 2 Vods / Replays: First: A recent Reaper Expand with 3 CCs without Banshee (I don't really know but Most Terrans I saw stay on 3 Rax till around 9+ Minutes, is this ok? Seems like too few production). Second: The same Build but this time not macro centric but vs a heavy commitet Roach Bane Allin (I want to see how this is hold without Banshees and taking too much losses as your raxes are delayed in comparison to lets say cc first). Tyvm. For the standard reaper expand you could have a look at an episode of Improve with Apollo which handles TvZ and that build. As for holding vs roaches I'd say cut hellions and start going for mines/marauder/marines as soon as you realise roach commitment and bunker up in your main. I'm sure someone else will have a replay/VOD eventually tho. | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
On April 13 2014 23:22 Ake_Vader wrote: For the standard reaper expand you could have a look at an episode of Improve with Apollo which handles TvZ and that build. As for holding vs roaches I'd say cut hellions and start going for mines/marauder/marines as soon as you realise roach commitment and bunker up in your main. I'm sure someone else will have a replay/VOD eventually tho. Thank you very much but the video you linked me to is a cc first and no reaper expand? I am still doing innovation cc first into triple cc and may want to switch to reaper expand but as i face alot of cheeses some days (around 3k p master) i am kinda suspicious how to handle roaches and busts with reaper as the rax are 1-2 minutes later than with cc first. And all i get from that are 2-3 Reaper (depending on my preference i guess) and therefore delay my raxes. I know that this gives me more pressure vs macro openings of zergs compared to my cc first (obviously derp :D ), but i feel like the delayed raxes would make me really vulnerable to busts. I also feel like once I see the roaches with my reaper/hellion squad its too late to bunker up and start mines / marine etc. So that makes me feel that a banshee is almost necessary vs these plays. So then again thats why I want them vods / replays showing how you can do it vs Roach Heavy attacks without the banshee and cc first after comitting to the reapers + hellions and delaying the raxes. Sorry for repeating myself several times but I hope its now clear what kinda replays/vods i am looking for. Tyvm once again. | ||
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pali_
Germany48 Posts
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
So yesterday i played a tvp (high dia level) on yeonsu. I obviously went for the unique opening terran can do, the infamous reaper expand. I see 2 gases, 2 probes on each, with initial scv scout. Then, i see expand, i go main with reaper and i see council on the way. Reaper barely manages to survives. I decide to go again later with the reaper just in case he cancels council, cause it happens sometimes. My hero reaper sees council done and chronoboosted and die to msc + stalker. Pretty standard. I prepare for 2 base blink allin. 2 bunkers main + 2 bunkers natural + scv pull autorepair. When i realize he will not attack me, i go out with my infantery + 2 medivacs and i see a third mining. Because i just realize i was obvioiulsy behind, i decide to engage his third and get easely wrecked by speedlots, sentries, templars and msc.... I leave the game because now im behind on every apsect of the game: ecowise, armywise, upgradewise, tech wise, etc...wise Not to mention protoss didnt scout me the entire game. I got the feeling i lost this game because i scouted well, wich is obviously absurd, but still... Is there any way to deal with this? What is the best possible response? Is there any way to know if protoss is researching blink or chargelot? THx | ||
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B-rye88
Canada168 Posts
On April 14 2014 02:07 sage_francis wrote: HI, So yesterday i played a tvp (high dia level) on yeonsu. I obviously went for the unique opening terran can do, the infamous reaper expand. I see 2 gases, 2 probes on each, with initial scv scout. Then, i see expand, i go main with reaper and i see council on the way. Reaper barely manages to survives. I decide to go again later with the reaper just in case he cancels council, cause it happens sometimes. My hero reaper sees council done and chronoboosted and die to msc + stalker. Pretty standard. I prepare for 2 base blink allin. 