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The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 269

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
April 10 2014 17:46 GMT
#5361
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 10 2014 17:56 GMT
#5362
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...


Depending on your build, 6 marines and/or a widow mines would solve your problems. Also, in pretty much all cases do not transfer workers to your natural until the protoss has expanded.
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 10 2014 17:58 GMT
#5363
On April 11 2014 02:30 d_runk wrote:
Thanks for the help guys, I met a fast roach-speedling build again, although it wasn't a 1base allin and it was a bit late as well, but building the second cc in the main and pushing out two fast tanks helped to hold it with only a handful of marines dancing around a bunker to keep the roaches within range of the tanks :D. I transitioned into 2 more rax and a naked starport and won easily with a stim-medivac-5 tank timing (I heard it on a qxc VOD that you need at least 5 tanks to pack a punch against midgame zerg) against his bane roach ling (I never realised how easily tanks kill banes ) . So thanks a lot once more.


Glad to hear you got the advice you needed!

Dunmer
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom568 Posts
April 10 2014 19:22 GMT
#5364
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.
All Ireland Starcraft, check us out on Facebook
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-10 20:06:26
April 10 2014 20:05 GMT
#5365
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
April 10 2014 23:59 GMT
#5366
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.
Twitter: @iamcaustic
PinheadXXXXXX
Profile Joined February 2012
United States897 Posts
April 11 2014 00:58 GMT
#5367
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.
Taeja the one true Byunjwa~
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 11 2014 01:29 GMT
#5368
On April 11 2014 09:58 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.


So he's going to 10 gate, then proxy a pylon, then proxy a stargate, AND scout you on a 4 player base, then chrono an oracle, while you get a fast expansion.

Who cares if he does some damage? He needs to do TONS of damage to equalise.
Dunmer
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom568 Posts
April 11 2014 12:36 GMT
#5369
Plus if you went reaper you can see no units and lack of pylons and its instantly going to be proxy oracle. Ebay straight away and you can hold with minimal loses.
All Ireland Starcraft, check us out on Facebook
Gumdrop
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States35 Posts
April 11 2014 17:04 GMT
#5370
Can anyone link me to a write of how to properly do a modern reaper/hellion/banshee build in TvZ? Complete with add-on swappy stuffs?
"Once more unto the breech dear friends, once more!"- Hamlet's King Henry
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
April 11 2014 21:44 GMT
#5371
On April 11 2014 10:29 B-rye88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 09:58 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.


So he's going to 10 gate, then proxy a pylon, then proxy a stargate, AND scout you on a 4 player base, then chrono an oracle, while you get a fast expansion.

Who cares if he does some damage? He needs to do TONS of damage to equalise.


Yeah but if you have 4 marines you just die, you cant kill the oracle, a second one is on the way and maybe even a stalker walking to your base
KingofGods
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-11 21:59:28
April 11 2014 21:59 GMT
#5372
On April 12 2014 02:04 Gumdrop wrote:
Can anyone link me to a write of how to properly do a modern reaper/hellion/banshee build in TvZ? Complete with add-on swappy stuffs?



11 rax
11 gas
reaper, reaper, expo, reaper, factory, 2nd gas, reactor on rax, starport, tech lab on rax

B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 11 2014 22:36 GMT
#5373
On April 12 2014 06:44 Aquila- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2014 10:29 B-rye88 wrote:
On April 11 2014 09:58 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.


So he's going to 10 gate, then proxy a pylon, then proxy a stargate, AND scout you on a 4 player base, then chrono an oracle, while you get a fast expansion.

Who cares if he does some damage? He needs to do TONS of damage to equalise.


Yeah but if you have 4 marines you just die, you cant kill the oracle, a second one is on the way and maybe even a stalker walking to your base


Right, but by the time he comes back around you've built a bunker in your mineral line, and since you haven't scouted an expansion you haven't maynarded workers to your natural, and you're happily building SCVs and building tech within firing range of the bunker.