2 bunkers main + 2 bunkers natural + scv pull autorepair. When i realize he will not attack me, i go out with my infantery + 2 medivacs and i see a third mining. Because i just realize i was obvioiulsy behind, i decide to engage his third and get easely wrecked by speedlots, sentries, templars and msc.... I leave the game because now im behind on every apsect of the game: ecowise, armywise, upgradewise, tech wise, etc...wise Not to mention protoss didnt scout me the entire game. I got the feeling i lost this game because i scouted well, wich is obviously absurd, but still... Is there any way to deal with this? What is the best possible response? Is there any way to know if protoss is researching blink or chargelot? THx Hey SF, From the sounds of it, while you spent time building a strong army on two bases your opponent played greedier with the intention of getting a third up. Because of this, while his army is very strong in a heads up engagement (templars and chargelots are very impressive), his army isn't particularly BIG, and since he has expanded he has increased the total area he is required to defend. I'd be using my bio army in multiple pronged attacks designed to thin his army out to defend multiple locations. I'd be looking to snipe tech and probes, while keeping an eye out for lonely templars which can be picked up for free. In the meantime, my macro focus would be on a 3rd CC, upgrades, and a ghost academy before rax 4/5, while attempting to keep him pinned back with my bio pressure. Since I'd be fairly greedy at home, a primary focus of my attack would be to keep my stuff alive; I'm looking to do free damage where possible, but more than anything I'm looking to keep him at his base with the threat of a drop or attack if he moves out. The other option IMO would be to forego the 3rd cc, get the ghost academy and further production, and utilize the pressure more aggressively while you build a 2base army with ghosts and then attempt to kill him. Since his third is already mining when you push out, I doubt this is viable. The main scouting options for blink v charge are his army and other tech options. A robo play lends more towards blink, a templar play lends more towards charge, and obvs if his army is full of zealots he's likely not going to research blink . | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
/rage | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On April 14 2014 21:02 Saechiis wrote: Wtf is up with oracles? I don't get the downisde as it can scout, give detection and harass at the same time. I keep losing to Protoss who go with an oracle expand and don't run their oracles into my marines, they come at 5:30 with 1 oracle and I have exactly 6 marines by then (going 15CC), they just avoid my marines and go straight for the other base, they're way too fast to keep up with, it sucks ass. With 2 rax into double gas I can't get any tech out in time to deal with the oracle and if I go turrets I just don't have any infrastructure. /rage I guess you're building the expo CC at the natural, right? Why not just build it in your main to be able to protect it with those 6 marines as well? The way higher safety should make up for the few seconds more to float the CC to the natural instead of building it there. On a sidenote, as I don't like to fight Oracles with Marines (because for my taste too many Marines die, if he commits), I do a Widowmine expand. The expo is a bit delayed, but I don't have to fear any Oracles. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
PS the new maps seem to have really difficult to take 3rds, how would I get a 3rd up? | ||
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Alvas
United States309 Posts
So I've been away for a while, but never been higher than top tier silver, and trying to get into Gold this time around. Hopefully I can manage to keep playing consistently without taking a few months away and feeling like I have to start all over. I know the general advice is to learn a single build and master it, using it to open up all games because at the lowest levels it's more about who has the best mechanics rather than 100% optimized builds. I'm a Terran player, and I've always been a bio build player. I'm relatively comfortable tech switching when I need to, but I always go for bio builds, in all matchups. What would be a good opening for me to learn and master? I know Reaper FE seems to be the go-to Terran opening. Is that what I should be learning to master for a bio build? What kind of timing attack does that allow for, because I know that base rushing is a thing in the bronzie/silver leagues. I know a lot of people don't love giving advice to newbies like me around here, so I apologize for the ignorant questions. Just trying to get back into the game, I've never found a strat game as fun/addicting as SC2. | ||
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forsakeNXE
Germany539 Posts