He needs to do tons of damage to equalise the economy here. Given two CC's, you need to be damn near dead for him to make it worth it.
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 11 2014 22:42 GMT
#5374
As an aside... this is such a non-standard build and given he needs to scout you won't pop up on frost very often... so even if it were undefendable when he hits you as fast as is possible, why is this such a big deal when it's almost never going to happen?
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
April 11 2014 22:47 GMT
#5375
On April 12 2014 07:42 B-rye88 wrote:
As an aside... this is such a non-standard build and given he needs to scout you won't pop up on frost very often... so even if it were undefendable when he hits you as fast as is possible, why is this such a big deal when it's almost never going to happen?


You wouldnt believe how many kids on ladder do that. Almost every TvP on frost I play against some proxy, and it varies between oralce, DT and blink. Anyway I just need to play safer, thanks for tips guys.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
April 12 2014 00:00 GMT
#5376
On April 12 2014 06:59 KingofGods wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 02:04 Gumdrop wrote:
Can anyone link me to a write of how to properly do a modern reaper/hellion/banshee build in TvZ? Complete with add-on swappy stuffs?



11 rax
11 gas
reaper, reaper, expo, reaper, factory, 2nd gas, reactor on rax, starport, tech lab on rax


Any reason for not going 12/12 at the start?
owned4ursake
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia59 Posts
April 12 2014 01:23 GMT
#5377
On April 12 2014 09:00 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 06:59 KingofGods wrote:
On April 12 2014 02:04 Gumdrop wrote:
Can anyone link me to a write of how to properly do a modern reaper/hellion/banshee build in TvZ? Complete with add-on swappy stuffs?



11 rax
11 gas
reaper, reaper, expo, reaper, factory, 2nd gas, reactor on rax, starport, tech lab on rax


Any reason for not going 12/12 at the start?


11 rax allows for earlier reaper and also you can get 3 instead of the usual 2 so you can put on more pressure
3 reapers wreck drones and queens
PinheadXXXXXX
Profile Joined February 2012
United States897 Posts
April 12 2014 01:30 GMT
#5378
On April 12 2014 07:36 B-rye88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 06:44 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 10:29 B-rye88 wrote:
On April 11 2014 09:58 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.


So he's going to 10 gate, then proxy a pylon, then proxy a stargate, AND scout you on a 4 player base, then chrono an oracle, while you get a fast expansion.

Who cares if he does some damage? He needs to do TONS of damage to equalise.


Yeah but if you have 4 marines you just die, you cant kill the oracle, a second one is on the way and maybe even a stalker walking to your base


Right, but by the time he comes back around you've built a bunker in your mineral line, and since you haven't scouted an expansion you haven't maynarded workers to your natural, and you're happily building SCVs and building tech within firing range of the bunker.

He needs to do tons of damage to equalise the economy here. Given two CC's, you need to be damn near dead for him to make it worth it.

Here is what happens if you have only 2 marines when the oracle arrives:
you won't have a bunker up in time, so then you lose the four marines and as you run your workers around the oracle kills around 12 scvs until it runs out of energy. If the protoss is smart he kills the scv building the bunker so it won't get up for a while. Meanwhile, he builds a stalker, mothership core, and second oracle. You are now down in workers, and you have a bunker up in your mineral line with probably 6-8 marines. He just attacks your barracks, supply depot, and you just die, espeically if he follows up with extreme greed or some kind of blink build. Imo the only way to properly defend that kind of oracle attack is if you scout the stargate IMMEDIATELY and then build a bunker in the mineral line asap, and then you end up losing around 12 workers and come out semi-even.
Taeja the one true Byunjwa~
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
April 12 2014 02:28 GMT
#5379
On April 12 2014 10:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2014 07:36 B-rye88 wrote:
On April 12 2014 06:44 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 10:29 B-rye88 wrote:
On April 11 2014 09:58 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
On April 11 2014 08:59 iamcaustic wrote:
On April 11 2014 05:05 Aquila- wrote:
On April 11 2014 04:22 Dunmer wrote:
On April 11 2014 02:46 Aquila- wrote:
TvP on frost, I scout him last position, get denied by stalker, see he is 1 base, make ebay, boom an oracle flies into my base and I am dead because he proxied it somewhere. Is this really supposed to be fair or am I doing something very wrong? By the time I reach his base I already would need to have a turret started, it also could be blink or DT but I cant know that...