On April 14 2014 22:40 Saechiis wrote: I've been losing to roach hydra as well. I have a style mostly aimed at dealing with ling baneling muta with agressive marine play and a transition to mech on 3 base. When my opponent goes roach hdyra I suddenly have no idea what to do, attacking has resulted in me getting squashed, do I turtlee to 200/200 mech and drop? PS the new maps seem to have really difficult to take 3rds, how would I get a 3rd up? If you open Bio like Marine / Mine / Medivac kinda style you really should and need to add tanks to defeat roach hydra. Once you get up to 6-7 tanks move out and force a trade. (you should be maxed at that point normally). This trade will force the zerg to remark more roach hydra to stay alive which prevents him from adding vypers / infestors or other tech units. Its important to get your macro together, as you will run into vypers which will hurt your tank compositioning if you take more time than you should to get up to that siege tank count. From there on out its pretty rough. On April 14 2014 23:56 Alvas wrote: Hey guys, So I've been away for a while, but never been higher than top tier silver, and trying to get into Gold this time around. Hopefully I can manage to keep playing consistently without taking a few months away and feeling like I have to start all over. I know the general advice is to learn a single build and master it, using it to open up all games because at the lowest levels it's more about who has the best mechanics rather than 100% optimized builds. I'm a Terran player, and I've always been a bio build player. I'm relatively comfortable tech switching when I need to, but I always go for bio builds, in all matchups. What would be a good opening for me to learn and master? I know Reaper FE seems to be the go-to Terran opening. Is that what I should be learning to master for a bio build? What kind of timing attack does that allow for, because I know that base rushing is a thing in the bronzie/silver leagues. I know a lot of people don't love giving advice to newbies like me around here, so I apologize for the ignorant questions. Just trying to get back into the game, I've never found a strat game as fun/addicting as SC2. Reaper FE should be fine. I am a fan of advicing low level players to focus solely on improving instead of winning. This means that you should set yourself basic goals and focus on them most of all. E.g. you can start with "get 50 scvs at 10 minutes" and if you do that all the time you have reached your goal. If you lose the game it does not matter. Then progress to not getting supply blocked until 200 supply WHILE STILL focusing on 50 scvs at 10 minutes. Then get all your tech and stuff at 10 minutes + 50 scvs + no supply blocks. Then focus on being maxed at 14:30 with upgrades etc. etc. then focus on getting your build down to the wire and build just on step at a time. If you want you can practice that vs AI, too. But focus on macro and one thing at a time. Build Order does not really matter as more stuff normally wins in lower leagues. Just play it safe and dont focus on fancy micro but solid macro. glhf | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On April 14 2014 23:56 Alvas wrote: Hey guys, So I've been away for a while, but never been higher than top tier silver, and trying to get into Gold this time around. Hopefully I can manage to keep playing consistently without taking a few months away and feeling like I have to start all over. I know the general advice is to learn a single build and master it, using it to open up all games because at the lowest levels it's more about who has the best mechanics rather than 100% optimized builds. I'm a Terran player, and I've always been a bio build player. I'm relatively comfortable tech switching when I need to, but I always go for bio builds, in all matchups. What would be a good opening for me to learn and master? I know Reaper FE seems to be the go-to Terran opening. Is that what I should be learning to master for a bio build? What kind of timing attack does that allow for, because I know that base rushing is a thing in the bronzie/silver leagues. I know a lot of people don't love giving advice to newbies like me around here, so I apologize for the ignorant questions. Just trying to get back into the game, I've never found a strat game as fun/addicting as SC2. Try this out, safe fairly easy to execute opening that can lay foundations for a bunch of other openings- 10 Depot (Rally SCV on 9 Supply to wall) 12 Rax (Use the SCV that built the Depot) 12 Gas (Rally SCV on 12 Supply) 15 Orbital, Reaper 16 Depot (Use the SCV that built the Barracks) @100% Reaper Reactor 18-19 Command Center Benchmark 4:00- Command Center Started, Reactor ~ halfway done, 1 Reaper 17 SCVs Constant Marine Production from Barracks Barracks Bunker Engineering Bay (Feel free to mess with the order in which you get the second rax / bunker / eng bay, I feel like this is the safest overall though) Tech Lab (on Barracks) +1 Attack, Stim Factory 2x Refinery Benchmark 6:30- Factory 1/3 complete, 2x refinery started, ~23 SCVs, ~8 Marines, stim and +1 attack started @100% +1 Attack +1 Armor @100% Factory Reactor (on Fact), Starport @100% Stim Combat Shields @100% Starport Swap Starport onto Factory, start Medivac production Benchmark 9:30- ~45 SCVs, 2 Medivacs, ~25 Supply in Marine / Maurader, Stim and +1 attack complete, Combat Shields +1 armor on the way. From here, you'll start having a mineral excess so add on a third CC, an armory and second engineering bay, 3 more barracks, an add-on to your factory (tech lab vT or vZ for tanks, reactor vZ or vP for widow mines or hellbats, your choice) and take your fourth gas. Should all happen by 10:30 or so. After you've saturated your third add on another ~5+ production facilities (Typically 3 rax 2 fact vT/vZ or 5 rax vP). How to Play- Only use the reaper to get into his base and check for Tech / Units / Expansions, literally just run around his base and then leave, dont try to do damage or anything until you can hit the benchmarks pretty consistently since controlling the Reaper can mess you up more than your opponent if you aren't constantly producing behind it. Since this build gets a quick engineering bay, if you scout banshees / oracle / dt / ect you can easily add in 1-2 turrets (cut SCVs and delay the second barracks / bunker if you need too, dont delay marine production) If you lose your reaper drop a scan around 6:00 just to be safe. If you scout Protoss still on one base by 6:00 evacuate your natural and add a bunker or two to the top of your ramp. Make sure to keep your reaper by his natural to see when he expands. Your production with this build wont really pick up until 12-13 minutes or so when your next 3 rax complete, so if you encounter a bunch of units with your initial push out at 9:30 just pick up your army in the medivacs and fly home. It's really important to keep up unit production behind your pushes, this should really be your #1 priority. Hope this helps | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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mihajovics
179 Posts
On April 15 2014 02:26 Pursuit_ wrote: Try this out, safe fairly easy to execute opening that can lay foundations for a bunch of other openings- 10 Depot (Rally SCV on 9 Supply to wall) 12 Rax (Use the SCV that built the Depot) 12 Gas (Rally SCV on 12 Supply) 15 Orbital, Reaper 16 Depot (Use the SCV that built the Barracks) @100% Reaper Reactor 18-19 Command Center Benchmark 4:00- Command Center Started, Reactor ~ halfway done, 1 Reaper 17 SCVs Constant Marine Production from Barracks Barracks Bunker Engineering Bay (Feel free to mess with the order in which you get the second rax / bunker / eng bay, I feel like this is the safest overall though) Tech Lab (on Barracks) +1 Attack, Stim Factory 2x Refinery Benchmark 6:30- Factory 1/3 complete, 2x refinery started, ~23 SCVs, ~8 Marines, stim and +1 attack started @100% +1 Attack +1 Armor @100% Factory Reactor (on Fact), Starport @100% Stim Combat Shields @100% Starport Swap Starport onto Factory, start Medivac production Benchmark 9:30- ~45 SCVs, 2 Medivacs, ~25 Supply in Marine / Maurader, Stim and +1 attack complete, Combat Shields +1 armor on the way. From here, you'll start having a mineral excess so add on a third CC, an armory and second engineering bay, 3 more barracks, an add-on to your factory (tech lab vT or vZ for tanks, reactor vZ or vP for widow mines or hellbats, your choice) and take your fourth gas. Should all happen by 10:30 or so. After you've saturated your third add on another ~5+ production facilities (Typically 3 rax 2 fact vT/vZ or 5 rax vP). How to Play- Only use the reaper to get into his base and check for Tech / Units / Expansions, literally just run around his base and then leave, dont try to do damage or anything until you can hit the benchmarks pretty consistently since controlling the Reaper can mess you up more than your opponent if you aren't constantly producing behind it. Since this build gets a quick engineering bay, if you scout banshees / oracle / dt / ect you can easily add in 1-2 turrets (cut SCVs and delay the second barracks / bunker if you need too, dont delay marine production) If you lose your reaper drop a scan around 6:00 just to be safe. If you scout Protoss still on one base by 6:00 evacuate your natural and add a bunker or two to the top of your ramp. Make sure to keep your reaper by his natural to see when he expands. Your production with this build wont really pick up until 12-13 minutes or so when your next 3 rax complete, so if you encounter a bunch of units with your initial push out at 9:30 just pick up your army in the medivacs and fly home. It's really important to keep up unit production behind your pushes, this should really be your #1 priority. Hope this helps thx, as a returning player after a 5-6 month hiatus, I really appreciate this! | ||
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