If you went 12/12 reaper Fe and 14 scout you can send your reaper to the last position and either your scv or reaper will get in on time. What build did you go because that determines how to scout/defend.


Well I went 15 gas reactor expand so I have 6 marines but I still cant know what he is doing so turrets wont be in time and he can make a second oracle. If I go reaper then I will have only 4 marines which is not enough and I dont think turrets will be up either. Not to mention I cant even know its oracle, as I said it could be DT or blink too.

If you go reaper, you can scout all positions faster (no stalker deny). If you go reactor, you'll have enough marines to deflect the initial oracle, and simply build more marines and/or get a couple mines to deflect additional ones. Aside from that, you're looking for stalker count: lots of stalkers means blink, so don't get an ebay. Few units and/or sentries means something else, so get an ebay and a turret or two to be safe; use your ebay to research +1 attack.

Comes down to unit counting, yo.

If he goes 10 gate stargate with no stalker or core before oracle, the oracle gets out of the stargate at around 5:05 and if you scout him last you don't have time to build an engineering bay, nor will you have 6 marines. As i remember you only have 2 if it is proxied really close but on frost you can probably get up to four, but that still isn't enough.


So he's going to 10 gate, then proxy a pylon, then proxy a stargate, AND scout you on a 4 player base, then chrono an oracle, while you get a fast expansion.

Who cares if he does some damage? He needs to do TONS of damage to equalise.


Yeah but if you have 4 marines you just die, you cant kill the oracle, a second one is on the way and maybe even a stalker walking to your base


Right, but by the time he comes back around you've built a bunker in your mineral line, and since you haven't scouted an expansion you haven't maynarded workers to your natural, and you're happily building SCVs and building tech within firing range of the bunker.

He needs to do tons of damage to equalise the economy here. Given two CC's, you need to be damn near dead for him to make it worth it.

Here is what happens if you have only 2 marines when the oracle arrives:
you won't have a bunker up in time, so then you lose the four marines and as you run your workers around the oracle kills around 12 scvs until it runs out of energy. If the protoss is smart he kills the scv building the bunker so it won't get up for a while. Meanwhile, he builds a stalker, mothership core, and second oracle. You are now down in workers, and you have a bunker up in your mineral line with probably 6-8 marines. He just attacks your barracks, supply depot, and you just die, espeically if he follows up with extreme greed or some kind of blink build. Imo the only way to properly defend that kind of oracle attack is if you scout the stargate IMMEDIATELY and then build a bunker in the mineral line asap, and then you end up losing around 12 workers and come out semi-even.


Why won't you have a bunker up in time? 12/12 reaper -> reactor expand the bunker is built immediately following your second depot and comes up right around/prior to 5m mark (fastest oracle is in your base at 5m05s). If you haven't scouted your opponent with a 12/12 reaper expand in the nearly 100s you have well enough to note that

a) he has no units
b) has alot of gas
c) has spent all of his chrono on shit that's not in his base
d) has fewer pylons
e) essentially what I'm getting at here is it should be fairly freaking obvious that you're being proxied

and you don't get the bunker up in your mineral mine, well, then, yeah you lose, but it's your own fault.

For those who are worried about "dt? blink? oracle?" it should be fairly obvious by the time you hit the first scout for oracle, as there are NO UNITS produced in order to hit with a 2nd pylon proxy oracle. You also get free probe kills with the reaper which is pretty sweet.
SonGoku
Profile Joined September 2013
Germany152 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 14:38:09
April 12 2014 14:31 GMT
#5380
Hey, anyone have a solid tvp replay of polt or innovation? most recent als possible pls so I can take a look on the build they do, so it should be some standard-ish play. Im so bad at finding replays :/
edit: replays should be after the widow mine buff, so current meta ^_^
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